Child Underperforms Because Tested Above Cognitive Level
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buds:
It's certainly nice to hear positive experiences with the education system too! It's very encouraging - and helps give parents confidence that their children will manage alright. No war here in KSP lah!!buds:
Personal experiences are what separates many n I am trying to grasp the frustrations of many from the small not-so-pleasant experiences we've had. Just that most times issues of whatever kind have been resolved quickly n positively btwn teachers and/or HODs/Principal.
But I do agree tt our system is not world class.
With the kind of Science textbooks we have, far from it I say..Funz:
Mine in upper primary but still hardly have any issues to date.I so agree with this. With DD, I hardly have any issues. Maybe cos she is still in lower Pr. With DS however, I am facing some frustrations. It could be the school, it could be the teacher, it could be due to DS himself. He is only in P1 so I reserve judgement.
Ya, P1 still too early to tell but good to observe and monitor. Could be a case of just \"that\" teacher.. could be school.. as long as you can keep him motivated regardless of what he comments on the goings-on in class/school. :hugs:Funz:
I like that MOE has done away with exams for P1 and 2, wish it could be done away with all the way to P4 and if I want to be idealistic, no PSLE at all.
You wished!
Aniwaes, yes i loike it too that they've done away with that for mostly P1s.Funz:
Yes! Yes! I love love love the use of Stellar and cannot rave about it enough! The students learn so much more, they learn soft skills and presentation skills... reali goes beyond just teaching structured English components textbook style.I like the introduction of Stellar for teaching English.
Then again, subjective to teacher bah.
Stellar books/big books come with some prepared materials and the rest are *teacher-prepared materials (*if they add on). :nailbite:Funz:
Same.. :siao:Models for math, however, is driving me nuts.
Funz:
YES TO BOTH! :celebrate:The move to single session is also something that I am in favour of, would be better if they can mandate that all schools start only at 8am and school buses will have to follow that schedule. I wish they will start Science at P1 and not only at P3 :yikes:
Funz:
Then our #2 is same age, Funz. It works for us too, yes, even at P3 now. It has gotten more challenging and the teachers are more anal abt how they answer OE Comprehension these days which i love and also give extra focus on punctuation (often overlooked) and also beginning synthesis (jiejie started synthesis at P4).For now, I do really see the teach less learn more thing working where DD is concerned. I see DD's school doing away with rote learning and drilling and more experiential learning. I see more emphasis on verbal and presentation skills, on reasoning and thinking skills. So far, I have not yet experienced the testing beyond cognitive level or what has been taught. Then again, like I say, DD is only in P3.
Both of them have never been tested beyond cognitive level as well.
Whatever has been taught will be tested... and parents are informed that there a certain number of star* questions which are there meant to sift the creme of the crop. Not frequently exposed questions in class but have been shown how to do. Guess this is meant for streaming purposes. But parents are informed that it's fine if students cannot get them right.Funz:
Mine has homework on and off, which is ok with me as it will prep her for the heavier workload in P4.Then when I look at DS, I'm trying to reconcile the 2 experiences. Stellar according to DS is totally different from what DD had experienced. His school/teacher still does a fair bit of rote work and they believe in homework. To date, not much emphasis on verbal/preso skills (aka show & tell). I am still hoping that since it is only P1 and we are only into the 2nd mth, what they are doing is laying foundation and things will get interesting for DS soon.
Funz:
Same same oso..So far, my kids are pulling band 1 grades on most of their mini tests so I don't feel so strongly about this issue.
The mini tests are very helpful cos i can jump in with some pumping in case i see some lapse or some concept problem. Easier to tackle if they stumble upon obstacles in this mini tests as compared to no tests at all and get choked to death at SA1 results. :faint:Funz:
Yes... i actually scared :nailbite: to be in this thread... *gulp* war path is quite an apt description.. *gulp* .. because my path has different bridge as we have come to terms with.. *bigger gulp* .. but if the war path does eventually benefit children all over the nation with standardized everything, then it'd be a fruitful path.. after all i still have one more tiger to go thru the primary school journey.Give me another year or 2 and I may be on a similar war path as Chen, then again, maybe not, it all boils down to what we experience with our kids.
