All Schools are GOOD Schools

[metz]

phankao:

Chenonceau:

Schools That Test Reasonably

Some schools set papers according to what is taught in class. However, what is taught in class is NOT consistent with PSLE standards because the school can only manage to teach so much given available time/resources. Parents complain.

If all parents don't send to tuition, then it'll work. Bc PSLE is based on T-score.

By doing so, can we really make the playing field level for every child? I posed the possibility of scrapping enrichment centres/tuition centres/tuition to a friend. This friend has only 'N' level qualifications while the husband is a diploma holder. This is her reply (translated from Mandarin) -

It is easy for parents with diplomas or degrees, like yourself, to speak of scrapping the enrichment centres and their likes. You can always guide or teach/coach yourself. But for people like us, it is impossible. I can't even speak proper English. Without external help, a not-so-bright child like mine will always be lacking behind.

And for another friend (same situation as above), her two children are among the top 10% and 25% in their neighbourhood school respectively, yet she hopes her children will agree to go for enrichment classes. It's really tough for her because she could not answer or explain the questions her children raised.

Having good quality written resources will be a good news for all (I support this call too), but that doesn't mean it is an equal opportunity for all. There are kids who aren't ready for self-learning yet. Good written resources are still white elephants if parents don't possess the skills or time to help their children. I shared the resources I know freely with some, but the results on their children differ contrastingly. From my perspective, having good resources readily available will serve to benefit some but not all. Many children need more help than just good resources. We have to accept that. If resources alone is enough, then why do we still need teachers to teach? Children should then be staying home for study and attending school for social interaction.

If the child is doing well, parents shouldn't enrol them for enrichments as it further widens the gap. I beg to differ on this.
Below is an unfinished piece of writing my son (who loves to spin stories but balked at the thought of writing) wrote on his own last year as a P2. According to him, it was only the skeleton and he was supposed to add more meat to it. It is a great piece of writing, but, there is definitely still more room for improvement. If I possesed the skills of a writer, I would gladly coach or guide my kids and bring their writings to greater heights. But, a writer is not what I am. So, what is so wrong that I, as a parent, were to enrol them on an creative writing enrichment course to polish their skills further? As a form of self improvement? (Good results in school will be a welcomed by-product.) I am sure that there are many parents who share my sentiments and reasons for sending their children to enrichment centres.

Yes, more good written textbooks or notes is one area MOE or schools can look into to improve the overall standard. But can we show more understanding to those who choose to seek external help, even if we don't? There are those who sent their kids to enrichment classes to get an edge over others. But there are also others who do the same for different reasons. We all have our own reasons for the choices we made, to send or not to send.

PS: Btw, I am not avid supporter of academic enrichment classes as in my kids do not attend many enrichment classes. Berriesworld is the only one I sent them on a long term basis. No kumon, CMA, reading or writing classes, etc. I even requested the teacher of my daughter's Livecube class to refrain from giving her any school related worksheets.

Chapter 1 : I break into the Vault!

\"Are you sure you want to do it?\" my friend asked as he helped me attach the equipment to my belt. I answered with a slight nod.

Yeah. This is it. Welcome to the diary of Arawn Rider,
top on the wanted list.

Even though I was a master at code-breaking and very sleek, we were all nervous. The Vault had foiled many criminals. Some had been trapped before they even got in.

\"Well, I'll be leaving now.\" I said. \"If everything goes well, we'll meet at Sun City Plaza.\"

We didn't want to think what would transpire if nothing went well.

I slipped through the hatch. Unseen, I crept to the keypad and entered the password. The door opened and I breathed a sigh of relief. Unfortunately, here, even the tinniest movement could get one spotted. The camera swivelled round to look at me and I made a split-second decision, to cover the empty space where the door had been.

The camera turned away and an alarm blared. Was this it? After years of escaping from the police, I would finally be caught?


Chapter 2 : Who is it?

Guards ran, but not in my direction. I wondered if they were trying to trick me, but this was no time to hang about. There were two choices - to give myself up or lock myself in the Vault. You can imagine why I chose the latter.

Once inside, I ran forward , disarming the traps, and once across, reassembled them. Finally, I came to the end. There was nothing but a wall. I felt along the edge for invisible controls. Suddenly, one of the bricks gave way and I fell into the void of darkness.

[Chenonceau]

chamonix:

phankao:

[quote=\"Chenonceau\"]Schools That Test Reasonably

Some schools set papers according to what is taught in class. However, what is taught in class is NOT consistent with PSLE standards because the school can only manage to teach so much given available time/resources. Parents complain.

If all parents don't send to tuition, then it'll work. Bc PSLE is based on T-score.

