All Schools are GOOD Schools

[Ichigokun]

What would you consider a "branded" school and what would you consider a neighborhood school?


It’s just mainly about perspective. Someone who is really into sports might say Singapore Sports Sch is "branded" while someone who really hates sports might say Singapore Sports Sch is just some neighborhood school.

Same goes for SOTA and the like.

[metz]

janet_lee88:

HI Chamonix,

Sorry I wasn't referring to you.
Some kids request to learn violin, ballet, swimming, tennis for eg. However, when kids have to stop learning an activity because of lack of time, it's really sad.

Regarding challenging papers, I would prefer exams to have tough questions to sieve out the A* from the rest. At least kids won't fail.
A* students can score high grades while the As and Bs can still pass exams. Heard PSLE Math getting tougher and tougher.

Hi Janet,

I never thought you were targeting me (you are too kind to be doing that ), just that you echoed the thought of some parents. I used to be one cynical parent in my ivory tower too. Why the need for GD or shichida? Why the need to teach toddlers or preschoolers to read thick books both in Chinese and English? Why the need to send them to enrichment classes at such young age? Why some parents paid for 'teachers' to engage their 10 month-old babies in learning Chinese? Aren't they depriving their young children of childhood?

As I interact with more parents and kids, it dawns upon me that every parent is fulfilling his/her expectations and perceived needs in different manners and that every child has different learning abilities and interests in various areas.


[quote]Some kids request to learn violin, ballet, swimming, tennis for eg. However, when kids have to stop learning an activity because of lack of time, it's really sad.[/quote]Oh dear, this is really a punch in the face for me. I had to withdraw my kids from their activities because of lack of time. No fault on their part but mine. I don't have the time nor patience for their music. Imagine one hour for each instrument for each child, that would be 4 hours (of my time) daily to sit there and watch them practise. Time would be very tight for me. (We have no helper.)

[janet88]

My son had to stop learning swimming bcos he had no time. Saturdays morning, he has CL tuition followed by Math (intensive this year bcos of PSLE). Sundays, he would have to finish the CL & Math tuition hw.

$50 for 4 lessons of swimming is reasonable, but time is too tight for this activity. Anyway, he prefers to take his beauty sleep instead.

Some branded schools do not/will not do that do anything extra for their students. Their mentality is, ‘is there a need? These kids would have tuition.’ Comparatively, it’s usually the not too popular schools who will take the extra step to coach the students. Branded schools always assume all students have tuition. Maybe, I guess. Branded school mah.

[metz]

Chenonceau:

Excellent post! Oh excellent post!! I can't tell you how happy I am to read your thoughts!

Frankly, I was expecting more of this :heresmyfish: , haha. It is really nice to able to voice our thoughts without worrying being :spank: . :thankyou: .

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree in some areas. (Hmm, it is funny for me to use the word 'enrich' but what the heck.) I tend to see things from a different perspective. 'Enriching' my children with resources is one way to share with them the many things I love or missed as a child. English, Maths and Science are not the only subjects I enriched them in. All these years, they read about Greek myths, history, poems and so forth. Currently, they are clamoring me to read them The Middle Ages everyday. I have never thought of that as preparing for the 'Teach Less Learn More' system in Sg. Getting them prepared for Sg system would be like tackling more science assessment books or test papers and learning the answering techniques and writing more compositions. Well, I'm guilty of leaving those work to pile up. Maybe I will panic and understand what you guys are going through when my kids reach upper primary.

As for activities, we do them purely for the balance of life. My son had basketball lessons with his father and swimming since he was five. Now, both he and his sister are having badminton and tennis lessons concurrently. DSA is certainly not what we are aiming for. Getting them to work out and stay healthy is our main objective. Perhaps, it is because I am away from Sg that I can keep myself sane? But my relatives (of the 11 grandkids, 9 are in primary schools) and close friends seem to share the same beliefs too. Aren't the extras still extras for most of us, unless the parents decide to participate in the DSA game?

Despite my respect for Monica's views in her previous posts, I am not too convinced by some of the arguments in her current post. But that is a horse of a different colour.

From my current pespective, the banning of tuition as a solution might serve to bring on another problem - coaching by parents (some, who by nature, are good in the subjects. Ahem, I am pretty mathematically inclined. Others might attend courses to learn the know-how.) vs those who can't (as in my friends' situation or cannot afford the time and energy).


PS: I'm full of envy! My son declared no more Edgar Allan Poe for him after The Tell-Tale Heart. Fortunately, my daughter is another horror freak like me. :please:

PS: Which online school is your son enrolled in? Can share?

[Chenonceau]

I am confused? You expected me to disagree with you …or other people to? I sincerely can’t disagree with much of your post.


You said a lotta things that I tried to say and have said before this? Like your DS, my DS was enriched for fun. I am not one for games and such… so Science experiments were bonding times. I didn’t think of Teach Less Learn More back then. Now though, after P5 and going through so many exams that test beyond, it is different. A part of me is hoping that the the online enrichment will help in school. Like you, I didn’t even call it enrichment. It was just play.

I’ve also maintained that banning tuition won’t help. And that distributing educational resources is only a partial solution though better than nothing at all.

However one models the issue, as long as you’re not saying that better textbooks and

(1) improved access of kids and teachers to educational resources is completely unnecessary,

(2) smaller classes are unnecessary

(3) parents alone are at fault for the excessive tuition phenomenon

… then I don’t really care that we disagree on other points and won’t bother to rebut. In fact, I kept myself out of the banning tuition debate for a long time even though I disagreed… For me, it was an unlikely idea… and unlikely to work but I didn’t wanna cloud the issue with tangents.

