Homosexuality

[dunnoleh]

Joseph27:

… also spent my professional life in sales so my children have been taught from day one how to question facts and want more evidence before they believe something. They are also being taught the power of influence to achieve a result… that has turned out to be expensive because my 6 year old is very convincing when she wants something and the tailors the pitch to suit the moment …

it seems what your daughter was given was not the chance to free thoughts as you claimed, but sales training instead. I wasn’t sure if you really believed that acts of personal indiscretion are a lesser crime than not being given this chance. You have made that clear now. Our beliefs are very far apart indeed, but that’s ok with me.

Joseph27:

… It’s funny, ethical behavior is preached well here as are strong family values but all my male colleagues frequent KTV’s and other sleazy places; married or unmarried. Their family life is very conservative but their shadow seems to have control over their credit cards and pleasure senses. There seems to be a greater disconnect between the family and fun than I ever experienced with my social circle in Australia. I have just never understood the female side of equation here and how they cope with it. Personally I wont go to sleazy KTV’s though that’s probably more attributable to a poor singing voice. :celebrate:

You are citing the behavior of your male colleagues to judge another society’s beliefs. Not only is it statistically incorrect, it also shows your shallow knowledge of this society; besides the fact that you are obviously in wrong company. The subsequent comparison made against your social circle in Australia holds little water. Holding such a narrow view is being ignorant. Commenting on others based on such a view is being both ignorant and arrogant.

[Joseph27]

dunnoleh:

Joseph27:

… also spent my professional life in sales so my children have been taught from day one how to question facts and want more evidence before they believe something. They are also being taught the power of influence to achieve a result… that has turned out to be expensive because my 6 year old is very convincing when she wants something and the tailors the pitch to suit the moment …

it seems what your daughter was given was not the chance to free thoughts as you claimed, but sales training instead. I wasn’t sure if you really believed that acts of personal indiscretion are a lesser crime than not being given this chance. You have made that clear now. Our beliefs are very far apart indeed, but that’s ok with me.

Joseph27:

… It’s funny, ethical behavior is preached well here as are strong family values but all my male colleagues frequent KTV’s and other sleazy places; married or unmarried. Their family life is very conservative but their shadow seems to have control over their credit cards and pleasure senses. There seems to be a greater disconnect between the family and fun than I ever experienced with my social circle in Australia. I have just never understood the female side of equation here and how they cope with it. Personally I wont go to sleazy KTV’s though that’s probably more attributable to a poor singing voice. :celebrate:

You are citing the behavior of your male colleagues to judge another society’s beliefs. Not only is it statistically incorrect, it also shows your shallow knowledge of this society; besides the fact that you are obviously in wrong company. The subsequent comparison made against your social circle in Australia holds little water. Holding such a narrow view is being ignorant. Commenting on others based on such a view is being both ignorant and arrogant.

I will admit that the comment on KTV is anecdotal though I havent been let down by too many people so the stereotype continues. It's amazing though to watch the guy go and do whatever he wants and spin a story to the wife so that she has no idea whats happening. She says her husbands conversative, meanwhile her husband is more than happy to contradict that once he gets a 1/2 bottle scotch into him. I am not criticising the action, we are all either haunted by our shadows or accepting of them, I do however criticise hyprocracy.

Now onto a more important topic - how is it that my daughter isnt given a choice? She learns the subjects she should, she is taught to question everything she is told. If I tell her that A is fact, I want her to ask why and what we base that information on. If however I told her that 2 + 2 = 5 and to never question it regardless of what anyone said and to then be offended if someone contradicted that statement - then I would be robbing her of free will. You seem to suggest that by opening her mind to question I am not giving her a choice? If I insisted that she wears a headscarf - would that be giving her a choice, or if I tell her about the baby jesus and how she must believe if she wants to go to heaven - is that giving her a choice?

