Indonesian maid salary to be increased to $450???
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Tamarind,
Did you notice the comment from \"3 boys\" that he was married to a working mom?? Looks like you've been arguing with a MAN all this time!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
(That might explain alot about why he doesn't understand the struggles we women go thru!!) -
Koolmama:
Oh yes, she knows I'm a bloke. Btw, my wife agrees with me.Tamarind,
Did you notice the comment from \"3 boys\" that he was married to a working mom?? Looks like you've been arguing with a MAN all this time!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
(That might explain alot about why he doesn't understand the struggles we women go thru!!) -
tamarind:
I grant you the courtesy of reading the entirety of all your posts, and even your blog. If you do not read the rest of my posts, then how do you know if I have a valid point or not? Perhaps it is I that should stop replying to you, since you do not seem to be interested in keeping an open mind and hearing the opposite viewpoint. Very disappointing, considering your stature in this forum.
You are very wrong. Fortunately the government also thinks that you are wrong. Otherwise they will not continue to allow foreign maids into Singapore, they will ban foreign maids like North America.3Boys:
Maids are a luxury, not a necessity.3Boys:
Again, this is a very simplistic view. Do you actually know anybody from North America ?My contemporaries in Europe and North America can do it, so can I.
I have cousins living in America, my brother-in-law is American, and I have worked in America before. Our societies are different, and the way we live, the way we cook, the way we clean, are all different. It is ridiculous to expect us to live like them.
Anyway, you can have your own views. I only read the first few lines of what you wrote, did not bother to read the rest. Since you don't need a maid, why bother debating about the issue ? It is very unfair to say that just because you can do without a maid, then other people should not have maids too. You do not know the problems that other people have, not everyone is as fortunate as you.
Again, I am really grateful that our government for NOT thinking the same way as you do. So I can have a better life.
Unfortunately, you have read the government wrong.
Why is there a levy if the government thinks that maids are a critical necessity? Clearly, it is meant to dampen demand for FDWs. Heck, if it were such a necessity, why isn't there even a subsidy for our poor, stressed dual income families??
I work closely with many Americans in the US and locally. The ridiculousness is in thinking our system cannot be adapted to be more like theirs. As I said, the norm in the past during our parent's time was for children to be raised in double income families, WITHOUT a maid. My parents both worked, and raised 3 children, my in-laws both worked, and raised 2 daughters, all without any live-in help, but via a variety of support mechanisms, all of which are probably better developed today. Perhaps that's why my wife and I don't feel so afraid of doing without maids, don't think that maids are a NECESSITY. Its a Singapore system as well, not an American or European one, and one that we have forgotten in our addiction to live-in help. What you have written about babies waking up and needing milk feeds, is true in our society, and ALL societies, in the PAST, present and future. So how is that a reason that maids are now a necessity PRESENT Singapore when it was not in the past or in other developed countries? I know because for 15 month I was waking up to feed my eldest expressed breast milk. Easy? Of course not. But its been managed before and presently so why can't we deal with it?
We make plenty of assumptions about things that are non-negotiable, that's why we now live with this concept that maids are a 'neccessity'. Why can't the children manage on their own and learn some discipline? Why can't they start to chip in with the dishes and sweeping the floor and watering the plants? I did all of that as a child, our kids too pampered and need to focus all their time on Chinese enrichment? If we keep this up, let me tell you, our future generation WILL think that maids are a necessity, since they have absolutely no skills to manage a household on their own. How's that for a scary thought?
Which successful, enduring society predicates its future on sucking in huge amounts of cheap foreign labour to drive growth? How sustainable is this model? You are looking at the micro (oh, my maid can't hang clothes out), how about looking at the macro for a minute and understand the broader considerations? We have a maid because it makes economic sense. When it doesn't, we will stop, very simple.
How about my point about the lowly paid in Singapore, that strike any resonance with you, are is it not our problem also? -
3Boys:
I grant you the courtesy of reading the entirety of all your posts, and even your blog. If you do not read the rest of my posts, then how do you know if I have a valid point or not? Perhaps it is I that should stop replying to you, since you do not seem to be interested in keeping an open mind and hearing the opposite viewpoint. Very disappointing, considering your stature in this forum.
You are very wrong. Fortunately the government also thinks that you are wrong. Otherwise they will not continue to allow foreign maids into Singapore, they will ban foreign maids like North America.tamarind:
[quote=\"3Boys\"]
Maids are a luxury, not a necessity.3Boys:
Again, this is a very simplistic view. Do you actually know anybody from North America ?My contemporaries in Europe and North America can do it, so can I.
I have cousins living in America, my brother-in-law is American, and I have worked in America before. Our societies are different, and the way we live, the way we cook, the way we clean, are all different. It is ridiculous to expect us to live like them.
