Post GE 2011 Discussion

[verykiasu2010]

ksi:

pixiedust:

[quote=\"ksi\"] ... Only those employers who are getting the benefit for hiring fw should not be griping and making so much noise. Those who are ranting about fw creating competition must be mainly employees who are struggling to make ends meet with high cost living and yet face competition from the cheaper labour..

Agree. However, the noise is drowning the other side of the story.

Hence it is good to hear of real incidents as shared by Funz. I think in cyberworld, this is the 1st time I actually read about anyone speaking up for the FT issue. The noteable fact is also in Funz's quote, the Singapore restaurant manager's job was also lost. This is the side impact explained by our government and many do not believe or hear.

There are many voters not directly impacted by either camp so we need a balanced view to make a decision.

I draw a difference between FT and FW. I think you are referring to FW. FT is to solve the lack of talent issue and FW is to solve the lack of cheap labour issue. We need to be clear which is which. From my earlier questioning, Busymom replied she saw FW as the issue Singaporeans are griping about, now I read from insider's post, she thinks FT is what Singaporeans are griping about. So maybe both are issues.

Funz' remarks are pointing mainly to FW. issues. With regards to FW issues, the reality is employers will favour the influx of FW due to better profit margin whereas the employees will not as it poses stiff competition. For me, I think Singaporeans other than ranting and griping about the competition, perhaps should also look to increase their value to the employer in order to gain the $500 premium starting pay against the FW. If just using the pink IC to fight the case of extra $500, both the government and the employers will not bite. We have been brought up in a meritocracy environment, citizens will not get perks directly in work competition but perhaps in other ways like in education, healthcare etc... Yes it is tough but this is the landscape in Singapore as an economic hub where everyone is pursuing results and profits. Having said this, there might be isolated cases where some people have experienced unfair treatment in education and healthcare...hence the pain of competition kicks in higher. On the whole, I find the problem definition is not very clear or supported by enough well-studied facts. All I know is when there is alot of noise coming from a group of people about FW, it pays to listen first, that is what the leadership has to do.

As for the FT issue, it's ironic to me that we have a widely-touted world-class education but we never produce enough talent and we are not talking about very specialised talent like building earthquake-proof architects or travel-to-the-moon astronauts etc.. we are talking about management staff, supposedly generalists. Most FTs mgt I know just so-called speak better and influence better but the locals mgt just work better.....thanks to our education? :laugh:

Finally if you ask me how a mini Singapore can compete in the global scene successfully...we need both types of giants in our people, both mental and physical. Size does matter, brain and body. Hopefully we can build a nation of people of average height 1.8m tall(for men) and 1.7m (for women) and a brain which can communicate and execute equally well.

And meanwhile to achieve that? It is burning a hole in the parents' pockets!!!!! [/quote]labour cost at every level is only one of the cost factors. the relentless increase in rental is a major factor too. the biz owners are squeezed from all sides

[verykiasu2010]

concern2:

verykiasu2010:

[quote=\"concern2\"]

How does Singapore benefit from this move, and what impact will it have for Singaporeans? Keen to learn something new here... :salute:

the spin off effect on the financial services sector: some jobs are directly created, more jobs are created indirectly, eg more biz for services of lawyers, accountants; other spin offs : more turnover for F&B, courier, travel, housing, transport, telecom, etc etc

it also has the multiplier effect, and the reverse is true too! like what i quoted the Maersk - PSA saga, indirect job lost is a few times the direct job lost....so many ship-supplies biz close down etc etc

Hmm...so I presume it is the same reasons for having Casinos, F1, YOG, ...

The multiplier effect would be pretty hard to estimate wouldn't it? Is there any resulting 'profits' that had been estimated/budgeted, and any form of 'performance appraisal' after that? Or more of \"Do it, then see\".. ? :?[/quote]you can estimate the revenue generating effect when they up the room rates and must book a minimum package etc, they use the telecom and transport, F&B, airline travels.......just try to recall the days of SARS when the shopping mall, food court, airlines, hotels, all empty .....and some of the banks' share price duly dropped to $3 or $4......we need the spin off more than the headline numbers

[corneyAmber]

verykiasu2010:

labour cost at every level is on one of the cost factors. the relentless increase in rental is a major factor too. the biz owners are squeezed from all sides

No leh...for FT, they cost many mega times more than local talent leh so local talent is cheaper in this case.... If they pay the same kind of mega bucks to our local talent, then more will take up the challenge? Just like how PAP bought the talent out of corporate world?