I stand by my statement - an indescretion is less of a moral crime than to rob your child of free will. So yes we are on a different page of a different book in a different library

[3Boys]

Joseph27:

As for the rest - as with any religious person, it isnt worth arguing because you dont want address any specific question and just ignore any facts. Its fine to believe that Moses lead his people, that jesus is god personified or that mohammed spoke to god last... but stupidity to stand by firmly when evidence tells you its false. Still living life with ones head in the sand is I guess easier than the alternative.

Belief in god is fiction - so you are only a prisoner of your own neurosis - spreading as fact is poison

I have asked the same questions you have asked, and with likely far more rigor, I dare say, than you have, when I was agnostic/atheist. I have satisfied myself that where it matters, the truth is clear.

You have not proven that God does not exist. What you have said, and is well understood even amongst the religious, is that a literal reading of the Bible and Quran, without contextual understanding of whom they were written for, and the era in which they were written, will leads to issues of interpretation. That does not make them fiction. Any more than the Big Bang is fiction, despite differing interpretations. You accuse the religious of being narrow minded, who is being narrow now, if one cannot take different interpretations and balance some dynamic tensions? Is that what you call critical thinking? Or is it literal, straight line, one way street narrow-mindedness that \"Belief in God is fiction\". On who's authority? Yours?

The classic cop-out, \"It isn't worth arguing because the religious don't want to address specific issues.....\" can't win the debate, so attack the person. Actually, I have the same feeling about you. You see what you choose to see only. You have a self constructed world view, based on one foundational principle; \"I am against the belief in God\". The rest of the things you called me, perhaps take a look in the mirror first. To all those, let me add one more....arrogance.

\"Belief in God is fiction\" ---- Problem is, you have no way to ever be sure about this, but you choose to come here and pooh-pooh on some other people's beliefs. Arrogance, and arrogance has blinded you to your own ignorance and prejudice.

Btw, coming onto a public forum and calling someone else's religion garbage, is not kosher in this country, in case you did not read the memo....

[3Boys]

Joseph27:

I stand by my statement - an indescretion is less of a moral crime than to rob your child of free will.

And everyone here is obliged to buy into your liberal quasi-moralistic approach to child rearing....and anyone as much as whispering an opposing view is narrow minded, yes? Woe betide any adult trying to teach a child right from wrong, you might just be robbing your child of his FREE-WILL :shock: :shock:

If your child is committing an indiscretion that impinges on the public, may I suggest you rob him of some of his free will before he grows up and the authorities decide that indiscretion CAN in fact be the greater MORAL crime and do it on your behalf.

[3Boys]

dunnoleh:

Commenting on others based on such a view is being both ignorant and arrogant.

nuff said.

[Joseph27]

3Boys:

Joseph27:

I stand by my statement - an indescretion is less of a moral crime than to rob your child of free will.

And everyone here is obliged to buy into your liberal quasi-moralistic approach to child rearing....and anyone as much as whispering an opposing view is narrow minded, yes? Woe betide any adult trying to teach a child right from wrong, you might just be robbing your child of his FREE-WILL :shock: :shock:

If your child is committing an indiscretion that impinges on the public, may I suggest you rob him of some of his free will before he grows up and the authorities decide that indiscretion CAN in fact be the greater MORAL crime and do it on your behalf.

No use continuing this - at the end of the day we are most likely both good people doing the best we can to raise our respective families in a manner we believe we should. Getting back to where all this started -I hope neither of my daughters are gay, I hope they both eventually meet loving supporting male partners and have healthy children...

[dunnoleh]

Joseph27:

… how is it that my daughter isnt given a choice? … You seem to suggest that by opening her mind to question I am not giving her a choice? …

you have miss-read my post or missed my point, or both.

I do not equate the sales training you provided with denying her of a choice. What I pointed out is that your claim of giving her the chance of free thought is flawed. You even agreed that thoughts are influenced by circumstances and environment and even seem to understand that the realm of thoughts is a complex one. One’s thoughts are a result of complex individual propensities and prevailing circumstances. Conditioning also plays a role in developing our thinking habits. The sales training you provided is a form of conditioning. Thereafter, how deeply she digs into your pocket will depend on her propensities and intelligence. This is where moral values and ethics come into play; the thought to break daddy’s wallet or not to.
The question of allowing or denying her of a choice is irrelevant.

