So angry, be warn, this is a rant session

[BeContented]

insider:

Kids start to politic earlier than during our time. They 'mature' much faster in this politicking sense perhaps due to competitions.　
Kids who are ostracised from a group usually fall into two categories - either they are slow or they are good. Slow ones got excluded coz the group worries such may pull the grade down and good ones sometimes may get ostracised coz there is another as good one in the group that leads to 一山不能藏二虎。When a group is not headed by a fair leader, there's not much group dynamics that we can really talk about and at P4, not easy for a child to really exhibit such leadership skills.

Perhaps it's really the start of 一山不能藏二虎.
From what it seems, DD may have the best results amongst the group based on CA1. L is a prefect, vocal and confident and to the point of pushy and from what I heard. Apparently, L refused to just group with anyone, L must choose her members. DD is not as vocal and confident, but she was a prefect in ex-sch too. So may be a 'threat'?? DD can be a little slower as she needs to EAT her recess, the rest skip. Also, sometimes she's a neat freak where she must keep her stuff first, so time taken.....I'll continue to try to get her to work faster. She a bit 傻大姐type, sometimes oblivious to surroundings......sigh.

insider:

Main objective of project work is supposed to let the kids learn about group dynamics and so grading should be based more on how a group collaborates and co-operates rather than the actual product itself after a project. The whole process of coming up with the product is far more important than the product itself. I wonder most of the teachers understand about this coz they seem to still value more of the product itself than the process which will result in this kind 'dispute'. Teachers' job is to ensure that each group is progressing well among team members and to mediate if there are hicups in the dynamics but I don't think your child's teacher has been doing that... This is another evident of of how Teach Less Learn More failed coz most teachers don't know what the objectives of project work are and still only looking at the final product to award grades.

If I were you, I will take this as a good opportunity to discuss with my child about school/work politics, that it is part and parcel of life and get her to reflect what made her got excluded from the group (her own weaknesses) and how to improve on those weaknesses. There's one thing that I instilled very strongly in my kids - conscience - that we must do our part and as long as we do that, we are not afraid of consequences. Even though some consequences may end up unfair/bad, we should still be able to sleep soundly and put the matter behind us..

Agree. That's why I wanted to let it rest as long as her name does not get omited. It's a chance to learn about working in group. Actually, the rest seems ok...but think they unable to stand up to L. From what I heard, 2 kept quiet and only one agreed to L's demand to omit her. I had already discussed with DD and told her about where her fault lies ie. being late for the meeting and still din forgo her recess break (actually, she needs to eat during recess but the rest dun). But honestly, I cant' fault her for being late cos' she has been assigned to perform some additional task by the teacher.

insider:

I will ask my child what she expects me to do if her name has been include/excluded from the group, whether to talk to L or teacher directly (talking to L directly is not appropriate) and listen to her 'strategy'. (every 'crisis' present itself a huge learning opportunity that parents need to seize to teach more on the intangible of wisdom, courage, etc.)
If her name is really excluded from the group during submission even when she put in efforts, teacher will ask, and from there, put up the case. (I don't think they dare to exclude her coz they should be intelligent enough not to stir shit for themselves). For being late in attending meetings, teacher may penalise some points and she has to accept gracefully).
If her name is included, then I will let the matter rest and move on and wait for the next... (don't worry so much first and see what come may for another project).

Good idea.
The mommy (her DD is in the group too & she was the one feeding me with all the feedback) was asking & asking me to speak to L and her mom....even to the extent of applying 'adult pressure to L & let L be wary'. I thot it was not appropriate....hence did not eventually.
I think you are right. I should just wait and see. Will only bring up the case if DD name is really omitted. Fortunately, this is not a core subject.....so I'm also more concerned with how is DD getting along with others. Can she work amiably in a group with different people? I sure hope the teachers are watching and monitoring. Would hate to have to face it again in the core projects.....

Thanks Insider for your sharing and advice. I specially took lunch to DD just now (1st time this year), just so that I know if she managed to 'contribute' today. She smiled and din say much....well, seems a good sign. Will only get more details this evening. Hope all turns well for future too.

[SAHM_TAN]

Chenonceau:

SAHM_TAN:

Maybe I too emotional, I cannot take it cool when my children get hurt by others.