Rental I agree...the biggest winners are landlords, not businessmen. :rotflmao:

[SAHM_TAN]

verykiasu2010:

Augmum:

[quote=\"LOLMum\"]
went back a short time later and wow, window grills, pipes, kitchen sink, toilet bowls, towel bars, telephone lines/cables even bedrooms doors and frames all went missing. :scared:

:yikes: :roll: so quick-handed, must be very experience workers.

btw, are u talking abt the hse's tenants in JB ??

it affords you a new perspective of house robbery[/quote]know it's no laughing matter but verykiasu2010's reply cracks me up :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[Daddy D]

verykiasu2010:

those emc are not growing local operation, but growing more and more overseas, what is remaining in singapore is really for doing national service, to reduce the howling of job loss to singaporeans

sometime the singapore operation is run at a loss but the overseas operation help to absorb the loss. given a chance they rather hive all operations to overseas. i cannot name names here. i used to handle their finance and i know what numbers i am talking about

Cool... for corporates with regional presence... SG's sales figures are usually the lowest in the APAC region... due to economic of scale... worst when compared to other regions.
So what's SG's attraction in the long run? Let our policy makers do the hard work... since they're paid millions for the job.
I just think lowering cost is not a long term solution.

[Funz]

MummyThreeStreams:

Oppsgal:

But currently how many Singaporeans are jobless too :?

On a seasonally adjusted basis, 57,100 locals were unemployed in Mar 2011. This corresponds to a resident unemployment rate of 2.7%, which is pretty much full-employment (full employment does not mean zero unemployment, as there will always be people in between jobs and looking for jobs). (Data from MOM, http://www.mom.gov.sg. It's actually the lowest since 2001.

Of course, the unemployment rate doesn't tell us everything, but it is an important indicator to be taken together with a range of other indicators. OK some really basic economics (pl forgive me if I haven't gotten it all right, it's been awhile).

This figure alone tells us that the labour market is getting tight. This means that 1) employers can't get enough workers to expand their businesses, or in some cases, keep their business going; 2) in the absence of alternative sources of labour (read: foreign workers), wages will have to rise (because labour demand outstrips labour supply.

For (2) some people may cheer and say yay! higher wages! but what does this really translate to? (a) higher prices; (b) for those businesses who are unable to raise prices, it could mean smaller profit margins, or losses; (c) businesses who are unable to raise wages may not be able to sustain their businesses, and decide to close shop and shed labour. Theoretically, these workers who are made redundant can then go and work for those who are still willing and able to hire, until an equilibrium is reached. But there will be higher prices all around (note, wage inflation is not the only source of price rises). As workers we are happy, but as consumers, we may not be so happy...and not all of us are workers, but all of us are consumers.

Note too that in many cases, there is a skill shortage, so even if businesses increases wages, he will not be able to hire anyone to do the job. This also means that some of those who lose their jobs may not be able to find new jobs because their skills are obsolete.

Now, if businesses have access to foreign workers, the labour market becomes more flexible - labour supply can be augmented by foreign workers and wages will not have to rise to quickly; those facing skills shortages will be able to source internationally for those who posses the right skill-set. If you look at the data, you will see that during good times, there is a sharp rise in foreign labour, and during bad times, they are also the first jobs to be shed (of course anecdotally you will tell me that you have seen local workers being retrenched before foreign workers, or foreigners being hired before locals, but here i am talking about economy-wide effects).

OK, that is the economics. In reality, government doesn't wait until a full-employment situation before allowing foreign workers to come in. Just not possible. So, you may have a lower priced foreign worker competing with a local for the same job. To help balance things out, the government has put in barriers, such as levies, quotas and others so that it is not so easy for businesses to hire foreign workers, but it doesn't make sense to tilt the playing field so much that no-one will hire foreigners. (I am not an employer, but I have also heard anecdotally from many employers that they would much rather hire a local than a foreigner, though you will also tell me otherwise. That's why I don't like dealing with anecdotes..) The government also encourages workers to go for training so that they won't be obsolete and employers won't always complain about skills shortage.

I am not arguing for more foreigners. I am just laying out the economics of it and the implications of different policy responses.

If the government now decides to pull back on access to foreign workers, then we must accept that there may be lower, slower growth. This is the trade-off.