Your belief in acts of personal indiscretion being a lesser crime than not allowing the chance to free thought is a misguided one. Today’s world provides sufficient evidence to learn that free thoughts are largely misguided, somewhat similar to a young girl breaking her daddy's wallet.
In contrast to your belief, to deny my children of the chance to inculcate good moral values would be a terrible crime on my part; to condone acts of personal indiscretion committed out of free will is unthinkable, notwithstanding my forgiveness.

[Nebbermind]

Definition of 'free to choose' when come to choosing CCA.


me : \"Sure, u have the choice of not joining St John's Ambulance. But I must reiterate that NCC and NPCC really sux big time. You don't believe me? You go and experience for yourself. You will live to regret it!! Yeah, I'm not forcing you to choose the St John's Ambulance\"

:roll:

[Joseph27]

dunnoleh:

Your belief in acts of personal indiscretion being a lesser crime than not allowing the chance to free thought is a misguided one. Today’s world provides sufficient evidence to learn that free thoughts are largely misguided, somewhat similar to a young girl breaking her daddy's wallet.

In contrast to your belief, to deny my children of the chance to inculcate good moral values would be a terrible crime on my part; to condone acts of personal indiscretion committed out of free will is unthinkable, notwithstanding my forgiveness.

Let me just clarify this in the context in which it was written - I attempt to inculcate to my daughters a strong sense of moral values albeit without any religious providence, a love of the environment, respect for other people, respect for yourself and a thirst for knowledge. That, I believe, is a great foundation from which to pursue all other interests and activities. My wife and I are a happily functional monogamous couple and we interact in a social group of similarly minded people, some religious some not. The statement that I could tolerate an indiscretion more than I could, my wife demanding that our daughters follow a strict version of Islam is based on the overall world view we currently share and having that attacked by religious fundamentalism. In the end my wife isn’t about to ask for that. I am sure my wife would have a similar repulsion if I came home and started to teach our daughters that evolution is false and that the world is only 6000 years old – that would be an attack on our family as much as anything. In time I could forgive an indiscretion through counseling and dialogue – I could not however forgive anyone asking me to change the way I teach my children and getting me to teach them something I hold as false.

[Joseph27]

insider:

Joseph27:

I attempt to inculcate to my daughters a strong sense of moral values albeit without any religious providence, a love of the environment, respect for other people, respect for yourself and a thirst for knowledge. That, I believe, is a great foundation from which to pursue all other interests and activities.

I can see clearly where you are coming from though I am a devoted Buddhist myself.

Much as it seems like you are 'anti-religion', I don't take offence of it at all coz I know exactly who I am and you can have your point of view too.

Though I see the beauty of Buddhism and ever experienced the light of mercy, I cannot expect my kids to feel the same and impose on them that coz I believe, you have to believe to.

I can only share with them and live my life as kind and as compassionate as I can, then it's up to my three kids to go explore for themselves what they want or they can be an atheist if they so decide. I do not think a lack of religion will lead someone without any moral compass coz I have faith in them as a human, with or without religion.

Buddha said it long ago that his followers are not to take very word written literally coz he had already foreseen some of his words might be twisted by men. He taught us to keep observing and keep thinking (with our hearts) and we are free to discard / dispute anything written if some things do not make sense to us (of course, best to only discard after we have counseling sessions with the learned monks).

For real Buddhist monks and nuns, they have daily 'debate' sessions to question/challenge the teachings of Buddha. Through such debates, they can think and see more thoroughly the actual meanings of those teachings and from there, perhaps can internalise better instead of just practise in a superficial way coz one can never attain enlightenment without deep reflections...

That was a nice reply, thanks for taking the time to write it.