Homosexuality
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The old documents are just that – old and irrelevant and yet worshipped as fact regardless of any inconsistencies. None of these documents demonstrate any knowledge outside of what could be deemed ‘knowable’ at the specific moment in history in which they were written. To stunt thinking doesn’t mean you hold people at a preprimary school level – you can quite easily complete a PhD and yet be narrow minded. That is not setting up a straw man argument – the true advances in public discourse on this planet have come about through scientific discovery and held at bay every time by the relevant religious authorities of the day.
The specific examples I gave were to debunk your assertion that just because someone is very intelligent and believes in god then we to should believe in god since we are not as intelligent as these ‘pillars of wisdom’. Neither of my examples were extremists but both highly intelligent individuals who just happen to believe in something that I don’t.
I haven’t painted stereotypes – Rush Limbaugh and Osama Bin Laden are the extremes in their respective societies. My wife’s family is Indonesian Muslim and are as moderate and liberal as my Christian family back in Aus. They do however, as most Muslims do, believe the Quran is unalterable word of god… they can’t transcend this and they don’t want to even though a simple reading of the history of the time outside of religious pamphlets would reveal the true creation of their holy text. Am I dismissing the entire religion – yeah I am. I don’t buy it and I am sure don’t either – you will say you respect their right to believe it but you don’t accept that Mohammed spoke with God through Gabriel and who gave us the last message from God even though it was collated only 120 years later.
The bible on the other hand is clearly written by a hodgepodge of different authors and contains a large number of contradictions. We ignore most of the parts that are no longer relevant and hold tight to those areas that still resonate with a higher moral purpose. Again the 2 examples are indicative of their respective religions – the Franciscan teaches about Jesus and his message in a very liberal new age way – probably not even really in keeping with the overall Churches teaching. The Muslim chap again believes in the Quran – though he is stricter about observing the ‘tenants of the faith’. There are a lot stricter people than him - again that example was to highlight that just because you are academically or scientifically more gifted, you don’t necessarily possess greater insights as you insinuated in your earlier question.
As a former Christian I grew up with a fairly strict catholic teaching though as logic began to penetrate the veneer, the belief dissipated and people like Bishop Spong started to make more sense – once all the miracles are thrown away the story is quite hollow and though the myth of Jesus of Nazareth loses its appeal, the man Jesus of Nazareth still maintains a venerable position along with other great people of history. His paradigm shifting message of love though was already spoken about by people such as Confucius earlier than Jesus.
As a married man – I accept I am married to another human being who has their own thoughts, feelings and needs and if they ventured outside the walls of tradition marriage I wouldn’t consider that as much an act of betrayal as I would if she wanted to dress our daughters in Muslim headscarves and teach them that the Quran is the world of god. To attempt to rob my children of the chance of free thought is far more of a crime to me than any personal indiscretion than can beset any fallible human being in a moment of weakness.
You know citing Stalin or Pol Pot doesn’t do much for me – Stalin was training to be a Priest at one stage, Pol Pot wanted to revert to day 1,– each of their movements, their entire rationale was based on control, fear and paranoia. We just have to look at North Korea today to see that as well, godless as such but the state has replaced what was traditionally god’s territory.
Anyway you are right in one regard – neither of us can hope to change the others mind. I would never at any stage teach my kids that going to a gay bay and engaging in the most risqué lifestyle was the best choice for them however I would understand if they did and remind them of the traps just as I would a heterosexual child. You always want to arm your children with the life skills to make the best choices when they come to a fork in the road. -
You imply that somehow being intolerant of infidelity is therefore depriving children the ability the freedom of thought. Tenuous at best, and a repeating theme in your posts, that somehow belief in God and his laws therefore deprives an individual of the ability to think. You say you do not stereotype, but if that is not a stereotype, and an unreasonable one (as you yourself have implied), then I don't know what a stereotype is.