We can't have our cake and eat it. In fact, MOM did announce changes to the foreign worker levy earlier and businesses were very unhappy about it. I think some businesses would argue that our labour market has not been open enough. I hear complaints about how MOM won't allow them to hire enough foreigners and that they can't find workers in Singapore. But strangely, I did not hear them speak up for keeping our labour market relatively open when there were anti-foreign worker sentiments expressed during the elections. funz has shared her experience as an employer and I think such voices need to be heard too. Not because I think this view holds more water. But because for each policy issue, there are many different stakeholders and for each policy response, there will be different implications for different groups of stakeholders. The Government needs to decide on where to draw the line. Certainly, they do not (as some have suggested) want a situation where the economy is dominated by foreigners. If this were the case, there would be no quota, no levy, no controls at all. But there are controls in place. It's all about finding the right balance.

Is it the labour market policy we're unhappy with or the other effects, such as overcrowding etc. if it's the latter, then the solution is not to reduce our supply of foreigners, but to improve our infrastructure so that we can cope with it.

As citizens, we cannot only ask the government to do something for us. we should also ask them to explain - so what's the implication of this or that on me or my neighbour? or maybe point out these implications to them, in case they haven't thought about it. but we must understand that most of the time, even if a policy makes someone better off, someone will be worse off. There is always a trade-off. And we must understand what exactly we are unhappy with - is it the policy itself, or implications of the policy.

OK, enough of my verbal diarrhoea. Don't flame me ok? I think I've been dealing with too much kids stuff being stuck at home I feel I gotta exercise my rusty brain a bit...

Anyway, gotta get back to my kids now.

:celebrate: All the things I wanna say and more.

[concern2]

Funz:

I think the question asked was about unemployment rate not standard of living. So yes, self employed, tuition teachers, taxi drivers, all considered employed.

And to be SAHM that is a personal choice right? So what you driving at?

Sorry if I missed some of the earlier discussion - when I saw unemployment rate, what comes to my mind is that it is one of the measurements standard of living - or not?

[3Boys]

ksi:

No leh...for FT, they cost many mega times more than local talent leh so local talent is cheaper in this case.... If they pay the same kind of mega bucks to our local talent, then more will take up the challenge?

Actually, with the way the SG dollar is these days, that is not necessarily true anymore. If the philosophy of a worker is, 'pay me first, then I step up', then it is not the type of worker I prefer to employ, Singaporean or not. The big paying jobs are there, if you have the inclination and drive, step up, and you will be rewarded.

[SAHM_TAN]

concern2:

No offence intended, but I alredi have culture shock when I pass by Little India on weekends. We have to toot our way through the lanes in order to get to the main road. Often by 6pm, there will be police on guard in teams. :nailbite: It is a Singapore unlike any HDB area.

Ya Little India quite special. I can say without fear of being stoned because I live in the area. It's ok lah, those who drive must be careful because they really don't care about right of way or any traffic rules. Littering is a problem but it will be cleared up quite fast. There is no real danger, before the policing started, I still feel quite safe. Now with the policing, it's more orderly in the sense of human traffic and they will not group anywhere they like.

I look at it as they need someplace to catch up and little india is the best place to do so, with the food, marketing and stuff. We always joke that during wkends we are the tourists.

[DesertWind]

verykiasu2010:

limlim:

[quote=\"verykiasu2010\"]
and the jamban lady moved out from LHL's grc, or originally not there ?

What is jamban?
If they really want to groom TPL, they can always keep her by PM's side, instead of pushing to SM..

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: the one who created the table tennis storm :rotflmao: :rotflmao:[/quote]Let me tell you this, I SWEAR to myself if they did not remove the jamban lady who was previously in AMK GRC, I would cast my vote the other way irregardless!

So BIG BRO must have heard my swearing and hence moved the jamban lady to Yishun GRC instead. This proofs that BIG BRO was listening to people's feedback and also he has since apologized for all the mishaps that happened which garnered him higher votes!

On the apology, actually in my humble opinion, why should he be apologising for the Orchard Road flood? :? Similarly, what has mas salamat disappearance got to do with WKS? Go find the prison warden lah!

Anyway, I have no idea what is a \"jamban\" but I also refer to the woman MP of the \"Table Tennis Saga\" :mad: :rant: .

TPL in AMK GRC? Siow ah!!!! I think not in Big Bro's right mind will he do that! But why TPL in Marine Parade? I would like to see it in a positive light that perhaps SM Goh was the most diplomatic of all the ministers to be able to handle this hot-potato. Given his reply also he had to handle his wife's comments on peanuts. I see this as giving to him credit although it costs him much votes - poor thing!

That's why I say Big Bro in AMK GRC DESERVES the high vote of confidence. Other theories about weak opposition aside!

BTW, I am able to logon to KSP in my office computer liow!
:dancing: