All About T-Score

[ppnqq]

Would like to check something. I have noticed that usually there are still some ‘gap’ between the points given for Express and NA for most schools. E.g. for express it’s 238-257 and NA is 185-199. How about those who had gotten the points in between these two? Does it mean for those who had gotten between 200-237 will have a choice between either Express or NA?


Would appreciate if any of you can enlighten me on this. Thank you.

[jtoh]

vidhyalog:

jtoh:

That's why the top scorer is usually Malay, Indian or originally from China. You don't see many local Chinese toP scorers.

If you are suggesting the top scorers are Indian or Malay because of easy Mother Tongue papers - then you may be mistaken. The post clearly states in the years of tough Tamil or Malay papers and easy Chinese papers the toppers may be Indian or Malay - the good Tamil and Malay students get a greater advantage in their T-score due to the lower SD for these papers - as they are minorities - not because papers are easy.

By that token it is the non chinese parents of average students who should be crying unfair - because the Chinese paper was easy and the other papers weren't.

I think the suggestion (and I do think there is one) that non-Chinese papers are easier (hence 'different' level of difficulty) is a little distateful. My first distasteful experience of this forum - but to be expected I guess.

Tamil is a language spoken from 300 BC - it is rich in its tradition and very complex in its development. Tamil grammar is extremely difficult to master - I understand in Mandarin it is the strokes and the memorisation of the words - as it is hieroglyphic - however, from what I understand tense, pronouns etc are to be understood using the context (I understand there is only one word \"tha\" signifying both she and he - used in context). In tamil it is the grammar that is deadly - also it is a diaglossic language - formal tamil is vastly different from spoken tamil. Tamil one of the few diaglossic languages still surviving in usage today.

I have learnt 4 languages in my life - although Tamil is my mother tongue, I only speak it, do not read or write - and I struggled coaching my son in Tamil. I have learnt German for 3 years and was a top student at my year in NUS for the language - so it is not due to lack of ability to learn languages that I found Tamil difficult.

Let us not fall into the trap of disparaging others' languages by insinuating that their language or therefore their papers are easier - for whatever reason - all for a thing like PSLE. What is the use of top PSLE marks if we cannot be decent human beings and respect others? The top Malay and Indian students who do well do so out of merit. The Chinese students who do well also do so out of merit. And maybe the top student maynot be Singaporean Chinese - but I am sure the majority of students in the top are SG Chinese - as they would rightly be given their majority in the population.

For me personally - I feel all languages have their own beauty and their challenges. I am looking forward to learning Mandarin soon - to add another dimension to my knowledge of languages.

Hi vidhyalog,

I believe you're mistaken and reading too much into my one short sentence. At no point did I say nor insinuate that the Malay and Indian papers were easier. Indeed it was pointed out by earlier posters that the Malay and Indians did better in the years where the papers were tougher, due to the smaller SD. That is a point I believe too. At no point did I disparage the Malay or Tamil languages. I fail to see how you could read so much into one short sentence.

I believe that the students taking Malay and Tamil and who do well in PSLE are very strong in their respective languages. As are the China-born Chinese who are very strong in Chinese, much more so than most of our local Chinese and that is why they are able to score much better than the majority. And that is why my one short sentence also mentioned that China-born Chinese are able to do well too.

I don't recall anyone on this thread saying that Malays and Indians do better because of easier papers, so I don't know how you could have drawn this conclusion.

I am personally offended that you think that I insinuated things that I did not, that you find certain things distasteful when no one has actually said these things. Worse of all, I find it offensive that you have attributed these comments to me from my one short sentence.

[jtoh]

Hi vidhyalog,


I’ve read through the comments immediately preceding mine and have a better idea of where you may have gotten the impression that you did. Those comments did mention a difference in difficulty level of mother tongues. When I wrote my comment it was in response to matadorepy’s comment about the calculation of T-score and why MT scores are important in the computation of T-scores. I had not read the comments about the difference in difficulty level at the point that I posted my comment.

Let me assure you that at no point was I trying to put down the Malay or Tamil papers. Which is why I was shocked to read your comments to my one short statement. And why I took offence to insinuations attributed to me when I have never harboured any such thoughts.

[Alchemist]

jtoh:

vidhyalog:

[quote=\"jtoh\"]That's why the top scorer is usually Malay, Indian or originally from China. You don't see many local Chinese toP scorers.

If you are suggesting the top scorers are Indian or Malay because of easy Mother Tongue papers - then you may be mistaken. The post clearly states in the years of tough Tamil or Malay papers and easy Chinese papers the toppers may be Indian or Malay - the good Tamil and Malay students get a greater advantage in their T-score due to the lower SD for these papers - as they are minorities - not because papers are easy.

By that token it is the non chinese parents of average students who should be crying unfair - because the Chinese paper was easy and the other papers weren't.