By doing so, can we really make the playing field levelled for every child? I posed the possibility of scrapping enrichment centres/tuition centres/tuition to a friend. This friend has only 'N' level qualifications while the husband is a diploma holder. This is her reply (translated from Mandarin) -

It is easy for parents with diplomas or degrees, like yourself, to speak of scrapping the enrichment centres and their likes. You can always guide or teach/coach yourself. But for people like us, it is impossible. I can't even speak proper English. Without external help, a not-so-bright child like mine will always be lacking behind.

And for another friend (same situation as above), her two children are among the top 10% and 25% in their neighbourhood school respectively, yet she hopes her children will agree to go for enrichment classes. It's really tough for her because she could not answer or explain the questions her children raised.

Having good quality written resources will be a good news for all (I support this call too), but that doesn't mean it is equal opportunity for all. There are kids who aren't ready for self-learning yet. Good written resources are still white elephants if parents don't possess the skills or time to help their children. I shared the resources I know freely with some, but the results on their children differ contrastingly. From my perspective, having good resources readily available will serve to benefit some but not all. Many children need more help than just good resources. We have to accept that. If resources alone is enough, then why do we still need teachers to teach? Children should then be staying home for study and attending school for social interaction.

If the child is doing well, parents shouldn't enrol them for enrichments as it further widens the gap. I beg to differ on this.
Below is an unfinished piece of writing my son (who loves to spin stories but balked at the thought of writing) wrote on his own last year as a P2. According to him, it was only the skeleton and he was supposed to add more meat to it. It is a great piece of writing, but, there is definitely still more room for improvement. If I possesed the skills of a writer, I would have gladly coach or guide my kids and bring their writings to greater heights. But, a writer is not what I am. So, what is so wrong that I, as a parent, were to enrol them on an creative writing enrichment course to polish their skills further? As a form of self improvement? (Good results in school will be a welcoming by-product.) I am sure that there are many parents who share my sentiments and reasons for sending their children to enrichment centres.

Yes, more good written textbooks or notes is one area MOE or schools can look into to improve the overall standard. But can we show more understanding to those who choose to seek external help, even if we don't? We all have our own reasons for the choices we made.

PS: Btw, I am not avid supporter of academic enrichment classes as in my kids do not attend many enrichment classes. Berriesworld is the only one I sent them on a long term basis. No kumon, CMA, reading or writing classes, etc. I even requested the teacher of my daughter's livecube class to refrain from giving her any school related worksheets.

Chapter 1 : I break into the Vault!

\"Are you sure you want to do it?\" my friend asked as he helped me attach the equipment to my belt. I answered with a slight nod.

Yeah. This is it. Welcome to the diary of Arawn Rider,
top on the wanted list.

Even though I was a master at code-breaking and very sleek, we were all nervous. The Vault had foiled many criminals. Some had been trapped before they even got in.

\"Well, I'll be leaving now.\" I said. \"If everything goes well, we'll meet at Sun City Plaza.\"

We didn't want to think what would transpire if nothing went well.

I slipped through the hatch. Unseen, I crept to the keypad and entered the password. The door opened and I breathed a sigh of relief. Unfortunately, here, even the tinniest movement could get one spotted. The camera swivelled round to look at me and I made a split-second decision, to cover the empty space where the door had been.

The camera turned away and an alarm blared. Was this it? After years of escaping from the police, I would finally be caught?


Chapter 2 : Who is it?

Guards ran, but not in my direction. I wondered if they were trying to trick me, but this was no time to hang about. There were two choices - to give myself up or lock myself in the Vault. You can imagine why I chose the latter.

Once inside, I ran forward , disarming the traps, and once across, reassembled them. Finally, I came to the end. There was nothing but a wall. I felt along the edge for invisible controls. Suddenly, one of the bricks gave way and I fell into the void of darkness.[/quote]Excellent post! Oh excellent post!! I can't tell you how happy I am to read your thoughts!

I agree that resources are not enough. They are only part of the equation. Teachers must also have classes small enough... and time enough to give student-centric feedback.

I agree that kids LIKE to learn. I also enriched my DS in Science and English, not expecting that he would be tested. He's now reading and analyzing Edgar Allan Poe with an online high school... and once he is done with his PSLE load, he squirrels himself upstairs to do Edgar Allan Poe. He only deigns to come back downstairs for meals and to force me to hear boring things about a man who killed another for his eyeball. Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww! In the past, I would have done this because I know he enjoys it. Now I also do it in preparation for secondary school's Teach Less Learn More.