Anyway, you can have your own views. I only read the first few lines of what you wrote, did not bother to read the rest. Since you don't need a maid, why bother debating about the issue ? It is very unfair to say that just because you can do without a maid, then other people should not have maids too. You do not know the problems that other people have, not everyone is as fortunate as you.
Again, I am really grateful that our government for NOT thinking the same way as you do. So I can have a better life.
Unfortunately, you have read the government wrong.
Why is there a levy if the government thinks that maids are a critical necessity? Clearly, it is meant to dampen demand for FDWs. Heck, if it were such a necessity, why isn't there even a subsidy for our poor, stressed dual income families??
I work closely with many Americans in the US and locally. The ridiculousness is in thinking our system cannot be adapted to be more like theirs. As I said, the norm in the past during our parent's time was for children to be raised in double income families, WITHOUT a maid. My parents both worked, and raised 3 children, my in-laws both worked, and raised 2 daughters, all without any live-in help, but via a variety of support mechanisms, all of which are probably better developed today. Perhaps that's why my wife and I don't feel so afraid of doing without maids, don't think that maids are a NECESSITY. Its a Singapore system as well, not an American or European one, and one that we have forgotten in our addiction to live-in help. What you have written about babies waking up and needing milk feeds, is true in our society, and ALL societies, in the PAST, present and future. So how is that a reason that maids are now a necessity PRESENT Singapore when it was not in the past or in other developed countries? I know because for 15 month I was waking up to feed my eldest expressed breast milk. Easy? Of course not. But its been managed before and presently so why can't we deal with it?
We make plenty of assumptions about things that are non-negotiable, that's why we now live with this concept that maids are a 'neccessity'. Why can't the children manage on their own and learn some discipline? Why can't they start to chip in with the dishes and sweeping the floor and watering the plants? I did all of that as a child, our kids too pampered and need to focus all their time on Chinese enrichment? If we keep this up, let me tell you, our future generation WILL think that maids are a necessity, since they have absolutely no skills to manage a household on their own. How's that for a scary thought?
Which successful, enduring society predicates its future on sucking in huge amounts of cheap foreign labour to drive growth? How sustainable is this model? You are looking at the micro (oh, my maid can't hang clothes out), how about looking at the macro for a minute and understand the broader considerations? We have a maid because it makes economic sense. When it doesn't, we will stop, very simple.
How about my point about the lowly paid in Singapore, that strike any resonance with you, are is it not our problem also?[/quote]
I read with interest your responses to this discussion of the wage increase of our Indonesian, inexperienced maids. It is apparent that you are quite anti on the women who sees maids as a luxury and not a necessity.
Just to share my experience with you on raising my child from birth to his present age of 1 year.
What you must know is that our present generation (those in mid-20s and 30s) are actually brought up by traditional minded parents who favours and pampers boys over girls from birth. In our present generation of males, most have the mindset that they are not to contribute to the housework and the raising of the children as these are the 'jobs' of the females.
What you must know is that the parents of our present generation (the grandparents of our kids) are absolutely UNWILLING to look after their grandchildren unlike in the past. My mother requested $1000 from me to look after my baby (Mon to Fri - 9am to 5pm only) and on top of that, she was requesting another $500 as rental money and another $250 for groceries for my baby, making it a total of $1750. I earned a take home pay of $1200 after deduction of CPF.
In the end, it was my very old 92 years old GRANDMOTHER who volunteered to come my house to stay and look after my baby while I go off to give adhoc tuition (yes, I quit my full time job in order to have full flexibility over my time). Even then, I had to give my mother $500 as rental money and $400 for the electricity bills (as my grandmother was staying with us all because she came to look after my baby for me). My husband is one of those who believed that it is NOT the male's duty to look after children and do housework as he was brought up that way by his parents.
In the end, after 48 hours with no sleep due to the birth of my kid, I brought home my baby only to end up not sleeping at all for 1 week as my husband refuses to wake up to feed the baby whenever he cried every 2 hours. It was up to me to feed him. In the Morning, I bathe my baby boy and fed him every 2 hours. This went on for 1 month. Furthermore to that, my husband quit his job stating that he wanted to help me look after my baby. What happened? his looking after was to sleep for at least 12 hours every day and upon waking up to watch his soccer matches on TV and to go fishing in order to release his stress.
As for me, I was left with the burden of paying off every single expenses and also the rental money to my mother and at the same time, to do housework and also to look after my baby all by myself.
After 1 week of NO SLEEP at all and NO HELP from anybody, I literally collasped, sinking into a deep depression. When my baby cried, I ignored him. When my mother (his grandmother) screamed at me to stop his crying as he was disturbing the entire household from THEIR sleep, all I was thinking at that time was to throw him out of the window. I was literally going crazy and about ready to collapse from the lack of sleep.
