Asian Mums are more SUPERIOR?

[MMM]

Funz:

Well I confess, I have done some of the stuff that the author has done in the course of getting DD to do some stuff. I have threatened to or even taken away some of her toys or favourite activities. I have refused her water and toilet time before (how often does a kid need to pee and drink in 30mins?) and I have also screamed and yelled at her before.


Thing is I don't expect full marks all the time and piano practice is only 30 mins and we are talking about only red river valley and the likes of indian tom tom.

Funz,

I agree with you and I am \"guilty\" of some of those mentioned too.

I watch the kids closely because I know that if I don't, they would easily slipped into their \"comfortable\" zone of not being diligent. If there is no homework, they would rather be watching the tv or playing games. So I imposed on stuff like no tv, must complete the work that I set etc... My kids are only average kids. These are the things that keep me awake like... I've already did this and that and they are average. If I don't do it, what would happen? I don't think we can afford to take the risk.

If they do well, I praise their effort and reward them. But if they do badly, I would tell them off too. I am not the type to say... oh it's ok, try your best the next time round. In fact, I would go through the paper and there was once i made my P3 pay $0.20 for every mistake she made. That was just last year SA2 paper. In fact till now, I still feel sore about that maths paper and she knows. A paper that is so easy that she is definitely capable of but yet did badly due to carelessness and complacency :stupid: . I always emphasize to her that I can accept if she don't know but I cannot accept careless mistakes. She has gone through phases where she did not as well in CL and she cried (I heard from teacher). But after that humbling experience, she sort of understand the desire to do well. She is not the clever type slightly above average and I strong believe that if she put in effort, she can do it. To me, attitude matters most in life.

I recalled my eldest going for a art competition. Seeing her work, I told her that with that kind of work, she will never win. To me, that was being realistic and truthful to her. In the process of doing, I also told her that what is the requirements of a winning work so that she can learn from it and do better the next time round. My spouse on the other hand said stuff like wow, good effort,etc... Yes, that sounds encouraging BUT I feel that I need to be real to her too and let her hear what I really feel. Personally, I don't like to hear pretentious stuff, I would prefer to hear the truth. It's probably a fine line as we try to balance it.

[rosemummy]

tamarind:

Brainkid:

[quote=\"tamarind\"]
My hubby got Ds and Cs, not all Ds, I remember wrongly. During our time, engineering was still quite popular, and there was a large intake.

NTU ENTRY REQUIREMENTS 2009
http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2607

Engineering CCC/D--- ABB/A

College of Humanities, Arts, & Social Sciences
Art, Design & Media* DDD/D--- AAA/A

So long as a student has Bs and Cs, there are many choices. Though he may not get into the course that is his first choice.

I am an engineering graduate. (Hello.. ) You are right that largely it is due to the bigger cohert (due to manufacturing sector boom 10 years ago) hence the demand so the score acceptance is lower than other faculty.

Now, there are so many courses opened in local Universities esp NTU compared to our years..choices are more.

But mayI re-iterate also that getting a degree only makes you better in the sense you are likely going to be a white-collar. But in terms of the wealth and success in career, it depends a lot on the following:

- Character
- Charisma
- Adapatability
- Luck

Personally, I have met some Diploma holders who made it big in life with wealth of experience in business because of the above. One of the important factor is they started YOUNG while others are pursuing the paper qualification...

So, much as a Chinese mom (as describe in article) mould a child the hard way out, incalcation of the right character is the very important aspect not to be missed.

先苦后甜...Thats somewhat the way my Chinese mom bought me up and I appreciate that.

I agree with you that character, luck, etc are more important than a degree.

My post was aimed at parents who push, or even beat their kids to get perfect scores. I have seen countless parents in this forum who panic when their kids get 80+ marks in any subjects, and at least 2 parents whose kids are already in the GEP, and still worried. I believe that many parents have neglected character development.