Joseph27:
And that is a world view that is completely at odds with mine. Perhaps you can tolerate infidelity (and honestly, I think its just hyperbole on your part), and take it as human fallibility. But your contention that putting a Muslim headscarves is somehow a betrayal of free thought, is plain hypocrisy, and as extreme as the Taliban who insist on Burqa, since if you really value free thought, and at some point if your wife believes in God again and chooses to pass that to your children, then that is her FREE thinking and her right, and who is to say that your position is any superior? You don't actually have a 'free' and open thinking, that you may have deluded yourself into thinking you do. Free and open means one is allowed to evaluate the information and arrive at one's own decision.As a married man – I accept I am married to another human being who has their own thoughts, feelings and needs and if they ventured outside the walls of tradition marriage I wouldn’t consider that as much an act of betrayal as I would if she wanted to dress our daughters in Muslim headscarves and teach them that the Quran is the world of god. To attempt to rob my children of the chance of free thought is far more of a crime to me than any personal indiscretion than can beset any fallible human being in a moment of weakness.
Joseph27:
An oft quoted position by atheists and one that turns logic on its head. I don't for one minute see my religion that controls via fear and paranoia, I came into it willingly and my eyes wide open, in adulthood, despite being in opposition to it in early years. Your contention that it is so clearly holds no water. Again, you paint a completely unsubstantiable depiction, a STEREOTYPE, and not even a very good one.You know citing Stalin or Pol Pot doesn’t do much for me – Stalin was training to be a Priest at one stage, Pol Pot wanted to revert to day 1,– each of their movements, their entire rationale was based on control, fear and paranoia. We just have to look at North Korea today to see that as well, godless as such but the state has replaced what was traditionally god’s territory.
\"North Korea godless ....replaced what was traditionally god's territory\"??.....gimme me a break! Only atheists would claim that Stalin and Pol Pot derived their inspiration from the fear and respect (which is what it means to be a follower of God, not merely the BELIEF in God, which even Satan did) of God. Yes, Stalin at one point was training to be a priest, but his actions later on in life were at complete odds with Church teachings at the time and one wonders how one can even draw the link that he had been 'inspired' by God or religion?? Sorry, you atheists can have them for your own, by no stretch of imagination or by any reasonable definition can they be called religious (or Godly) people. -
Joseph27:
how do you allow your child the chance of free thought?...
To attempt to rob my children of the chance of free thought is far more of a crime to me than any personal indiscretion...
...
what is this free thought? is it to think as one wishes?
or are you allowing your child the chance to think in a way that you believe are free thoughts?
how each one of us think is coloured by our own circumstances and environment.
none of us are free from external influences.
As such, I don't think it is possible for any of our thoughts to be really free, including this one :lol:
Your view of giving the chance of free thought a higher importance than personal indiscretion is not commonly shared in Asian society.
Ethical behaviour continue to be held close to many Asian hearts, guided by ethical thoughts, not free ones.
Acts of personal indiscretion are understood as the result of misguided thoughts.
Like 3Boys, I do not share this view of yours.
Knowing what is \"Right\" and \"Wrong\" means a lot to me, and my children.Joseph27:
I wish to arm my children to be able to make the best choices too....
... You always want to arm your children with the life skills to make the best choices when they come to a fork in the road.
But in my view, the best choices are those that result in happiness to oneself and others.
I believe that they will learn to make such choices, guided by thoughts of compassion and wisdom, and not the free thoughts of an ordinary fallible human. -
3Boys:
You imply that somehow being intolerant of infidelity is therefore depriving children the ability the freedom of thought. Tenuous at best, and a repeating theme in your posts, that somehow belief in God and his laws therefore deprives an individual of the ability to think. You say you do not stereotype, but if that is not a stereotype, and an unreasonable one (as you yourself have implied), then I don't know what a stereotype is.