Nevertheless, when my baby boy was admitted to the hospital after 1 week due to jaundice, my aunty took over by taking URGENT LEAVE from her work and stayed with my boy in the hospital for 2 days. (I forked the hospitalisation bills). That was the period of time that I had rest for a grand total of 5 hours. Why 5 hours? Because my husband being brought up in the ASIAN world believe that it is STILL the wife's duty to do housework and to help him type his resume and send out to look for work. Me still in confinement rested and lied down on the bed for only a total of 15 hours for that 1 month of confinement.
Immediately after my confinement, I went out to work as I was too into debt (about $5000) from my confinement. My routine was like this: 2pm to 11pm (work), 11pm (come back home, eat my LUNCH and DINNER and BREAKFAST all in one), 11.30pm (Feed my baby boy), 12am (Start to do housework), 6am (Type my student's notes and feed my baby every 2 hours), 10am (Sleep), 12pm (wake up and feed my baby boy), 1pm (go to work) and the entire cycle repeats itself until my boy was 10 months old. I had huge, black eyebags after the 10 months. I had only 2 hours of sleep and 1 meal every single day for the 10 months after birth.
From the 11 month on, I decided to place my boy with the nanny who charged me $7 per hour. I will sleep at 7am and wake up at 9am, prepare him, feed him and then proceed to the nanny's house and from there rushed off to work. I engaged my friends, and my uncle to pick my boy up at 7pm sharp everyday. My boy came back on the 3rd day from the nanny with a very swollen upper lip and bruises all over his body. He became very fearful of the nanny and refuses to even step into the nanny's house. I ended up cancelling a lot of lessons in that month and earned $0 for that month even though I had to pay the nanny $800 for her 'work'.
I took off for the entire January 2011. Again, I have no salary. But, I still have to fork out $1000 to pay my mother. By the time my infant boy reaches 1 year old, my savings of $12000 has depleted to just $6.09 in my bank and I am once again in debt of $2400. My mother threw my grandmother out of my house when my boy was 10 month old as my mother claimed that the money we were paying her is TOO LITTLE and she REFUSES to look after her grandson as she did not want to lose her freedom.
Now? I have just hired a maid of my own and do I think that it is a luxury? No. In fact, I think the opposite. Not only do I have somebody reliable to look after my boy while I go off to give tuition, I am able to earn money to clear off the debts that I had incurred when my grandmother was chased out of the house and pay my mother the rental money that she demanded from me. Does she do the housework? No. Does she do cooking? Again no. I do all of these when I come back home at 11pm and finishes all at 1am.
I have adequate rest (3am to 12pm). Is it a necessity? Yes definately. Is my maid overpaid when hired just to look after my boy Monday to Friday 2pm to 8pm? I would think so.
Would I pay $450 for that? I doubt so. I would rather pay the infant care if I were to pay that price right?
The Past
You talk about the past whereby dual income families are still able to raise their own children without a maid. but you are forgetting one very important point. Our grandparents have a genuine love for their grandchildren and are more than willing to look after their grandchildren while our parents go off to work. My parents came from a family of 14 brothers and sisters. And when their parents are not available to look after us, that is when their brothers and sisters step in.
For myself, I was first raised by my grandmother, thereafter my 9th uncle and sometimes my 3rd uncle or even my 1st aunty. At times, my 4th aunty would step in to help out too.. all without demands of money.
My brother and I were both given 50cents as pocket money from primary school all the way to secondary school (where sometimes we will even go hungry as we do not have the money to buy food. My friends who were luckier have to help me buy stationaries and share their food with me). By the time I was 16, I was made to work and study at the same time. Straight after school, i will work at Mos Burger till the wee hours of 2 or 3am and then go home to study. By the 3rd year of my tertiary studies, I was soon unable to keep up with my schoolwork. My studies suffered. I was forced not to go to university due to the lack of money and my mother's selfishness.
Due to a lack of proper guidance, my brother and I were both rebellious as children and we have totally zero respect for my mother.
Would I want that for my own children? No.
Would I be prepared to pay money in order to have quality time with my children so that I would be able to avoid the fate that my parents went through? Yes.
Not everybody is born fortunate and not everyone will marry a good husband or a wife. My friend (a male) is the one who went through what I have gone through at the birth of our children as HIS WIFE is the same as MY HUSBAND.
So, please step into our shoes before making any comments. [/u] -
angelia286:
angelia286,
I read with interest your responses to this discussion of the wage increase of our Indonesian, inexperienced maids. It is apparent that you are quite anti on the women who sees maids as a luxury and not a necessity.
I just read in another thread that 3boys is actually a Daddy, not a mommy. I did not know that before I responded to his comments.
It is very unfair for a man to say that mommies do not require maids. Most men have no idea what type of hardship their wives have gone through.