But now i siam :siam: first..
Chenonceau dahling.. i'm just sharing the other side of the bridge experience here orh.. don't flame my tree. :please:
:xedfingers:
PS. Pssst.. DD1's Math teacher showing some colour and hubs is :mad: and :rant: each time there's Maths homework and because he is more impatient than me i'm sure he'd be flamin' posts if he knew this thread exists.
I'm gonna give the teacher some time before she gets into those helluva crappy mondays syndrome of mine. :torchme:
DD1's teacher... you've been cautioned. :nunchuk: -
My impression of STELLAR is that there is much potential in the program, to incalculate an appreciation for the Language, to hone technical grammatical skills, and it exposes children to a range of vocabulary. However, correct me if I am wrong, the concern with STELLAR is the uneven application or adoption of this program across the schools, or even across the different cohorts within a school. In my son’s school, the STELLAR booklets used every year are different. I have no problems with the materials that my son receives or is using; however an upper Primary kid’s mommy does not like the STELLAR system at all, because the materials for her kid’s level are much weaker.
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Buds... I know you've had great experiences. I know also you know how to manage Teachers... and schools. It doesn't mean the system has no problems. We're not talking about the same thing so we can actually agree. You see your tree and it is a beautiful tree. I am trying to see the forest.
I agree you have a lovely tree. I agree with that there are many lovely trees around just like yours... and many are unknown neighbourhood schools. But there are many many sick trees in the forest too.
Ads such as the following don't happen if the SYSTEM is robust.
![](\"http://i42.tinypic.com/1t379v.jpg\")
http://i42.tinypic.com/1t379v.jpg\">
Further, you have stated that your school WRITES good materials. My questions are...
(1) Should teachers be expected to TEACH, MARK, COUNSEL... and WRITE?
(2) Should teachers test beyond what they teach?
(3) How many schools run Stellar?
(4) How many teachers run Stellar the way it should be run?
It's no use talking about single trees (your tree and your friends' trees or the GEP special tree) when so many other trees in the forest are sick. If tomorrow, your school Principal were replaced, and a lousy Principal came in and thus, your kids had to go through a hard time, then what'll you do? Put your kids in the school your current Principal goes to?
My DS has no Stellar. His English teacher makes spelling mistakes that HE does not make. His Chinese teacher asks the class to contribute tuition materials for sharing. His Math teacher says \"This kind of questions, we have not covered\" but that exact type of question was asked in the exam 2 weeks later.
Your tree is not sick, but it could get sick unless there are systemic mechanisms to strengthen every school and every teacher NO MATTER where in the country.
My DS' school had a great Principal 7 years ago. The compo materials that he was given in P3 and P4 are about as old. DS gets no Chinese compo materials AT ALL. The school doesn't WRITE them. Principals move around. If or when your school gets a lousy Principal who hires prostitutes and believes in teaching from the textbooks only etc... what would you do? Go and manage the Principal? What is happening to me and my DS... psle2011mum... beanbear... janet... fifiyeo... peony... pixiedust can well happen to you.
It just takes one change of Principal. Unless there are other non-human strengtheners of the system.
(1) better textbooks
(2) better policies on teaching and testing
(3) e-sharing platform for teachers
I am not trying to flame you. But if we don't keep the pressure up, a sick forest will just get more sick simply because people in MOE believe it is a world class forest. So buds, it's not you. -
buds:
Buds
Same same oso..Funz:
So far, my kids are pulling band 1 grades on most of their mini tests so I don't feel so strongly about this issue.
The mini tests are very helpful cos i can jump in with some pumping in case i see some lapse or some concept problem. Easier to tackle if they stumble upon obstacles in this mini tests as compared to no tests at all and get choked to death at SA1 results. :faint:
Enjoy your sharing!