At no stage do I imply any such nonsense. Belief in god does not rob you of free will; belief in man made laws disguised as gods does.3Boys:
My wife and I give each full scope to interact with whoever we want however we are both faithful to one another as far as I know. I like to believe that I can trust her and it is very unlikely that she would take another partner, however life is unpredictable as our people. If she did, it would be based on desire and her ability to think it through. That is a very different notion from me wrapping my 3 year old in a muslim head scarf because of my understanding of Islam. My wife can believe what she wants but I could never accept someone teaching fiction as fact to my children.And that is a world view that is completely at odds with mine. Perhaps you can tolerate infidelity (and honestly, I think its just hyperbole on your part), and take it as human fallibility. But your contention that putting a Muslim headscarves is somehow a betrayal of free thought, is plain hypocrisy, and as extreme as the Taliban who insist on Burqa, since if you really value free thought, and at some point if your wife believes in God again and chooses to pass that to your children, then that is her FREE thinking and her right, and who is to say that your position is any superior? You don't actually have a 'free' and open thinking, that you may have deluded yourself into thinking you do. Free and open means one is allowed to evaluate the information and arrive at one's own decision.
They are welcome to learn about religion and the history behind it but not be told that you must behave in a certain way because a book written by dubious sources tells them to do so.
Even though you ignored the Quran reference – it remains entirely valid. Teaching my daughters that the text therein is the word of god, unaltered and final is entirely false. I have spent a lot of time studying religion, and whilst I am happy for my daughters to read the Quran, to understand the poetry and message, I would want them to also understand the history behind Mohammed, the history of the 120 years from the time of the ‘revelation’ to it coming together as the Quran as we know it today. I would also want them to understand the story behind the Hadith – if at the end of that they decided to wear the burqa then that is their choice however unless they want an easy answer to life’s most complex question, I don’t believe they will. Fortunately through evidence and study, my wife to has seen the folly of stories she was taught as fact.3Boys:
An oft quoted position by atheists and one that turns logic on its head. I don't for one minute see my religion that controls via fear and paranoia, I came into it willingly and my eyes wide open, in adulthood, despite being in opposition to it in early years. Your contention that it is so clearly holds no water. Again, you paint a completely unsubstantiable depiction, a STEREOTYPE, and not even a very good one.
\"North Korea godless ....replaced what was traditionally god's territory\"??.....gimme me a break! Only atheists would claim that Stalin and Pol Pot derived their inspiration from the fear and respect (which is what it means to be a follower of God, not merely the BELIEF in God, which even Satan did) of God. Yes, Stalin at one point was training to be a priest, but his actions later on in life were at complete odds with Church teachings at the time and one wonders how one can even draw the link that he had been 'inspired' by God or religion?? Sorry, you atheists can have them for your own, by no stretch of imagination or by any reasonable definition can they be called religious (or Godly) people.
It’s actually strange when religious people talk about the Pol Pot, Stalin example – it’s a matter of ‘look we’re not so evil, these people are a lot more evil than us’…. I would suggest that at no stage do you try to defend the teachings of the church to defend your cause – write off the history as a period of learning but don’t use it highlight how evil certain people were. At the time Stalin was starving parts of his population and killing others, Hitler was happily building the Third Reich under the glee full eye of the church. Even when the true horrors were being experienced, the Papalcy continued to support the regime. Some religious people are bad, some non religious people are bad – it doesn’t matter, history is full of very dark characters using whatever means they care to to justify their thirst for blood.dunnoleh:
Free thought is a complex notion and as you say – colored by our own circumstances and environment. I have an academic background but have also spent my professional life in sales so my children have been taught from day one how to question facts and want more evidence before they believe something. They are also being taught the power of influence to achieve a result… that has turned out to be expensive because my 6 year old is very convincing when she wants something and the tailors the pitch to suit the moment.how do you allow your child the chance of free thought?
what is this free thought? is it to think as one wishes?
or are you allowing your child the chance to think in a way that you believe are free thoughts?
how each one of us think is coloured by our own circumstances and environment.
none of us are free from external influences.