Plenty of activities in the past were done by kids outside the school curriculum - ballet, painting, violin, piano... and other parents could freely make decisions based on child's interests and desires. Nowadays, all these extras come under portfolio evaluation or help kids get into CCAs that will be useful for DSA.

This whole thing about differentiating children gives people no room to breathe. I like Monica Lim's analysis too - http://hedgehogcomms.blogspot.com/2012/03/death-by-tuition.html

I also agree that you can't ban tuition because some people NEED it. You can't ban enrichment because kids like my DS need it too because it keeps him excited about learning. Banning tuition is an obvious solution but not the best one - http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?p=728600#p728600

[Ichigokun]

What would you consider a "branded" school and what would you consider a neighborhood school?


It’s just mainly about perspective. Someone who is really into sports might say Singapore Sports Sch is "branded" while someone who really hates sports might say Singapore Sports Sch is just some neighborhood school.

Same goes for SOTA and the like.

[metz]

janet_lee88:

HI Chamonix,

Sorry I wasn't referring to you.
Some kids request to learn violin, ballet, swimming, tennis for eg. However, when kids have to stop learning an activity because of lack of time, it's really sad.

Regarding challenging papers, I would prefer exams to have tough questions to sieve out the A* from the rest. At least kids won't fail.
A* students can score high grades while the As and Bs can still pass exams. Heard PSLE Math getting tougher and tougher.

Hi Janet,

I never thought you were targeting me (you are too kind to be doing that ), just that you echoed the thought of some parents. I used to be one cynical parent in my ivory tower too. Why the need for GD or shichida? Why the need to teach toddlers or preschoolers to read thick books both in Chinese and English? Why the need to send them to enrichment classes at such young age? Why some parents paid for 'teachers' to engage their 10 month-old babies in learning Chinese? Aren't they depriving their young children of childhood?

As I interact with more parents and kids, it dawns upon me that every parent is fulfilling his/her expectations and perceived needs in different manners and that every child has different learning abilities and interests in various areas.


[quote]Some kids request to learn violin, ballet, swimming, tennis for eg. However, when kids have to stop learning an activity because of lack of time, it's really sad.[/quote]Oh dear, this is really a punch in the face for me. I had to withdraw my kids from their activities because of lack of time. No fault on their part but mine. I don't have the time nor patience for their music. Imagine one hour for each instrument for each child, that would be 4 hours (of my time) daily to sit there and watch them practise. Time would be very tight for me. (We have no helper.)

[janet88]

My son had to stop learning swimming bcos he had no time. Saturdays morning, he has CL tuition followed by Math (intensive this year bcos of PSLE). Sundays, he would have to finish the CL & Math tuition hw.

$50 for 4 lessons of swimming is reasonable, but time is too tight for this activity. Anyway, he prefers to take his beauty sleep instead.

Some branded schools do not/will not do that do anything extra for their students. Their mentality is, ‘is there a need? These kids would have tuition.’ Comparatively, it’s usually the not too popular schools who will take the extra step to coach the students. Branded schools always assume all students have tuition. Maybe, I guess. Branded school mah.

[metz]

Chenonceau:

Excellent post! Oh excellent post!! I can't tell you how happy I am to read your thoughts!

Frankly, I was expecting more of this :heresmyfish: , haha. It is really nice to able to voice our thoughts without worrying being :spank: . :thankyou: .

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree in some areas. (Hmm, it is funny for me to use the word 'enrich' but what the heck.) I tend to see things from a different perspective. 'Enriching' my children with resources is one way to share with them the many things I love or missed as a child. English, Maths and Science are not the only subjects I enriched them in. All these years, they read about Greek myths, history, poems and so forth. Currently, they are clamoring me to read them The Middle Ages everyday. I have never thought of that as preparing for the 'Teach Less Learn More' system in Sg. Getting them prepared for Sg system would be like tackling more science assessment books or test papers and learning the answering techniques and writing more compositions. Well, I'm guilty of leaving those work to pile up. Maybe I will panic and understand what you guys are going through when my kids reach upper primary.

As for activities, we do them purely for the balance of life. My son had basketball lessons with his father and swimming since he was five. Now, both he and his sister are having badminton and tennis lessons concurrently. DSA is certainly not what we are aiming for. Getting them to work out and stay healthy is our main objective. Perhaps, it is because I am away from Sg that I can keep myself sane? But my relatives (of the 11 grandkids, 9 are in primary schools) and close friends seem to share the same beliefs too. Aren't the extras still extras for most of us, unless the parents decide to participate in the DSA game?

Despite my respect for Monica's views in her previous posts, I am not too convinced by some of the arguments in her current post. But that is a horse of a different colour.