I am that way too. I find it hard to LIKE children who are mean to my kids. Even after the issue is resolved and my kids have forgotten. On girl copied my daughter's work and topped the class for that assignment. Teacher did not notice that the 2 scripts were EXACTLY the same... and he also shrugged off the issue when my girl highlighted it (in a very roundabout way so as not to offend the Teacher). I remember and find it hard to be well disposed towards the young lady who for years has been a good friend of my daughter (even though my daughter never emailed assignments to anyone wholesale ever again). My daughter is very forgiving, which is good. But me... I just can't get rid of the residual distrust and dislike.

blurr teacher

[SAHM_TAN]

insider:

cwc:

Hi,

my DD has transferred to a new school this year.

I'm not sure what's the outcome yet. (PS: Submission next week)

I'm really contemplating asking to split DD from L in future in all projects.

Now I wonder, should I let it rest if they put her name back? My DD is quite bo-chap type and this time, I could see that she's upset.

GOSH, they are only P4 and already behaving so

Would you go to the teacher? Or any other suggestion? I thought of speaking to L, but I'm afraid she'll end up saying I pressure/bully her. So better let the teacher do it. Any advice?

Kids start to politic earlier than during our time. They 'mature' much faster in this politicking sense perhaps due to competitions.　

My eldest daughter's final year project at 19 years old could see severe politicking among her classmates. The backstabbing and the scheming in order to be in a pair that one 'aims' / 'desires'. Who talked bad about who and then who is right and who is wrong and what is true and what is not, etc, etc. She told me about all these but I told her good that she first experienced politics in school which is still relatively harmless and warned her that work politics will be much more worst coz it really involves promotion, money, and power.

Kids who are ostracised from a group usually fall into two categories - either they are slow or they are good. Slow ones got excluded coz the group worries such may pull the grade down and good ones sometimes may get ostracised coz there is another as good one in the group that leads to 一山不能藏二虎。When a group is not headed by a fair leader, there's not much group dynamics that we can really talk about and at P4, not easy for a child to really exhibit such leadership skills.

Main objective of project work is supposed to let the kids learn about group dynamics and so grading should be based more on how a group collaborates and co-operates rather than the actual product itself after a project. The whole process of coming up with the product is far more important than the product itself. I wonder most of the teachers understand about this coz they seem to still value more of the product itself than the process which will result in this kind 'dispute'. Teachers' job is to ensure that each group is progressing well among team members and to mediate if there are hicups in the dynamics but I don't think your child's teacher has been doing that... This is another evident of of how Teach Less Learn More failed coz most teachers don't know what the objectives of project work are and still only looking at the final product to award grades.

If I were you, I will take this as a good opportunity to discuss with my child about school/work politics, that it is part and parcel of life and get her to reflect what made her got excluded from the group (her own weaknesses) and how to improve on those weaknesses. There's one thing that I instilled very strongly in my kids - conscience - that we must do our part and as long as we do that, we are not afraid of consequences. Even though some consequences may end up unfair/bad, we should still be able to sleep soundly and put the matter behind us.

I will ask my child what she expects me to do if her name has been include/excluded from the group, whether to talk to L or teacher directly (talking to L directly is not appropriate) and listen to her 'strategy'. (every 'crisis' present itself a huge learning opportunity that parents need to seize to teach more on the intangible of wisdom, courage, etc).

If her name is really excluded from the group during submission even when she put in efforts, teacher will ask, and from there, put up the case. (I don't think they dare to exclude her coz they should be intelligent enough not to stir shit for themselves). For being late in attending meetings, teacher may penalise some points and she has to accept gracefully...

If her name is included, then I will let the matter rest and move on and wait for the next... (don't worry so much first and see what come may for another project).

PS: at lower levels, we really don't care about the final products. My preschoolers all working on mini projects. Teachers are not supposed to say which group constructed the best block buildings at the end, but they have to share that they could observe Group 1 members are getting along well, so and so guided so and so patiently, so and so was able to give way to other's opinion, so and so should not shout at so and so and should..., etc, etc. The final product is never an interest to us coz that's never the objective of project.

Did not know it can get so complicated in Primary school.

Will park the learning points for future ref. Thanks

[BeContented]

SAHM_TAN:

Chenonceau:

[quote=\"SAHM_TAN\"]Maybe I too emotional, I cannot take it cool when my children get hurt by others.