I believe they shd be ablt to get high band2 or band one if they have been able to complete their daily work on their own. Most schools will not have that many 'difficult questions' esp during CAs -
doodbug:
My impression of STELLAR is that there is much potential in the program, to incalculate an appreciation for the Language, to hone technical grammatical skills, and it exposes children to a range of vocabulary. However, correct me if I am wrong, the concern with STELLAR is the uneven application or adoption of this program across the schools, or even across the different cohorts within a school. In my son's school, the STELLAR booklets used every year are different. I have no problems with the materials that my son receives or is using; however an upper Primary kid's mommy does not like the STELLAR system at all, because the materials for her kid's level are much weaker.
:goodpost:
i have seen the Stellar worksheets of my nephew's sch and my boy's sch last year and the standard was distinctively different. -
jedamum:
What is common, are the big books!doodbug:
My impression of STELLAR is that there is much potential in the program, to incalculate an appreciation for the Language, to hone technical grammatical skills, and it exposes children to a range of vocabulary. However, correct me if I am wrong, the concern with STELLAR is the uneven application or adoption of this program across the schools, or even across the different cohorts within a school. In my son's school, the STELLAR booklets used every year are different. I have no problems with the materials that my son receives or is using; however an upper Primary kid's mommy does not like the STELLAR system at all, because the materials for her kid's level are much weaker.
:goodpost:
i have seen the Stellar worksheets of my nephew's sch and my boy's sch last year and the standard was distinctively different.
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(1) How many schools have Stellar?
(2) How many teachers deliver Stellar they way it should be delivered?
My DS is in P6… 2nd best class of the his cohort. This is his English homework. 3 short newspaper articles (each about 5 to 6 cm of print). Write 5 sentences about your thoughts. Clearly, teacher didn’t wanna mark too much but had a quota of homework pieces to give.
This is the kind of homework P6-es get when they have to face PSLE at the end of this year. -
Chenonceau:
This one sounds like a random assignment to me, heh.(1) How many schools have Stellar?
(2) How many teachers deliver Stellar they way it should be delivered?
My DS is in P6... 2nd best class of the his cohort. This is his English homework. 3 short newspaper articles (each about 5 to 6 cm of print). Write 5 sentences about your thoughts. Clearly, teacher didn't wanna mark too much but had a quota of homework pieces to give.
If that's all to the instructions, it sounds pretty directionless.
But you know, we're a pretty compliant nation. It's not in our consciousness to ask why we have to do certain things or whether there is any learning value, and many of us accept 'because teacher says so' as sufficient reason to accept. -
Chenonceau:
Buds... I know you've had great experiences. I know also you know how to manage Teachers... and schools.
Chenonceau babe.. :hugs: Don't get me wrong, having many good experiences does not mean that we never had negative ones. In fact we had one or two that was worth a public apology. I suppose it's not reali about how to manage teachers and schools (cos i don't know how to do that :scratchhead: ) but i guess it could be abt managing expectations. Mebbe because i have no particular expectations. Can liddat? :skeptical: Chenonceau:
Hmmm.. i have always agreed with you on this girl, that i didn't mean to say the system has no problems. I mean which system doesn't right? By forest we mean to say... 100 over primary schools, perhaps? So if i have 20 friends from 20 different neighbourhood n SAP schools that means still got hope? :please:It doesn't mean the system has no problems. We're not talking about the same thing so we can actually agree. You see your tree and it is a beautiful tree. I am trying to see the forest.
While my children and my friends' children enjoy their beautiful trees, i listen ... i read.. i try to understand the why the other trees are falling sick or have fallen sick.Chenonceau:
While i've heard few sick trees in the forest (and mostly from SAP schools) again i agree that there ARE sick trees. However, i do notice that it is not about the school as a whole sometimes or not about just the system at times.. it's more about teachers perhaps.. specific teachers. Sick teachers?I agree you have a lovely tree. I agree with that there are many lovely trees around just like yours... and many are unknown neighbourhood schools. But there are many many sick trees in the forest too.
