Integrated Programme (IP)
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zac's mum\" post_id=\"2016340\" time=\"1614660086\" user_id=\"53606:[quote=\"zac's mum\" post_id=2016340 time=1614660086 user_id=53606]
Currently,
Just throwing out a thought. What if the “streaming”/selection for IP program were to take place at end Sec 3 instead of end P6?
Wouldn’t that be a better predictor of A level results being able to qualify for local U?
Those that score in the top 10% based on end Sec 3 results...get to go IP (create a new name if u wish) and skip O levels.[/quote]
there already exists a path, for end of Sec 2 students from O-level path, to join the IP track, if students desire, wish to.
End of Sec 2 is the correct timing to join IP, not wait until end of Sec 3 so long then come & join,
because
subject combination in all O-level Secondary schools in Singapore start at the end of Sec 2 final year exam, not end of Sec 3.
Besides,
having spent 2 solid years already inside the O-level track itself, tackling Total 8 to 10 subjects concurrently, by the time these Sec 2 students reach year end, they themselves are mature enough, able to know very well whether they should continue stick back to the O level track, or they are cut out for IP, can attempt a new adventure into IP. They will know for themselves, how ready they are.
Sec 2 students are different from P6 PSLE students
because
Sec 2 students are facing the actual reality placed before them, having to see how well they themselves can manage to cope with 8 to 10 subjects, with or without tuition,
unlike
P6 students tackling only 4 subjects so few, and most of the time is the parents who intervened to helped them make decision.
In fact, there are some students who actually would have benefited much more if they were to join O-level instead, but sadly, their parents kind of \"forced\" them into IP, having this wrong mindset that O-level is \"second class\" students. -
Oh the reason why I suggested end Sec 3 was because that would be after 1 year of taking their specialized subject combi. So if they score well top 10% in this subject combi, can probably assume they will ace O levels and can skip it…proceed straight to JC.
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floppy\" post_id=\"2016339\" time=\"1614659850\" user_id=\"97579:
And the 4% is assuming that the 700 pupils could make it to the U, if I m correct. IP standards should be higher, first time looking at the O Chemistry last night and I seriously feeling mental block!
But that would mean ACSI, SJI, MGS, SOTA and SSP totaled only 700 pupils taking IB every year.MrsKiasu\" post_id=\"2016335\" time=\"1614657634\" user_id=\"43981:
Dont think they mention abt the numbers of drop out..
First, the 4k includes A, IB etc..Then 3300 is those taking A. Unable/not entering autonomous U is 165..if my understanding is correct..
Considering that these are some of the brightest kids, 4% not making the cut to university doesn’t bode well. It’s also a warning button for parents choosing IP to consider the suitability of the programme for the child. -
The 2013 PSLE cohort was ~43,000. All of the IP programmes were up and running then although I don't know if they were the same size as now? So would the starting IP cohort size be 4,300 or 4,000 or lower (compared to 2019 A Levels)?
I did not include SOTA or SSP in the totals. Based on MOE's IP page, these two schools are not included.
https://www.moe.gov.sg/secondary/courses/express/integrated-programme#integrated-programme
I also thought the ACSI/MGS/SJI implied IB figure would be lower than the total number of IB exam takers at these schools since this is only the \"IP\" student intake (and not those that joined IB later). I don't know the exact figure but was guessing ~600 across these three schools plus NUSH.
Lastly, I assumed the 3,300 excluded students that dropped to O Level classes but ultimately took A Levels 2 years later. -
zac's mum\" post_id=\"2016340\" time=\"1614660086\" user_id=\"53606:[quote=\"zac's mum\" post_id=2016340 time=1614660086 user_id=53606]
The intent of IP is to allow the students to broaden their learning experience in both academic/ non-academic areas during the secondary school years. Since they don't need to take the O-levels, they theoretically have more time to do other stuff.
Just throwing out a thought. What if the “streaming”/selection for IP program were to take place at end Sec 3 instead of end P6?
Wouldn’t that be a better predictor of A level results being able to qualify for local U?
Those that score in the top 10% based on end Sec 3 results...get to go IP (create a new name if u wish) and skip O levels.[/quote]
If only the final year is doing IP, then it kinda defeats the purpose since the first 3 years would have been spent preparing for the O-levels.
Unless the intent is to merely increase the % of \"new-IP-or-whatever-the-new-name-is\" students getting into the local U via A-levels. -
Zappy\" post_id=\"2016365\" time=\"1614667902\" user_id=\"134817:
I was under the impression that the current IP program was started with the rationale that those selected kids (top 10% of the cohort, based on PSLE score) would be the exact same segment of the population predicted to enter local U anyway. So they are given IP track and allowed to skip O levels.
The intent of IP is to allow the students to broaden their learning experience in both academic/ non-academic areas during the secondary school years. Since they don't need to take the O-levels, they theoretically have more time to do other stuff.zac's mum\" post_id=\"2016340\" time=\"1614660086\" user_id=\"53606:[quote=\"zac's mum\" post_id=2016340 time=1614660086 user_id=53606]Just throwing out a thought. What if the “streaming”/selection for IP program were to take place at end Sec 3 instead of end P6?
Wouldn’t that be a better predictor of A level results being able to qualify for local U?
Those that score in the top 10% based on end Sec 3 results...get to go IP (create a new name if u wish) and skip O levels.
If only the final year is doing IP, then it kinda defeats the purpose since the first 3 years would have been spent preparing for the O-levels.