I am that way too. I find it hard to LIKE children who are mean to my kids. Even after the issue is resolved and my kids have forgotten. On girl copied my daughter's work and topped the class for that assignment. Teacher did not notice that the 2 scripts were EXACTLY the same... and he also shrugged off the issue when my girl highlighted it (in a very roundabout way so as not to offend the Teacher). I remember and find it hard to be well disposed towards the young lady who for years has been a good friend of my daughter (even though my daughter never emailed assignments to anyone wholesale ever again). My daughter is very forgiving, which is good. But me... I just can't get rid of the residual distrust and dislike.

blurr teacher[/quote]Ha, think we all feel for our children, hence would react this way......that's why kids are always very innocent when young, they forget easily. I'm sure we will turn to be better again.......when we start our 2nd childhood - dementia

[Faun]

3Boys:

:?


Am I alone in thinking its not a real big deal?

Small kids aren't always careful or aware about what they say, so I don't think we need to be too harsh on them. Yes, its not nice, but nobody got hurt. I tell my kids to ignore and if continues, to avoid. Some of my boys' closest friends in school, in a fit of pique, have acted and said worse things. The way I see it, the important thing is to teach our own children to see it in context, not feel hurt, and ride out the storms.

I see you believe in 'sticks and stones ...' unfortunately, words do hurt people sometimes. Even adults cannot take it if someone say 'you stupid' in your face. Psychological hurt can be worse then physical hurt as the child can't verbalise and externalize the pain he feels inside. Whether it is a big deal will depend on the frequency. If too often it is a form of verbal abuse. My friend's son was called a LOSER by his classmate for a couple of years. Coupled with the fact that he was a minority race, his self- esteem went way down low.

I think sometimes kids need adults to help intervene and stop name-calling if it gets too frequent.

[Laughing]

Are we getting more bully in school these days? My DD just told me that her classmate had been saying to her lately \"I don't want to see you face anymore!\"

[SAHM_TAN]

Laughing:

Are we getting more bully in school these days? My DD just told me that her classmate had been saying to her lately \"I don't want to see you face anymore!\"

Think kids watching adult drama series is not helping too. The language used by the actors are quite harsh. Now I only let them watching kiddie shows

[BeContented]

cwc:

Thanks Insider for your sharing and advice. I specially took lunch to DD just now (1st time this year), just so that I know if she managed to 'contribute' today. She smiled and din say much....well, seems a good sign. Will only get more details this evening. Hope all turns well for future too.

Hi Insider,
DD came home and seemed pleased cos' she managed to help out during recess (tho complaint of hunger cos she has to forgo recess). However, she has no idea if the whole issue is resolved cos' L totally ignored DD despite her effort to try speaking to her. It's back to the early days when L accused her of 'leeching' on another girl\".
Anyway, DD commented that L gave some instructions and when the rest queried, she said \"Can all of you dun ask so much, just LISTEN TO ME!!!\"......hmmmm......

Anyway, shall let it rest. Told DD to inform me if her name is taken out...will then go straight to Teacher for help. Really hope I dun have to and hope L will stop making unfair statements about DD. The price to pay to go to a more competitive school? Sigh.

[BeContented]

SAHM_TAN:

Laughing:

Are we getting more bully in school these days? My DD just told me that her classmate had been saying to her lately \"I don't want to see you face anymore!\"

Think kids watching adult drama series is not helping too. The language used by the actors are quite harsh. Now I only let them watching kiddie shows

Dun :clubmyself: me. Sometimes, our own behaviour and attitude could be sending the wrong teachings/signals to our children. Generally, kids are a reflection of the parents
The L mentioned in my posting....
when I first saw the mom in a sch event, I was like \"gosh\" (but I din know who she was)
When DD told me about L, I was like \"hmmmm\" (yet to meet L)
When I finally met both L and her mom together, I went \"now I see....no wonder.....\"

[SAHM_TAN]

cwc:

SAHM_TAN:

[quote=\"Laughing\"]Are we getting more bully in school these days? My DD just told me that her classmate had been saying to her lately \"I don't want to see you face anymore!\"

Think kids watching adult drama series is not helping too. The language used by the actors are quite harsh. Now I only let them watching kiddie shows

Dun :clubmyself: me. Sometimes, our own behaviour and attitude could be sending the wrong teachings/signals to our children. Generally, kids are a reflection of the parents
The L mentioned in my posting....
when I first saw the mom in a sch event, I was like \"gosh\" (but I din know who she was)
When DD told me about L, I was like \"hmmmm\" (yet to meet L)
When I finally met both L and her mom together, I went \"now I see....no wonder.....\" :|[/quote]That is true to an extent. I've also know of cases whereby child and parents are like cheese and chalk. There are so many factors..........