From my current pespective, the banning of tuition as a solution might serve to bring on another problem - coaching by parents (some, who by nature, are good in the subjects. Ahem, I am pretty mathematically inclined. Others might attend courses to learn the know-how.) vs those who can't (as in my friends' situation or cannot afford the time and energy).


PS: I'm full of envy! My son declared no more Edgar Allan Poe for him after The Tell-Tale Heart. Fortunately, my daughter is another horror freak like me. :please:

PS: Which online school is your son enrolled in? Can share?

[Chenonceau]

I am confused? You expected me to disagree with you …or other people to? I sincerely can’t disagree with much of your post.


You said a lotta things that I tried to say and have said before this? Like your DS, my DS was enriched for fun. I am not one for games and such… so Science experiments were bonding times. I didn’t think of Teach Less Learn More back then. Now though, after P5 and going through so many exams that test beyond, it is different. A part of me is hoping that the the online enrichment will help in school. Like you, I didn’t even call it enrichment. It was just play.

I’ve also maintained that banning tuition won’t help. And that distributing educational resources is only a partial solution though better than nothing at all.

However one models the issue, as long as you’re not saying that better textbooks and

(1) improved access of kids and teachers to educational resources is completely unnecessary,

(2) smaller classes are unnecessary

(3) parents alone are at fault for the excessive tuition phenomenon

… then I don’t really care that we disagree on other points and won’t bother to rebut. In fact, I kept myself out of the banning tuition debate for a long time even though I disagreed… For me, it was an unlikely idea… and unlikely to work but I didn’t wanna cloud the issue with tangents.

Besides, you aren’t the only one who got scolded by kids for the piano and all. DD complained that some people can draw and play piano plus do well in studies… and that I was wrong to stop her classes. Now she is teaching herself piano through the internet.

I had also pointed out before that if you ban tuition, it’ll result in more money for people who can teach parents to teach. In fact, this might explain why all of a sudden, I am getting so many people sign up for my parent-child motivation workshop! Authors who write about teaching to teach will also make money. If they ban tuition it might be a chance to line my pockets because I AM thinking of putting out a book.

You’ve not said anything that I have major and important disagreement with except that enrichment won’t help school marks… and that more assessment books and drllls do. I think that if we didn’t have so much fun for Science since DS was 2, we would also be panicking for Science because of the way exams have a way of including material not in any textbook and sometimes not in the guide books. This is testing beyond. But this has nothing to do with improving teacher and student access to educational material and giving teachers the time/resources to give our kids more student-centric attention… so it’s not a point I wanna focus on. Small difference.

I even agree on Edgar Allan Poe’s Telltale Heart. It freaks me out completely and I would much rather DS NOT tell me about it. He found an animated cartoon of this work and made me watch! I was so upset that I threatened to stop his online enrichment. DS was thrilled with the assignment to write a court prosecution of the murder. I commented that he was weird, and he said ‘Mom stop saying that. It’s mean.’

In truth, I really don’t disagree with you at all. I hope you weren’t expecting me to.

[metz]

I am confused too. The myriad of posts are to be blamed :razz: . But I am glad you clarified your stand and that we agree so much with each other. Of course, I have always supported the call for better resources, better teachers, smaller class size and as such. I would have remained as a silent reader if not for my friend who asked me to write on her behalf regarding the banning of tuitions.


Your daughter too? That is exactly what happened to another friend's 18 year old few years ago. She too told me not to give up lest my children blame me for not urging them on when they were young. Sometimes, I wonder what is considered best for the children's interests, to accede to their requests or not.

Your online advice has already helped me greatly with my son's writing, what more about your classes? By backing off and adopting your strategies to praise and bite all the criticisms, my son is now more receptable to comments on his writing. I can imagine the wonders your classes will do for parents and their kids! Some parents have already encroached into the realm of book publishing, so :ugogirl: . Uh, can have e-book version or not?

Animation on Tell-Tale Heart? Please thank your son on my behalf. Auntie is scooting off for some dose of animation now.

[Chenonceau]

chamonix:

I am confused too. The myriad of posts are to be blamed :razz: .

Oic... in that case I had better reproduce my previous post against banning tuition here just in case MOE does begin to consider banning tuition... :yikes: Seriously though... I can't see MOE doing it.

I am inclined to think that the most obvious solution may not necessarily be the most effective one. The obvious solution to a rat problem is of course to kill the rats. The real solution is to remove the food source. The obvious solution to the tuition problem is to ban tuition. The real solution is to remove the source of revenue - parents.