Unless the intent is to merely increase the % of \"new-IP-or-whatever-the-new-name-is\" students getting into the local U via A-levels.[/quote]
I am guessing that the parliamentary qn (and the qn on many ppl’s minds) is becos unless there is 100% accuracy in prediction (ie. The outcome of all these IP kids being able to qualify for local U), then IP serves its purpose. But we are seeing 4% of these IP kids sitting for A levels NOT scoring well enough to enter the easiest course in any local U (bearing in mind, the JCs are stringent & typically do not let their students take A levels if they are insufficiently prepared. Eg. They will force students to drop 1 subject if they are predicted to fail it at A level exam).
Reference:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120124212708/http://moe.gov.sg/education/secondary/other/integrated-programme/
“While the GCE ‘O’ Levels serve as a valuable intermediate benchmark for the majority of our pupils, [U]those who are clearly university-bound[/u] can benefit from engaging in broader learning experiences during their Secondary and JC years. The Integrated Programmes (IP) will provide an integrated secondary and JC education where secondary school pupils can proceed to JC without taking the GCE ‘O’ Level Examinations. Schools offering IP will optimise the time freed up from preparing for the GCE ‘O’ Levels to stretch pupils and provide greater breadth in the academic and non-academic curriculum. However, these schools will continue to have school-based assessments to measure pupils’ progress.”
Hence I thought PSLE score is far too early to screen suitable candidates who are “clearly university bound”. End Sec 3 may be better indicator of how they can independently handle their tertiary education. -
Do bear in mind that the university Cohort Participation Rate (i.e. the number of places in local universities, subsidized) is 40% (and rose slightly to 42% last year due to additional places at universities created in view of Covid).
The actual proportion of a cohort who has degree qualification is much higher than 40% - after adding in (1) those on scholarships, as well as self-financing students who go overseas, which is not an insignificant number and (2) those who take up private university courses in Singapore.
So it is not wrong to ‘assume’ or plan on the basis that the IP cohort, given that most of them are at the top 10% at the PSLE stage, should progress on to university eventually.
I think the key in MOE’s policies is that there are many pathways. Even if you are not in the IP programme, many will still make it to the universities, whether ‘screening’ at O levels, A levels, Poly etc - there are pathways to get you to the university. Some longer, some more direct. PSLE is just one of the ‘screening’ points and even then, it is not a guaranteed path. -
zac's mum\" post_id=\"2016374\" time=\"1614670622\" user_id=\"53606:[quote=\"zac's mum\" post_id=2016374 time=1614670622 user_id=53606]
Well, you're not wrong... I suppose that the initial assumption has to be that these kids will be the same group, hence free up their time to broaden their other experiences.
I was under the impression that the current IP program was started with the rationale that those selected kids (top 10% of the cohort, based on PSLE score) would be the exact same segment of the population predicted to enter local U anyway. So they are given IP track and allowed to skip O levels.
Reference:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120124212708/http://moe.gov.sg/education/secondary/other/integrated-programme/
Hence I thought PSLE score is far too early to screen suitable candidates who are “clearly university bound”. End Sec 3 may be better indicator of how they can independently handle their tertiary education.[/quote]
In the reference link, it does say that
\"Schools offering IP will optimise the time freed up from preparing for the GCE ‘O’ Levels to stretch pupils and provide greater breadth in the academic and non-academic curriculum.\"
Even in the current MOE website, it says \"As students need not sit for the GCE O-Level examination in Secondary 4, they will engage in a broader range of learning experiences in both academic and non-academic areas.\"
https://www.moe.gov.sg/secondary/courses/express/integrated-programme
So while they can screen/ stream at Sec 3, there's really not much point and time to allow this broadening of learning experiences to only take place in Sec 4. -
Just to share -
In the IP program - they can accelerate the process / teaching …
And by end Sec 2 (Year 2)- can finished the O level syllabus.
As the kids learn faster and retain better (the traits of smarter kids) - we can give them more work and in greater depth.
For example
When I was teaching in RGS Year 1 Science. I was teaching them Chemical formula and bonding.
This is usually taught in Sec 3 Chem Term 2.
So they are far ahead
In NUSH - then when my children were there under Prof Lai’s time
They learned mole concept in Year 1 (in Main stream school - this is taught at end of Sec 3 or Start of Sec 4)
By Year 2 - they have enough knowledge to take the GCE O levels.
There were also some A level physics that were taught in Year 1
and Some Uni Mathematics concepts that were taught in Year 1 too.
Resilience LC
Mr Matthew Ng -
ResilienceLC\" post_id=\"2016406\" time=\"1614691188\" user_id=\"191449:
My opinion as a mother, not a teacher:
Just to share -
In the IP program - they can accelerate the process / teaching ..
And by end Sec 2 (Year 2)- can finished the O level syllabus.
...
They \"can\", I suppose, but I don't think they do. My daughter was in RGS a few years ago, but I doubt things would have changed drastically. From what I saw, some topics are taught earlier than in the O level syllabus, but equally, some topics might be covered later. Overall, they probably do more than the O level syllabus, but it didn't seem that they completed the O level syllabus in 2 years. And then what would they spend the other 2 years doing? They didn't cover the A level syllabus in Y3-4.
Just because a topic normally covered in higher years are introduced in earlier years in RGS doesn't mean that they have covered all the other material in between at the same depth. Often, it's just a rearrangement of the order of topics, and a light intro to a more advanced topic, not that they are expected to master them to the level of a university student.
I can't speak for NUSH. But kids' brains are still developing conceptual thinking into their late teens, so I would doubt that they can grasp the full complexities of some of those higher-level concepts when they are younger. An intro, yes, but a full grasp - I think unlikely.
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