Could it be that just some teachers just cannot make it?
Passed through the system and the testing and thrown into the forest.. lost?
We may each have one very bad experience that may have been detrimental to our child's learning that may not necessarily be a school problem or a system crutch.. mebbe? I'm just thinking aloud..
Cos we had a few of our own and moved on.
*The specific ppl eventually left the industry. Yup. For good.*
In this case it is reali good riddance. :torchme:Chenonceau:
Mine doesn't attend any so i won't comment on the above.Ads such as the following don't happen if the SYSTEM is robust.
Chenonceau:
Aaaah.. here's the beauty i noticed about the writing. It's not one person's writing. They are shared writings. Shared materials. Shared resources. Everyone seems to chip in some and HODs collate to make one solid wan. This is what you want MOE to do? Mebbe to expect a revolutionary change from the top is wee bit challenging..? Perhaps it could start from the ground like within schools? Then the schools submit to MOE and MOE's curriculum specialists get down to standardizing one solid material based on every educator's resources?Further, you have stated that your school WRITES good materials. My questions are...
This was how my curriculum planning got formulated. (during my teaching days) And yes, after that everybody shared... and yes, everybody benefitted, teachers and children included. Execution is an entirely different thing though, cos there were still major complains abt some teachers. So, i see it as a ppl problem more than a system problem cos we had everything in place.Chenonceau:
Because every dept and every teacher had their fair share of sharing and responsibilities fulfilled, they teach... and from the heart... they mark... conscientiously every single sentence in every composition my children have written (immediate reflection of errors and of what kind) plus feedback... they counsel... when children have a bad day or if there were mini kiddie-scuffles on and off (values inculcation in play) and they may have time to write one or two extras for projects they just know the children will love doing with the extra time.(1) Should teachers be expected to TEACH, MARK, COUNSEL... and WRITE?
Again, just sharing arh.. :scared:
Expected? Perhaps yes.. cos when i first started teaching, we WERE expected to prepare our own. We were ranked by Grades that enables us to move up the ladder.. to move up salary scale via further studies and also pure hard work and creativity. But still, then... all the teachers shared. Mebbe kampong days got more spirit.Chenonceau:
Of course not. It's like asking a receptionist to do accounting work.(2) Should teachers test beyond what they teach?
Chenonceau:
To date, not all yet. Since some of my friends say they still gotta purchase English textbooks.(3) How many schools run Stellar?
Chenonceau:
Aaaahh.. this is where the issue lies. Because there's no proper evaluation and may i just quote doodbug on this... she mentioned uneven application... which i agree with and i suppose is a people problem. Given that DDs school has same materials across levels there will be teachers who may not execute them correctly or with the same measure of passion? During my teaching days, there will be officers from HQ who will just come without telling you when :nailbite: to see how your class was conducted.. whether it was as per the schedule set for the day (according to your lesson plan) and whether the materials given or prepared were used as per instruction. We'd be counseled and advised accordingly after lunch.(4) How many teachers run Stellar the way it should be run?
They come again scheduled so you can be more on the ball (that someone is checking :evil:) and a few more un-scheduled ones until the end of your career with the company. Supervisors included. So weighing scale isn't tipped.Chenonceau:
Sorry.. sorry.. :salute:It's no use talking about single trees (your tree and your friends' trees or the GEP special tree) when so many other trees in the forest are sick.
I was just responding to posts and not in any way wanting to cross your path intentionally.. cos i know you're upset with something.. someone.. in your DS school and yes in your words, the system in general... which you hope to be really world class when they dare print it so. :hugs:Chenonceau:
Actually, with regards to this.. both DDs schools have had change of principal but no change in school system. Better yes. Again maybe just a lucky streak but doesn't mean we'd be lucky all the time..If tomorrow, your school Principal were replaced, and a lousy Principal came in and thus, your kids had to go through a hard time, then what'll you do? Put your kids in the school your current Principal goes to?
