Child Underperforms Because Tested Above Cognitive Level

[corneyAmber]

KSP:

Hi chen & ksi, why not create thread here with a list of the very best books for P1 to PSLE available in popular or any bookstores so that all parents can benefit from your rich knowledge and experience?

Problem is, KSP, we are not the exam setters. If they set the papers, they should recommend resources that align with the exams. We have been talking about children tested above cognitive level so it is not good to shoot in the dark again.

[violin_lover]

Chen and fellow friends, just want to share a link with you http://news.asiaone.com/News/Mailbox/Story/A1Story20120218-328745.html

[cnimed]

Was staying away from this thread but curiousity got the better of me, wow! The number of posts!


I don’t think we can say that children are ALL tested above their cognitive level. I think there is a spectrum, but few parents are willing to accept even the average.

I also agree with wonderm that though there are challenging questions, the concepts usually have already been covered. We are trying to move away from rote learning, that is a good thing right? And it is something we have been clamouring for right? But in moving away from rote learning and memorisation/regurgitation, the variations in teaching abilities become more apparent, and children’s abilities to apply concepts in different fields will differ.

It’s a bit of a catch-22 to expect this shift in education without further sifting of abilities on both teachers and students’ part. We can be more selective about teachers, but we have to accept all students and they come in all types and abilities. Are parents willing to accept that the days of scoring 90+ across all subjects are dwindling?

The way I see it, the textbooks are the baseline, the sky is the limit.

I do have my own wishlist for MOE. But more textbooks and model essays are not among them…at least not now. I may repent in a few more years! Never say never. grin

[Chenonceau]

deminc:

I don't think we can say that children are ALL tested above their cognitive level. I think there is a spectrum, but few parents are willing to accept even the average.

I think there are 2 ways of approaching the notion of \"testing above cognitive level\". First, there is the individual. Each individual comes with different capabilities... and a high ability child facing the same test will not find it above his/her cognitive level. Second, there is a stated syllabus for a given year of study. If tests cover material from later years of study, then even high ability children are tested above his/her cognitive level.

We are referring to the 2nd approach to \"testing above cognitive level\".

deminc:

but few parents are willing to accept even the average.

The parents you know must be a very special group because I frequently encounter parents, who accept \"average\" and are very happy already. My neighbour's niece scored 23x, and they celebrated. A good friend's daughter scored 24x and he was so proud of her. Another friend's son scored 21x and they celebrated too because the son had tried his best and demonstrated strength of character. One woman approached me for motivation advice and she PM-ed me her joy when her DD scored 23x. My own son scored 64% on one occasion (he told me was lowest in class back then) and I can't even remember it happened.

In the entire cohort of PSLE, only a few can get into the top schools. The majority of people accept and are happy with not getting into NYGH/RGS/RI/HCI. How come so few parents will accept average when fully 98% of the bell curve has to? Or if it is really really average, then 50% of the bell curve does?

deminc:

But in moving away from rote learning and memorisation/regurgitation, the variations in teaching abilities become more apparent

It is a problem when children's potential is capped by variations in teaching ability.

deminc:

in moving away from rote learning and memorisation/regurgitation...and children's abilities to apply concepts in different fields will differ.

Even in the days when the syllabus prized rote learning and memorisation, children's abilities differed... there was already a bell curve... but at least it depended on a child's ability... and not on...

(1) differential access to enrichment which provides the necessary skills practice opportunities

(2) privileged access to high quality educational resources (because textbooks are insufficient)

deminc:

I also agree with wonderm that though there are challenging questions, the concepts usually have already been covered.

If this is your real experience then I sincerely rejoice with you. But this is not the experience of myself and ...

psle2011mum: http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=708670#p708670

linden2000: http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=708776#p708776

fat mama: http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=714948#p714948

No doubt you and wonderm have had different experiences but there are many others whose children are tested beyond the syllabus for their level... before the concepts have been taught. These real and numerous experiences of parents who have
(1) analyzed the exams to understand failure,
(2) taught their children PERSONALLY (hence we know what the schools DON'T teach)
cannot be lightly brushed away with a sweeping \"I also agree with wonderm that though there are challenging questions, the concepts usually have already been covered.\"

No offence to you deminc. I can understand your experience is altogether positive at present and I will understand that you will continue to disagree with me... but I write this post as much to convince other readers (or to give them a voice)... and to let MOE know that this IS a problem and should not be swept away with one general statement (since there are a fair number of specific examples where children are tested on material not yet taught, and out of their level).