The fact is that getting 70-80 marks are good enough to get a degree in local universities, even all Ds can get you into arts faculty. Of course, if kids want to get into a course that is their first choice, they better work very hard.[/quote]The link for the grade profile at local unis are outdated. The most recent indications are:
http://www.nus.edu.sg/oam/gradeprofile/sprogramme-igp.html
http://www3.ntu.edu.sg/oad2/website_files/IGP/AY10-11_IGP.pdf

The worst possible grades to get into any course in NUS is 3 Bs and 1 C. And even then, the choices are really limited to only the least popular engineering courses or MT-related courses. You need at least 3 As for the more popular engineering courses. Getting 4 straight As won't even guarantee you a place in the more popular courses like Law and Medicine, or even Pharmacy.

Even at NTU, you'll need at least 2 Bs and 2 Cs for the least competitive courses. With such grades, the choices are really limited. The only course that take in a student with 2 Cs and 2 Ds is Art, Design & Media, which probably require more creative flair and academic.

Getting 70 to 80 at O or A level is a good B or an A, and there should not be much to worry about. But getting this mark in lower primary would be worrying. In the US system, even at university level, a mark of between 70 to 80 is a C. If you get straight Cs for all your subject, you can barely get your degree.

[Brainkid]

tamarind:

Chenonceau,

Even in lower primary, there are many students who failed their subjects, suffered the consequences of failing, but are still not motivated to study harder. My kids are in neighbourhood primary schools, so we know that there are many kids like these.

Anyway, my post is just lamenting the situation in general, not meant to argue with you about what you wrote.

I guess it is the education system in Singapore with all the streaming that is giving kids who fail a hard time. Yes, you nuture the kids, try to teach them values...try your best to put them in the best preschools but you worry more when they can't get to a good Primary school with all the entry pre-requisite (which we have to think, are such system fair?)...when they reach adolescene, they rebel...all values and moral teachings may be washed off esp if they meet into bad company.

Then you start to wonder if kids are really worth your time and effort. I guess as parents, we nuture them not to ask for anything in return..so long they remember who the parents are at the end of the day and treat us well...thats what we hope for.

[rosemummy]

tamarind:

Chenonceau:

In short, I allow the situation / the outside world to punish them. Else, they grow up feeling so safe that I will ever be the one to protect them from themselves.

The reality is that I have encountered so many smart kids who ended up in poly. Even when they failed a module twice and will definitely be kicked out of poly without a diploma, they still didn't want to study. These kids have no idea what life will be like with only O levels cert. The fact is that in Singapore, unless you are rich and can afford to go overseas, you will never have a chance to get back to poly or university if you failed. As parents, do we really want our kids to face this type of consequences ?

tamarind, what do you think a parent of such kids can do at that stage?

Chenonceau, would you allow them to not do their work at all, fail badly and have disciplinary records in lower primary? If you don't, in that in some ways you still protect them from themselves, they'll still be relying on the safety net you provide. But you can't exactly not do anything if they do badly because if they have a bad foundation in any of the subjects in the lower primary level, it can be really difficult to catch up later on. While it's best to let the kids face the consequences of their own action, I'm not sure if it'll work for kids who only live for the moment and have no interest in hard work. But then again, I'm not sure if anything will work for such kids.

[Chenonceau]

Rosemummy, does the below answer your question?

Chenonceau:

Basically, I believed that failure teaches lessons that are important for success and the earlier a child learns to fail (within margins of safety) and recover, the better he is prepared to succeed later in his academic career, and in life. As such, when I see a safe opportunity for failure, I allow (sometimes, I sneakily help) it to happen.

There are some occasions one must not fail at e.g., PSLE or mid-year or end-year... but when there is opportunity to have my child experience the pain of not doing well, I leverage on it by removing my protective and nagging presence (just for that specific occasion)... and let the child realise that there are consequences to his insouciance... and that these are Logical Consequences that Mommy cannot control. In short, I allow the situation / the outside world to punish them. Else, they grow up feeling so safe that I will ever be the one to protect them from themselves.

Summing up the above then, I would clarify - (1) No, I won't allow failure so bad that they won't recover. (2) Yes, I do extend my protective presence over them most times. Only when I assess that failure is painful BUT has no lasting consequences do I use it as an opportunity to teach failure's lessons.