I think the suggestion (and I do think there is one) that non-Chinese papers are easier (hence 'different' level of difficulty) is a little distateful. My first distasteful experience of this forum - but to be expected I guess.

Tamil is a language spoken from 300 BC - it is rich in its tradition and very complex in its development. Tamil grammar is extremely difficult to master - I understand in Mandarin it is the strokes and the memorisation of the words - as it is hieroglyphic - however, from what I understand tense, pronouns etc are to be understood using the context (I understand there is only one word \"tha\" signifying both she and he - used in context). In tamil it is the grammar that is deadly - also it is a diaglossic language - formal tamil is vastly different from spoken tamil. Tamil one of the few diaglossic languages still surviving in usage today.

I have learnt 4 languages in my life - although Tamil is my mother tongue, I only speak it, do not read or write - and I struggled coaching my son in Tamil. I have learnt German for 3 years and was a top student at my year in NUS for the language - so it is not due to lack of ability to learn languages that I found Tamil difficult.

Let us not fall into the trap of disparaging others' languages by insinuating that their language or therefore their papers are easier - for whatever reason - all for a thing like PSLE. What is the use of top PSLE marks if we cannot be decent human beings and respect others? The top Malay and Indian students who do well do so out of merit. The Chinese students who do well also do so out of merit. And maybe the top student maynot be Singaporean Chinese - but I am sure the majority of students in the top are SG Chinese - as they would rightly be given their majority in the population.

For me personally - I feel all languages have their own beauty and their challenges. I am looking forward to learning Mandarin soon - to add another dimension to my knowledge of languages.

Hi vidhyalog,

I believe you're mistaken and reading too much into my one short sentence. At no point did I say nor insinuate that the Malay and Indian papers were easier. Indeed it was pointed out by earlier posters that the Malay and Indians did better in the years where the papers were tougher, due to the smaller SD. That is a point I believe too. At no point did I disparage the Malay or Tamil languages. I fail to see how you could read so much into one short sentence.

I believe that the students taking Malay and Tamil and who do well in PSLE are very strong in their respective languages. As are the China-born Chinese who are very strong in Chinese, much more so than most of our local Chinese and that is why they are able to score much better than the majority. And that is why my one short sentence also mentioned that China-born Chinese are able to do well too.

I don't recall anyone on this thread saying that Malays and Indians do better because of easier papers, so I don't know how you could have drawn this conclusion.

I am personally offended that you think that I insinuated things that I did not, that you find certain things distasteful when no one has actually said these things. Worse of all, I find it offensive that you have attributed these comments to me from my one short sentence.[/quote]
Jtoh - I owe you an apology for tagging the wrong quote. I meant to tag to another comment which did inisinuate there is differential and hence mother tongue should be removed is consideration -

\"Haha, but verykiasu2010 brought out an important point, since the MT papers differ in difficulty, isnt it rather unfair? Sigh..guess no choice but it is still something that leaves me thinking and thinking..\" And the previous comemnts on the fact MT should be taken out to even out the 'racial' component in the PSLE scores - together with its number censored signs.

These are the quote that spurred the comments I had - but I inadvertently tagged it to your message. And I apologise sincerely for that lapse of following etiquette.

I suppose that writer can also defend herself/himself by saying that he/she meant it for all the MT papers.

Nevertheless - again - apologies for offending you - I still hold my view that there is a drift of maintaining non parity in MT papers - but it is not attributable to you - hence I was wrong in not having put that as a new post.


I guess this is a touchy topic - and perhaps should have reserved my views. - as did the person who tagged several censored to the post.

[Alchemist]

jtoh:

Hi vidhyalog,


I've read through the comments immediately preceding mine and have a better idea of where you may have gotten the impression that you did. Those comments did mention a difference in difficulty level of mother tongues. When I wrote my comment it was in response to matadorepy's comment about the calculation of T-score and why MT scores are important in the computation of T-scores. I had not read the comments about the difference in difficulty level at the point that I posted my comment.

Let me assure you that at no point was I trying to put down the Malay or Tamil papers. Which is why I was shocked to read your comments to my one short statement. And why I took offence to insinuations attributed to me when I have never harboured any such thoughts.

Thank you for understanding. Our conciliatory messages crossed paths. Notwithstanding the name of this forum - I have met some wonderful people here - no wishes to offended anybody.

[jtoh]

vidhyalog:

Jtoh - I owe you an apology for tagging the wrong quote. I meant to tag to another comment which did inisinuate there is differential and hence mother tongue should be removed is consideration -

\"Haha, but verykiasu2010 brought out an important point, since the MT papers differ in difficulty, isnt it rather unfair? Sigh..guess no choice but it is still something that leaves me thinking and thinking..\" And the previous comemnts on the fact MT should be taken out to even out the 'racial' component in the PSLE scores - together with its number censored signs.