As such, I don't think it is possible for any of our thoughts to be really free, including this onedunnoleh:
Your view of giving the chance of free thought a higher importance than personal indiscretion is not commonly shared in Asian society.
Ethical behaviour continue to be held close to many Asian hearts, guided by ethical thoughts, not free ones.
Acts of personal indiscretion are understood as the result of misguided thoughts.
Like 3Boys, I do not share this view of yours.
Knowing what is \"Right\" and \"Wrong\" means a lot to me, and my children.
It’s funny, ethical behavior is preached well here as are strong family values but all my male colleagues frequent KTV’s and other sleazy places; married or unmarried. Their family life is very conservative but their shadow seems to have control over their credit cards and pleasure senses. There seems to be a greater disconnect between the family and fun than I ever experienced with my social circle in Australia. I have just never understood the female side of equation here and how they cope with it. Personally I wont go to sleazy KTV’s though that’s probably more attributable to a poor singing voice. :celebrate: -
Joseph27:
Yes you did, over and over, opinion but presented as statement of facts. Just peruse your posts.3Boys:
You imply that somehow being intolerant of infidelity is therefore depriving children the ability the freedom of thought. Tenuous at best, and a repeating theme in your posts, that somehow belief in God and his laws therefore deprives an individual of the ability to think. You say you do not stereotype, but if that is not a stereotype, and an unreasonable one (as you yourself have implied), then I don't know what a stereotype is.
At no stage do I imply any such nonsense. -
Joseph27:
At no point in your previous posts did you ever present such a nuance. Its double-speak, honestly. How do you believe man-made laws disguised as God's if you do not believe in God? In the context of what you are saying, it is effectively the same thing. Unremittingly, it has been that God does not exist, and belief in God 'stunts your thinking', makes you 'narrow minded', and prone to control by 'fear and paranoia'. I wonder who here is the REAL purveyor of 'fear and paranoia'.....Belief in god does not rob you of free will; belief in man made laws disguised as gods does.
I have said all along that good and bad exists in all the religious and non-religious. The religious have no monopoly on virtue, and the non-religious have no monopoly on wisdom. Presentation that an atheistic mindset is somehow intellectually superior to a one that believes in God, is hogwash. -
Joseph27:
You are mixing with the wrong people....
It’s funny, ethical behavior is preached well here as are strong family values but all my male colleagues frequent KTV’s and other sleazy places; married or unmarried. Their family life is very conservative but their shadow seems to have control over their credit cards and pleasure senses. There seems to be a greater disconnect between the family and fun than I ever experienced with my social circle in Australia. I have just never understood the female side of equation here and how they cope with it. Personally I wont go to sleazy KTV’s though that’s probably more attributable to a poor singing voice. :celebrate: -
3Boys:
I dont associate with them - I only know of their exploits. Of course their sanctimonious wives wait at home judging their neighbors and holding up their families values to the highest degree.
You are mixing with the wrong people....Joseph27:
It’s funny, ethical behavior is preached well here as are strong family values but all my male colleagues frequent KTV’s and other sleazy places; married or unmarried. Their family life is very conservative but their shadow seems to have control over their credit cards and pleasure senses. There seems to be a greater disconnect between the family and fun than I ever experienced with my social circle in Australia. I have just never understood the female side of equation here and how they cope with it. Personally I wont go to sleazy KTV’s though that’s probably more attributable to a poor singing voice. :celebrate:
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As for the rest - as with any religious person, it isnt worth arguing because you dont want address any specific question and just ignore any facts. Its fine to believe that Moses lead his people, that jesus is god personified or that mohammed spoke to god last... but stupidity to stand by firmly when evidence tells you its false. Still living life with ones head in the sand is I guess easier than the alternative.