[Chenonceau]

I think I have worked very hard in this thread to raise the issue of concern. I have done everything I know how to draw attention to this thread and have people (hopefully MOE) read it. I have argued and presented and called MOE's top civil servants some inelegant names. :rotflmao:


It is good to know when to stop. I am happy with what I have done, and I think I have done my best.

So now, I stop. Cheerio...

[doodbug]

deminc:

Was staying away from this thread but curiousity got the better of me, wow! The number of posts!


I don't think we can say that children are ALL tested above their cognitive level. I think there is a spectrum, but few parents are willing to accept even the average.

I think what parents are referring to is that children are tested beyond the prescribed syllabus and the textbooks.

I also agree with wonderm that though there are challenging questions, the concepts usually have already been covered. We are trying to move away from rote learning, that is a good thing right? And it is something we have been clamouring for right? But in moving away from rote learning and memorisation/regurgitation, the variations in teaching abilities become more apparent, and children's abilities to apply concepts in different fields will differ.

I am fully supportive of moving away from content and memory work. The exams of the past tended to differentiate kids based on carelessness, silly and trivial stuff. My children are not in P6 yet and I cannot comment on whether subjects like Science has moved away from rote learning and memory work. I did recall that I memorized a TON for Science PSLE as that was how to get an A* back then (tons of food chains and stuff); I hope the memory content has been reduced, and has evolved to become more conceptual.

It's a bit of a catch-22 to expect this shift in education without further sifting of abilities on both teachers and students' part. We can be more selective about teachers, but we have to accept all students and they come in all types and abilities. Are parents willing to accept that the days of scoring 90+ across all subjects are dwindling?

The way I see it, the textbooks are the baseline, the sky is the limit.

The last statement really got me thinking. There is a huge and fundamental difference between the PSLE and O or A levels. At the O or A levels, one is graded. One attains a certain level of competency or performance, and one is graded an A. The sky is the limit in that you can score 100, but it is still an A. Whereas the PSLE is a different construct - every point of differentiation counts in the T-score. It becomes more of a relative and zero-sum game, at each subject level. The sky (or more accurately 100 marks) is really the limit. The chase becomes endless, and there is no end in sight. It's a different challenge, and Singaporean parents have responded to the PSLE with an approach of tuition, tuition and more tuition. Yikes, and I will be one of them soon

I do have my own wishlist for MOE. But more textbooks and model essays are not among them....at least not now. I may repent in a few more years! Never say never. *grin*

I think the more fundamental issue that some of us have is perhaps not the textbook per se, but the differential access to good resources across different schools. Also, I think KSP demographic profile is probably not representative of the general Singaporean demographic profile. We are parents who have the priviledged time and take the effort to surf the web for resources on how best to help our kids. As such, many of our kids will not face the issue of the lack of good resources. I may be wrong but a disproportionate number of KSP forummers have children in one of the better (say top 30) Primary Schools, where as there are actually close to 200 Primary Schools. Truly I think there are many parents and children out there who are lost in navigating resources, and helpless, thus the best recourse is tuition, tuition and more tuition.

[psle2011mum]

Chenonceau:

I think I have worked very hard in this thread to raise the issue of concern. I have done everything I know how to draw attention to this thread and have people (hopefully MOE) read it. I have argued and presented and called MOE's top civil servants some inelegant names. :rotflmao:


It is good to know when to stop. I am happy with what I have done, and I think I have done my best.

So now, I stop. Cheerio...

Chenonceau, thank you - thank you for taking the time to write, for taking the effort to put these points across in such elegant, readable and for me, thoroughly enjoyable posts. Thank you for your passion in giving a voice to those of us who stand in the gap for our children.

Will this achieve anything? I quote John Piper in reply :

You don't have to know a lot of things for your life to make a lasting difference in the world. But you do have to know the few great things that matter, and then be willing to live for them and die for them. The people that make a durable difference in the world are not the people who have mastered many things, but who have been mastered by a few great things. If you want your life to count, if you want the ripple effect of the pebbles you drop to become waves that reach the ends of the earth and roll on for centuries and into eternity, you don't have to have a high IQ or EQ; you don't have to have good looks or riches; you don't have to come from a fine family or a fine school. You have to know a few great, majestic, unchanging, obvious, simple, glorious things, and be set on fire by them.

[coast]

psle2011mum:

Chenonceau:

I think I have worked very hard in this thread to raise the issue of concern. I have done everything I know how to draw attention to this thread and have people (hopefully MOE) read it. I have argued and presented and called MOE's top civil servants some inelegant names. :rotflmao:


It is good to know when to stop. I am happy with what I have done, and I think I have done my best.

So now, I stop. Cheerio...