These are the quote that spurred the comments I had - but I inadvertently tagged it to your message. And I apologise sincerely for that lapse of following etiquette.

I suppose that writer can also defend herself/himself by saying that he/she meant it for all the MT papers.

Nevertheless - again - apologies for offending you - I still hold my view that there is a drift of maintaining non parity in MT papers - but it is not attributable to you - hence I was wrong in not having put that as a new post.


I guess this is a touchy topic - and perhaps should have reserved my views. - as did the person who tagged several censored to the post.

Hi vidhyalog,

Thanks for clearing the air and for the apology. As I mentioned in my earlier post, after reading the posts immediately preceding my quoted statement I realized where you may have gotten the impression that you did.

No hard feelings.

[jtoh]

vidhyalog:

jtoh:

Hi vidhyalog,


I've read through the comments immediately preceding mine and have a better idea of where you may have gotten the impression that you did. Those comments did mention a difference in difficulty level of mother tongues. When I wrote my comment it was in response to matadorepy's comment about the calculation of T-score and why MT scores are important in the computation of T-scores. I had not read the comments about the difference in difficulty level at the point that I posted my comment.

Let me assure you that at no point was I trying to put down the Malay or Tamil papers. Which is why I was shocked to read your comments to my one short statement. And why I took offence to insinuations attributed to me when I have never harboured any such thoughts.

Thank you for understanding. Our conciliatory messages crossed paths. Notwithstanding the name of this forum - I have met some wonderful people here - no wishes to offended anybody.

Yes there are some wonderful people here. Good luck to your son on his PSLE. I hope he does well and gets into his dream school.

[kittybank]

good, now jtoh and vidhyalog can :celebrate:


race thingy always touchy

[verykiasu2010]

vidhyalog:

Jtoh - I owe you an apology for tagging the wrong quote. I meant to tag to another comment which did inisinuate there is differential and hence mother tongue should be removed is consideration -

\"Haha, but verykiasu2010 brought out an important point, since the MT papers differ in difficulty, isnt it rather unfair? Sigh..guess no choice but it is still something that leaves me thinking and thinking..\" And the previous comemnts on the fact MT should be taken out to even out the 'racial' component in the PSLE scores - together with its number censored signs.

These are the quote that spurred the comments I had - but I inadvertently tagged it to your message. And I apologise sincerely for that lapse of following etiquette.

I suppose that writer can also defend herself/himself by saying that he/she meant it for all the MT papers.

Nevertheless - again - apologies for offending you - I still hold my view that there is a drift of maintaining non parity in MT papers - but it is not attributable to you - hence I was wrong in not having put that as a new post.


I guess this is a touchy topic - and perhaps should have reserved my views. - as did the person who tagged several censored to the post.

I am truly offended by the alleged insinuation that was made out by you being overly sensitive over 6 words.

Please read my post again : \"difficulty differential between the different MT\" - it could mean any of the MT paper could be more difficult than any of the other MT paper. Why do you have to be so sensitive to interpret it as TL or ML being easier than CL ? Why can't you read it the other way round ? Obviously you have put on a pair of tinted glasses in reading those postings.

I think the context of the discussion was that TL or ML could be tougher and hence the t-score higher because of the variance and SD in the t-score formula, hence when the MT papers are tough, good student will be thrown up with high t-score

And for the matter, language being language, how to judge and who to judge a CL or ML or TL paper is easier or more difficult than the other ? Unless the student takes all three MT papers ? What is difficult to you could be easy to others, and vice versa.

[Snow Crystal]

ppnqq:

Would like to check something. I have noticed that usually there are still some 'gap' between the points given for Express and NA for most schools. E.g. for express it's 238-257 and NA is 185-199. How about those who had gotten the points in between these two? Does it mean for those who had gotten between 200-237 will have a choice between either Express or NA?


Would appreciate if any of you can enlighten me on this. Thank you.

You are referring to CHIJ TP and the scores you mention are the public ie non affiliated score ranges under S1 posting. The missing link is the affiliated girls' score ranges. Please see below for full picture. A good website is MOE website School Information System for these past year stats.

Aggregate range of 2010 Primary 6 pupils posted to 2011 Secondary 1

 \tNon-Affiliation\tAffiliation
 \tLower\tUpper\tMean\tMedian\tLower\tUpper\tMean\tMedian
Normal Academic\t 185\t 199\t 191\t 191\t 154\t 189\t 175\t 181
Express\t 238\t 257\t 242\t 241\t 193\t 264\t 225\t 228
Normal Technical\tNone-posted\tNone-posted\tNone-posted\tNone-posted

FYI - CHIJ TP has COP of 200 for 2012 Sec 1 affiliated girls.

Any CHIJ TP parent please correct me if wrong. I am not a parent there.