I also realise that I wasn't specific enough. When I have allowed failure to happen, there is a lot of effort spent later in the recovery. There is a lot of comforting and repeating that the child is capable, only lazy... and that if he had tried, he can do it. There is a lot a lot of hugging and telling him that he can do better next time, and should work harder. There is a lot of helping the child to bounce back.

The process does not end at allowing failure and leaving the child to cope by himself. There is planning to allow failure and then there is putting the child back on his feet, and letting him know that failure is not the end of the world. Then only the cycle is complete.

I hope the nuances are clearer now. If not, I may just not be too good at expressing it so... nuff said. Haha.

[rosemummy]

Chenonceau:

Rosemummy, does the below answer your question?

Chenonceau:

Basically, I believed that failure teaches lessons that are important for success and the earlier a child learns to fail (within margins of safety) and recover, the better he is prepared to succeed later in his academic career, and in life. As such, when I see a safe opportunity for failure, I allow (sometimes, I sneakily help) it to happen.

There are some occasions one must not fail at e.g., PSLE or mid-year or end-year... but when there is opportunity to have my child experience the pain of not doing well, I leverage on it by removing my protective and nagging presence (just for that specific occasion)... and let the child realise that there are consequences to his insouciance... and that these are Logical Consequences that Mommy cannot control. In short, I allow the situation / the outside world to punish them. Else, they grow up feeling so safe that I will ever be the one to protect them from themselves.

Summing up the above then, I would clarify - (1) No, I won't allow failure so bad that they won't recover. (2) Yes, I do extend my protective presence over them most times. Only when I assess that failure is painful BUT has no lasting consequences do I use it as an opportunity to teach failure's lessons.

I also realise that I wasn't specific enough. When I have allowed failure to happen, there is a lot of effort spent later in the recovery. There is a lot of comforting and repeating that the child is capable, only lazy... and that if he had tried, he can do it. There is a lot a lot of hugging and telling him that he can do better next time, and should work harder. There is a lot of helping the child to bounce back.

The process does not end at allowing failure. There is planning to allow failure and then there is putting the child back on his feet, and letting him know that failure is not the end of the world. Then only the cycle is complete.

If they're only allowed to fail when it's \"safe\" to do so, do they really learn the consequences? I suppose most kids, if they're reasonably responsible would. But some kids just don't care if they fail a few tests. Actually, I'm not sure what you can do with such kids apart from pushing them when they're younger. If they remain the same when they're older, I'm not sure if anyone can help them.

I think your approach is great for most kids. It teaches them responsibility and consequences and prepare them to face the future on their own, with guidance and support from the parents along the way.

[Funz]

MMM:

A paper that is so easy that she is definitely capable of but yet did badly due to carelessness and complacency :stupid: . I always emphasize to her that I can accept if she don't know but I cannot accept careless mistakes.

Bullseye!!! That is exactly how I feel.

Imagine, English cloze passage. All the helping words were given and she can spell it wrongly. All because she complacently thought she knew how the spell the word and did not bother to refer to the helping words nor did she check her work thereafter. Math, all her workings were correct but when she wrote her answer in the blank given, she transcribe the wrong numbers. Missing out a whole page of questions.

DH actually tried to smoothen things over during one session where I was really leaning into her and she appears so totally remorseful by saying it's ok, it's just carelessness, not that she doesn't know, just have to be more careful next time. Boy did I go ballistic, not on DD but on DH.

In order to get father and daughter to understand, I pulled out $100 and a dustbin. For every careless mistake that cost her marks, I threw the equivalent amount of money into the dustbin. Well with that comparison, father very quickly grasp the concept. But for DD, after throwing so much away I still have like $80, which to her is still a lot of money, so no biggie. :stupid:

I think for at the end of the day, do we dare to gamble that they will one day wake up and straighten out. Or do we leave no stones unturned so that we can say we have done our part, the rest will be up to them.

And as parents, we will always be 2nd guessing ourselves. Asking if we have done enough or did we do the right thing. Are we too harsh, too lenient, too kiasu, not kiasu enough, the list goes on.

It is a journey of learning and discovery and we can only hope that the mistakes we make are not disastrous.