Chenonceau, thank you - thank you for taking the time to write, for taking the effort to put these points across in such elegant, readable and for me, thoroughly enjoyable posts. Thank you for your passion in giving a voice to those of us who stand in the gap for our children.

Will this achieve anything? I quote John Piper in reply :

You don't have to know a lot of things for your life to make a lasting difference in the world. But you do have to know the few great things that matter, and then be willing to live for them and die for them. The people that make a durable difference in the world are not the people who have mastered many things, but who have been mastered by a few great things. If you want your life to count, if you want the ripple effect of the pebbles you drop to become waves that reach the ends of the earth and roll on for centuries and into eternity, you don't have to have a high IQ or EQ; you don't have to have good looks or riches; you don't have to come from a fine family or a fine school. You have to know a few great, majestic, unchanging, obvious, simple, glorious things, and be set on fire by them.

Hi Chenonceau,

:thankyou:

:udawoman:

Hi psle2011mum,

Thanks for the inspiring quote

[Chenonceau]

http://i39.tinypic.com/saw1eq.jpg\">

Today's newspapers published an article about 2 PRC students who set up a website where contributors give free online lectures for JC students.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2sac6qx.jpg\">
They did it to help students too poor to pay for tuition and enrichment.


(1) Clearly, such online resource sharing is not at all difficult to set up. Why accept from MOE a mere booklist identified by individual Teachers as suggested by wonderm and ksi?

(2) These 2 PRC students share their knowledge for free with the whole world. MOE does not pay them. Why are our teachers so jealous of their resources? What's this about being unfair to teachers (something which worried Piggylalala) just because we ask them to share their worksheets, their models and their notes with other teachers across the nation's schools?

(3) Why believe that the best resources are those that are already published in Popular? In my personal experience, the most helpful resources are those that I have managed to get from friends in schools that DO write resources. NOT Popular assessment books. In my personal experience, the best resource for P5 and P6 Math for my son can only be bought online. Top school exams (written by Teachers) beat any Popular assessment book any day in being flexibly tailored to the requirements of the PSLE. I have spent hours poring over assessment books in Popular searching for resources. Of the plethora of resources in Popular, I have been able to find only 1 or at best 2 a year that I consider of a quality that is worth my son's foregone playtime.

The kind of resources that I use to power my son's crazy improvement from lousy to groovy CANNOT BE BOUGHT even with money. I have NO science assessments, NO English assessments, NO Chinese assessments.

Best resources are written by teachers for the students they teach (either in schools or in tuition centres) NOT by some money-making publisher who just wants to push out a book. Indeed, a friend of mine was tasked to write and she assures me that the publishers don't really know (nor check) whether what you write is absolute junk. It just has to look ok enough to fool the average parent.

At present, there already exists excellent resources within the school system, hidden inside schools. To marshall these resources, the following is possible...

(1) Run yearly competitions for highest quality resources
(2) Allow any Teacher to upload resources for sharing with teachers in other schools.
(3) Check the clickthrough rate for each Teacher's upload and reward the Teacher with a writing bonus (and maybe one day, our children will be able to access videos made by their teachers to teach them and help them revise)

It's not more difficult than setting up a KSP forum, and it'll
(1) offload Teachers
(2) allow Teachers to quickly and easily respond to individual student needs (just access the database and pull out stuff)
(3) allow Teachers to see how others write good resources
(4) provide Teachers with pride in their work (especially if the community appreciates their uploads)
(5) provide free access to high quality educational resources to every child in the nation without lining the pockets of low quality publishers out to make a quick buck from the unsuspecting parent

Setting up a sharing database is not difficult at all.

Since I am asking for a level playing field for all students rich or poor, I might as well ask for the full works... instead of beg for scraps by asking for
(1) just a book list
(2) hopefully some private sector publisher will write a good textbook to make money

I am a Singaporean. I pay taxes and have been loyal to this country for years and years. I see no reason to accept that our MOE (which consumes milions a year in salaries) can deliver less than 2 PRC students. Unfortunately, the 2 PRC students share for JC level. We need a similar resource for primary level.

[corneyAmber]

Chenon, I have to disagree here that there is a difference. System implementation is one of my forte and when implemented in an organisation, it has more components than you can imagine unlike what these 2 kids have done.


Nobody will criticise the 2 kids if anything goes wrong as they started as a volunteer service but everyone will charge at MOE if it is implemented wrongly because everyone EXPECTS MOE to know-how and to do it flawlessly. That said, it is something they still can do but it takes more planning and time. For the boys, if they fail, no harm done and the scale of their project is small compared to what MOE needs to venture into. even as a pilot run, they need to do a RFI first. So it is not a fair comparison.