Belief in god is fiction - so you are only a prisoner of your own neurosis - spreading as fact is poison -
Joseph27:
it seems what your daughter was given was not the chance to free thoughts as you claimed, but sales training instead. I wasn’t sure if you really believed that acts of personal indiscretion are a lesser crime than not being given this chance. You have made that clear now. Our beliefs are very far apart indeed, but that’s ok with me.… also spent my professional life in sales so my children have been taught from day one how to question facts and want more evidence before they believe something. They are also being taught the power of influence to achieve a result… that has turned out to be expensive because my 6 year old is very convincing when she wants something and the tailors the pitch to suit the moment …
Joseph27:
You are citing the behavior of your male colleagues to judge another society’s beliefs. Not only is it statistically incorrect, it also shows your shallow knowledge of this society; besides the fact that you are obviously in wrong company. The subsequent comparison made against your social circle in Australia holds little water. Holding such a narrow view is being ignorant. Commenting on others based on such a view is being both ignorant and arrogant.… It’s funny, ethical behavior is preached well here as are strong family values but all my male colleagues frequent KTV’s and other sleazy places; married or unmarried. Their family life is very conservative but their shadow seems to have control over their credit cards and pleasure senses. There seems to be a greater disconnect between the family and fun than I ever experienced with my social circle in Australia. I have just never understood the female side of equation here and how they cope with it. Personally I wont go to sleazy KTV’s though that’s probably more attributable to a poor singing voice. :celebrate:
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dunnoleh:
I will admit that the comment on KTV is anecdotal though I havent been let down by too many people so the stereotype continues. It's amazing though to watch the guy go and do whatever he wants and spin a story to the wife so that she has no idea whats happening. She says her husbands conversative, meanwhile her husband is more than happy to contradict that once he gets a 1/2 bottle scotch into him. I am not criticising the action, we are all either haunted by our shadows or accepting of them, I do however criticise hyprocracy.
it seems what your daughter was given was not the chance to free thoughts as you claimed, but sales training instead. I wasn’t sure if you really believed that acts of personal indiscretion are a lesser crime than not being given this chance. You have made that clear now. Our beliefs are very far apart indeed, but that’s ok with me.Joseph27:
… also spent my professional life in sales so my children have been taught from day one how to question facts and want more evidence before they believe something. They are also being taught the power of influence to achieve a result… that has turned out to be expensive because my 6 year old is very convincing when she wants something and the tailors the pitch to suit the moment …
Joseph27:
You are citing the behavior of your male colleagues to judge another society’s beliefs. Not only is it statistically incorrect, it also shows your shallow knowledge of this society; besides the fact that you are obviously in wrong company. The subsequent comparison made against your social circle in Australia holds little water. Holding such a narrow view is being ignorant. Commenting on others based on such a view is being both ignorant and arrogant.… It’s funny, ethical behavior is preached well here as are strong family values but all my male colleagues frequent KTV’s and other sleazy places; married or unmarried. Their family life is very conservative but their shadow seems to have control over their credit cards and pleasure senses. There seems to be a greater disconnect between the family and fun than I ever experienced with my social circle in Australia. I have just never understood the female side of equation here and how they cope with it. Personally I wont go to sleazy KTV’s though that’s probably more attributable to a poor singing voice. :celebrate:
Now onto a more important topic - how is it that my daughter isnt given a choice? She learns the subjects she should, she is taught to question everything she is told. If I tell her that A is fact, I want her to ask why and what we base that information on. If however I told her that 2 + 2 = 5 and to never question it regardless of what anyone said and to then be offended if someone contradicted that statement - then I would be robbing her of free will. You seem to suggest that by opening her mind to question I am not giving her a choice? If I insisted that she wears a headscarf - would that be giving her a choice, or if I tell her about the baby jesus and how she must believe if she wants to go to heaven - is that giving her a choice?
I stand by my statement - an indescretion is less of a moral crime than to rob your child of free will. So yes we are on a different page of a different book in a different library
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