I am not going to waste any more time reading what 3boys wrote because it does not make any sense. I also know that it is not possible to change his mind. There are people who are totally incapable of stepping into other people's shoes. They only can see from their own point of view.
Thank you very much for sharing your experiences. My blog is written for mommies like you and me.angelia286:
I totally understand, I also went through the same experiences just after my baby girl was born, and I was not able to find a maid. I remember being so tired, I kept thinking of jumping out of the window of our flat on the 16th floor, to end my suffering. I kept crying and no one could understand why. I did not realize that I was in depression.After 1 week of NO SLEEP at all and NO HELP from anybody, I literally collasped, sinking into a deep depression. When my baby cried, I ignored him. When my mother (his grandmother) screamed at me to stop his crying as he was disturbing the entire household from THEIR sleep, all I was thinking at that time was to throw him out of the window. I was literally going crazy and about ready to collapse from the lack of sleep.
My hubby did not know how to do housework at all. He never learned how to feed the babies. He does not understand what I am going through. But fortunately, he let me do whatever I want to make my life better. He knows that I cannot do without a maid. -
Hi angelia286, i agree with you that if you do not have the support of the previous generation in household matters, it is better to get a maid.
At least you know that you are getting some consistent help, and not someone who may walk out on you suddenly.
In that way, you can go out and earn money with a peace of mind and you will have no or minimal squabbles about housework with your husband. -
how can we compare the western lifestyle and ours here? it is so easy to get local help in usa and uk. during my short stay in london, i notice most of my friends (local angmo) hire local help to come in either thrice or twice a week to clean the place. some even have lived in foreign maids as well and this is getting pretty common. cooking is so easy there because you dont have to prepare everything from scratch unlike in asian countries.
so tell me why many of these expats who do not have a maid in their countries, hire one the minute they reach our shore.
we the local residents may not have family support so a maid is thus sometimes necessary especially if the spouse is not willing to help.
whosoever is able to get things done themselves without the help of a maid, well, so be it.
but to the rest who needs a maid, it doesnt matter what others say because whoever says that maid is a luxury will not be coming over to your house to help you. so get a maid if necessary. -
angelia286:
Just to share my experience with you on raising my child from birth to his present age of 1 year.
Hi angelia286,
Just to say that I am touched by what you have shared. I have not read anything in this thread (what maid or no maid?) except your posting.
I can only say that I NEED my maid. She is worth every cent I am paying her to look after my 3+ yo boy and to do housework so that I can go to work full-time.
Jia You, Jia You, all the best angelia!
:celebrate: -
DesertWind:
Me Too! I echoed that too. I need the additional support so that both my hubby and myself can work full time peacefully.
I can only say that I NEED my maid. She is worth every cent I am paying her to look after my 3+ yo boy and to do housework so that I can go to work full-time. -
angelia286:
I can totally understand about the childraising since I was totally in depression for about 2 years with the 1st child, totally exhausted too. And now with the 4th, am even more so from resentment. I guess that's the most depressing.
For myself, I was first raised by my grandmother, thereafter my 9th uncle and sometimes my 3rd uncle or even my 1st aunty. At times, my 4th aunty would step in to help out too.. all without demands of money.
My brother and I were both given 50cents as pocket money from primary school all the way to secondary school (where sometimes we will even go hungry as we do not have the money to buy food. My friends who were luckier have to help me buy stationaries and share their food with me). By the time I was 16, I was made to work and study at the same time. Straight after school, i will work at Mos Burger till the wee hours of 2 or 3am and then go home to study. By the 3rd year of my tertiary studies, I was soon unable to keep up with my schoolwork. My studies suffered. I was forced not to go to university due to the lack of money and my mother's selfishness.
Due to a lack of proper guidance, my brother and I were both rebellious as children and we have totally zero respect for my mother.
As for childhood, yeah, most of us grew up by ourselves, right? I was left on my own alone at home from 2+years old onwards during the day when mum was at work (dad passed away just before I was born) and when my elder siblings were at school. Certainly cannot afford to pay have anyone look after me, right? Even grandmother worked! So we all chipped in with taking care of the house/laundry/ironing and marketing as well, even from very young. Isn't that the norm in those days? Not everyone has grandparents who willingly look after.
Definitely all of us siblings looked for jobs by the time we were in secondary school, and throughout our holidays. I started giving tuition from 14years of age. Thankfully too. Regular tuition jobs plus holiday jobs helped me support myself through until I graduated from university. It built in me the inability to accept any help though. I just believed only in myself. Trying hard to build this same resilience in our kids, but sadly, their lives are way too cushy compared to ours in those days. Altho' when our kids compare themselves to their friends from much smaller families, they come up short.
But then, why compare? We just deal with it, right?
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