[MMM]

Funz:

I think for at the end of the day, do we dare to gamble that they will one day wake up and straighten out. Or do we leave no stones unturned so that we can say we have done our part, the rest will be up to them.


And as parents, we will always be 2nd guessing ourselves. Asking if we have done enough or did we do the right thing. Are we too harsh, too lenient, too kiasu, not kiasu enough, the list goes on.

It is a journey of learning and discovery and we can only hope that the mistakes we make are not disastrous.

For my girl, she is P4 this year. She knows my sore spot is still the SA2 maths paper and everytime we talk about it, I would tell her that I am still sore about it. I don't like to hide my emotions/ disappointment. It cost her the 3rd position in class and a chance to go up the stage to get an award. She was just so close and I really wished that she could experience that and with that build her desire to achieve because she feels good to be in that position... I just have to admit, I am a \"tiger\" mum.

I recalled that it was not 20 cents but $1 dollar for every careless mistake she made eg. not adding correctly, etc... . So she gave me around $10.... Big amount to her since she is $ conscious. Hopefully she learn this time round.

[Sun_2010]

rosemummy:

But some kids just don't care if they fail a few tests. Actually, I'm not sure what you can do with such kids apart from pushing them when they're younger. If they remain the same when they're older, I'm not sure if anyone can help them.

I get your point , rosemummy - different strokes for different folks - yes..

I feel motivation is the keystone. If your child should have a desire to do well, even if he or she is lazy.
If that basic need is not there, then the child will not consider a low low mark as failure.
Remember he never wanted it in the first place, so it may be failure to us but not to him. This method is of no point then.

If they are in the mode- dont care , dun mind being sweeper (another comparison that i detest, but thats another story), then something else needs to be done to break into what matters to the child and connect.
And imho, unless there is a great emotional turmoil within the kid, there is always a desire to achieve something within us. To pull that out is going to be hard, and needs strength and patience, lots of it, but can be done. One day. That is the main help – nothing else would matter.

Many of us parents (especially in this forum) find it hard to restrain ourselves . From day1 ( some even far before it ) start preparing our kid. Kids doing assessment books 1 or 2 yrs ahead is common - not bcos the kid is motivated to do it but bcos of us parents feel it necessary. Study Schedule prepared by parent independently and constant monitoring, All the child has to do is follow instructions. If he/she rebels, is lazy , Mommy is there to nag, bribe, scream and anyhow strictly enforce it.
And volia, wonderful results 100%. So how? How much marks to mommy and how much to child?

I think the gist of what Chenonceau advice is that if the child dissent let him/her. And be there to support when results turn out to be not so good.
Give them hope they can with a bit of hard work. And now you are a team - they works with you not bcos they have to. A world of difference.

Its not easy to take it when kids do badly - We get emotional, tell our kids \"I-told-you\" ,scold, scold some more, set up a strict regime, spend sleepless nights worrying...
And in the process - alienate the child. We need to be prepared too to handle the child so that they learnt from it, and this takes effort too.

End of the day , what matters ?
1. they did no mistake
2. we did no mistake
3. They turned out right

Can we rest in peace by saying its not my fault, i tried so hard?

[tamarind]

rosemummy:

Even at NTU, you'll need at least 2 Bs and 2 Cs for the least competitive courses. With such grades, the choices are really limited. The only course that take in a student with 2 Cs and 2 Ds is Art, Design & Media, which probably require more creative flair and academic.


Getting 70 to 80 at O or A level is a good B or an A, and there should not be much to worry about. But getting this mark in lower primary would be worrying. In the US system, even at university level, a mark of between 70 to 80 is a C. If you get straight Cs for all your subject, you can barely get your degree.

Yes if you want to get into the popular courses, then kids must be prepared to work hard. But for average kids, getting a degree in any course, even Arts, is good enough. When they come out to work, there are still lots of chances to do well in life. It is not realistic to push an average kid to get all As in order to get into medicine, law, etc.

Why should parents be worried if kids get 70-80 marks in lower primary ? Many kids are late developers, they can catch up in secondary school. Even if they end up in an average secondary school, they can still get straight As at O levels.