MOE has tried to remove the food source by trying to change mindsets via the national newspapers... telling parents that THEY are kiasu and to stop being so kiasu... in the hopes of getting parents to remove the source of tuition centres' revenue - themselves.

However, parents are responding to a different set of incentives (food source again). The tuition centres give material that helps their kids ace the exams set beyond what is taught. These A grades give parents a sense of fulfillment. You think the parent will go cold turkey just because you say they're kiasu? Of course not! A grades are too yummy. Try to tell someone who loves sharkfin to give up sharkfin for no other reason than that he is a jerk for participating in shark murder.

It ain't gonna work.

Instead, the \"jerk\" is gonna get really mad at you for calling him a \"jerk\". And this is exactly what happened when MOE said the tuition phenomenon is the fault of parental kiasu-ism.

We got mad.

Sure... the sharkfin gourmet is a jerk (oops... sorry for those who like sharkfin), and sure... parents ARE kiasu. But jerks don't like to be called jerks for eating what they love. Parents don't like to be called kiasu when they are doing it for those they love. After getting mad at MOE, parents are just gonna do whatever they want. You're not gonna get lasting behavioral change this way.

Two Ways to Pop the Tuition Bubble
The are TWO ways I suggest to remove tuition centres' food source are focused on satiating parents' hunger for (a) high quality written resources given by tuition centres (b) individualized feedback for their children.

(1) MOE should aggressively compete with tuition centres on quality and quantity of written resources and individualized feedback. TLL's classes are 15 at most. Marking is done so throughly that even good compos look like they're BLEEDING ink. They hand out excellent notes. Can MOE compete (we will look at this question later)?

(2) MOE should stop testing beyond what is taught so that you don't spike parents' hunger for resources and feedback by failing their kids for no other reason that that the exam was setting way beyond what was taught. This should not be hard to do.

For sure, some parents are more greedy than others. Some of us love food and will overeat anyway. Some of us need much more food than most. You'll never be able to satisfy these. But that's ok because many many many other parents DON'T overeat.

Can MOE Compete? How can MOE Compete?
(1) Leverage on the plethora of excellent resources already in schools but hiding.

(2) Really make smaller classes come true.

MOE functions on taxpayer funds. Upfront out of pocket expenses for parents are minimal. Their service offering is lower cost for parents and if comparable (or even slightly inferior) in quality, the tuition market will experience the effects of a substitute good (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitute_good).

Why Banning Tuition Won't Work
The solution I propose is less obvious but will be more effective because banning tuition will make it

(1) go underground (just like the alcohol ban lead to an increase of bootlegging in the USA of the 1920s... but was ineffective in curbing alcoholism)

(2) more expensive and then only people like jedamum will suffer because she REALLY needs tuition and she won't be able to afford it

(3) quite funny for Police Officers to go to work. They'll have to start treating tutors like prostitutes and children like prostitute clients

(4) the world laughed at us for banning chewing gum... If we ban tuition too, they'll die laughing.

(5) the tuition businesses will simply shift to teaching parents how to teach

(6) more Mommies will have to quit and stay home to make up for what MOE's teachers don't have time/resources to reinforce

(7) authors that teach people how to teach will also make money

In conclusion, the solution lies in upping the quality of MOE's essential service to the nation. If this can be properly done, the tuition problem will shrink. It won't ever go away because there ARE students who need it... but kids like mine... independent and willing to learn, won't.

limlim... so sorry bub... I still dun agree that banning tuition is the way to go... We can agree to disagree.

[limlim]

BeContented:

Champion:

Yes, Janet, I known this and have seen this happening So, some school has genuinely set paper that is of average standard but being \"bombarded\" by some parents,\" Why the paper is so easy? Such & such school in our neighbourhood paper is so much difficult and challenging!\"

Sometimes the schools are also in a dilemma.

Set average papers......get 'bombarded' by some parents on the paper being easy. Then start comparing with other schools and start sourcing for more difficult papers for their kids to try. Worse, start claiming school is not doing a good job to prepare the kids for PSLE, not realistic as kids will get high score and get complacent.

Set tough papers....the kids' grades will drop or worse, fail. Kids get demoralised, parents upset when kids are devastated.....wonder why schools want to 'kill'.

So seriously, damn if they do, damn if they dun.

They shd teach what they want to test. Even if 90% of the class already learnt it somewhere, they still have to teach.

They test based on the PSLE standard as set by the ministry.

The criteria shd be, if there is no tuition centers or enrichment centers, what would the progress and standard be? Definitely, it is is not unreasonable to assume that the students doesn't know the topic if the teacher have nvr taught them before.. right?

Hence, just go by this guideline and ignore those who complain about easy paper..