Chenonceau:
Do you see this as the teachers themselves being incapable or handicapped in a way... because they cannot teach properly or because they dunno how to plan or write materials.. because no teachers in the school is sharing resources with anyone..? Are these traits evident in all the teachers in your DS' school or just the ones teaching DS' class?My DS has no Stellar. His English teacher makes spelling mistakes that HE does not make. His Chinese teacher asks the class to contribute tuition materials for sharing. His Math teacher says \"This kind of questions, we have not covered\" but that exact type of question was asked in the exam 2 weeks later.
Btw, his Maths teacher super.. dare to say liddat some more. :roll: I'd be freaking :mad: pissed too if i were you! :hugs:Chenonceau:
Yes i understand that.. and each time i tread into one of your determined posts, as i respond to posts from yours and others.. i honestly try to understand why and where you are coming from.. the roots of those trees.. but i guess i may be perceived only as saying the good stuff for the sake of it, but it's reali not like that. I believe that people can make the difference (as u can see from the experiences i've shared) and if you strongly believe better people in the overheads can make the difference, can make positive change, can make for a better system so that everyone benefits... i believe you. Then we need to either get the right people there, or get the right people to listen so they too believe. And how would they believe? By researching into these schools that have made learning so joyful for children and collating them.. putting them as a chop and endorsed MOE copyright material. Give due credit to the school.. the writers (the teachers) who care to write/share them in the materials/texts. I wasn't given credit for mine, what more royalties.. but not that i mind cos i know the children from then on benefitted from my generosity. Many have asked but i choose to see it positively. Consider that my contribution to the industry. No hard feelings.Your tree is not sick, but it could get sick unless there are systemic mechanisms to strengthen every school and every teacher NO MATTER where in the country.
Chenonceau:
Yup, agree. It can happen to us. But it didn't happen. Hopefully not now or in the future. I also don't wish it upon any other parents or children. But that's a matter of morals of one person and his integrity... again not the whole pool of teachers in his school to be blamed or inflicted in the saga together with him. He spoiled his own soup... his other cooks are not to be blamed, right?My DS' school had a great Principal 7 years ago. The compo materials that he was given in P3 and P4 are about as old. DS gets no Chinese compo materials AT ALL. The school doesn't WRITE them. Principals move around. If or when your school gets a lousy Principal who hires prostitutes and believes in teaching from the textbooks only etc... what would you do? Go and manage the Principal? What is happening to me and my DS... psle2011mum... beanbear... janet... can well happen to you.
Chenonceau:
AGREE on all three counts. :snuggles:It just takes one change of Principal. Unless there are other non-human strengtheners of the system.
(1) better textbooks
(2) better policies on teaching and testing
(3) e-sharing platform for teachers
And may i add... some form of evaluation or appraisal (system or committee) as well so everyone's accountable on what goes on in the \"teaching\". -
buds:
That we agree on this part is most important to me. For the rest, I do agree that individual teachers make a difference. DS' teacher in P3 and P4 was lovely. We've ALREADY bought her Teacher's Day present even though she doesn't teach him anymore. However, SHE is not promoted fast, if at all.
AGREE on all three counts. :snuggles:Chenonceau:
It just takes one change of Principal. Unless there are other non-human strengtheners of the system.
(1) better textbooks
(2) better policies on teaching and testing
(3) e-sharing platform for teachers
And may i add... some form of evaluation or appraisal (system or committee) as well so everyone's accountable on what goes on in the \"teaching\".
I do agree that some schools are doing a great job (and they mayn't even be branded schools at all).
Would your school agree to photocopy all its writings and distribute to teachers in my DS' school? If not (for whatever the reason) you have your answer on sharing lor... Principals can ensure that Teachers share. For sure, last year, DS' Chinese dept didn't share much... But who ensures schools share?
I tend to believe that the point of highest leverage is at the top. You and I can only fix 1 or 2 teachers problems... but until a systemic strengthener goes in, many many teachers will fall between the gaps. Only at the very top is there enough power to slide in a systemic strengthener.
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