Besides, you aren’t the only one who got scolded by kids for the piano and all. DD complained that some people can draw and play piano plus do well in studies… and that I was wrong to stop her classes. Now she is teaching herself piano through the internet.

I had also pointed out before that if you ban tuition, it’ll result in more money for people who can teach parents to teach. In fact, this might explain why all of a sudden, I am getting so many people sign up for my parent-child motivation workshop! Authors who write about teaching to teach will also make money. If they ban tuition it might be a chance to line my pockets because I AM thinking of putting out a book.

You’ve not said anything that I have major and important disagreement with except that enrichment won’t help school marks… and that more assessment books and drllls do. I think that if we didn’t have so much fun for Science since DS was 2, we would also be panicking for Science because of the way exams have a way of including material not in any textbook and sometimes not in the guide books. This is testing beyond. But this has nothing to do with improving teacher and student access to educational material and giving teachers the time/resources to give our kids more student-centric attention… so it’s not a point I wanna focus on. Small difference.

I even agree on Edgar Allan Poe’s Telltale Heart. It freaks me out completely and I would much rather DS NOT tell me about it. He found an animated cartoon of this work and made me watch! I was so upset that I threatened to stop his online enrichment. DS was thrilled with the assignment to write a court prosecution of the murder. I commented that he was weird, and he said ‘Mom stop saying that. It’s mean.’

In truth, I really don’t disagree with you at all. I hope you weren’t expecting me to.

[metz]

I am confused too. The myriad of posts are to be blamed :razz: . But I am glad you clarified your stand and that we agree so much with each other. Of course, I have always supported the call for better resources, better teachers, smaller class size and as such. I would have remained as a silent reader if not for my friend who asked me to write on her behalf regarding the banning of tuitions.


Your daughter too? That is exactly what happened to another friend's 18 year old few years ago. She too told me not to give up lest my children blame me for not urging them on when they were young. Sometimes, I wonder what is considered best for the children's interests, to accede to their requests or not.

Your online advice has already helped me greatly with my son's writing, what more about your classes? By backing off and adopting your strategies to praise and bite all the criticisms, my son is now more receptable to comments on his writing. I can imagine the wonders your classes will do for parents and their kids! Some parents have already encroached into the realm of book publishing, so :ugogirl: . Uh, can have e-book version or not?

Animation on Tell-Tale Heart? Please thank your son on my behalf. Auntie is scooting off for some dose of animation now.

[Chenonceau]

chamonix:

I am confused too. The myriad of posts are to be blamed :razz: .

Oic... in that case I had better reproduce my previous post against banning tuition here just in case MOE does begin to consider banning tuition... :yikes: Seriously though... I can't see MOE doing it.

I am inclined to think that the most obvious solution may not necessarily be the most effective one. The obvious solution to a rat problem is of course to kill the rats. The real solution is to remove the food source. The obvious solution to the tuition problem is to ban tuition. The real solution is to remove the source of revenue - parents.

MOE has tried to remove the food source by trying to change mindsets via the national newspapers... telling parents that THEY are kiasu and to stop being so kiasu... in the hopes of getting parents to remove the source of tuition centres' revenue - themselves.

However, parents are responding to a different set of incentives (food source again). The tuition centres give material that helps their kids ace the exams set beyond what is taught. These A grades give parents a sense of fulfillment. You think the parent will go cold turkey just because you say they're kiasu? Of course not! A grades are too yummy. Try to tell someone who loves sharkfin to give up sharkfin for no other reason than that he is a jerk for participating in shark murder.

It ain't gonna work.

Instead, the \"jerk\" is gonna get really mad at you for calling him a \"jerk\". And this is exactly what happened when MOE said the tuition phenomenon is the fault of parental kiasu-ism.

We got mad.

Sure... the sharkfin gourmet is a jerk (oops... sorry for those who like sharkfin), and sure... parents ARE kiasu. But jerks don't like to be called jerks for eating what they love. Parents don't like to be called kiasu when they are doing it for those they love. After getting mad at MOE, parents are just gonna do whatever they want. You're not gonna get lasting behavioral change this way.

Two Ways to Pop the Tuition Bubble
The are TWO ways I suggest to remove tuition centres' food source are focused on satiating parents' hunger for (a) high quality written resources given by tuition centres (b) individualized feedback for their children.

(1) MOE should aggressively compete with tuition centres on quality and quantity of written resources and individualized feedback. TLL's classes are 15 at most. Marking is done so throughly that even good compos look like they're BLEEDING ink. They hand out excellent notes. Can MOE compete (we will look at this question later)?

(2) MOE should stop testing beyond what is taught so that you don't spike parents' hunger for resources and feedback by failing their kids for no other reason that that the exam was setting way beyond what was taught. This should not be hard to do.

For sure, some parents are more greedy than others. Some of us love food and will overeat anyway. Some of us need much more food than most. You'll never be able to satisfy these. But that's ok because many many many other parents DON'T overeat.

Can MOE Compete? How can MOE Compete?
(1) Leverage on the plethora of excellent resources already in schools but hiding.

(2) Really make smaller classes come true.

MOE functions on taxpayer funds. Upfront out of pocket expenses for parents are minimal. Their service offering is lower cost for parents and if comparable (or even slightly inferior) in quality, the tuition market will experience the effects of a substitute good (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitute_good).

Why Banning Tuition Won't Work
The solution I propose is less obvious but will be more effective because banning tuition will make it

(1) go underground (just like the alcohol ban lead to an increase of bootlegging in the USA of the 1920s... but was ineffective in curbing alcoholism)

(2) more expensive and then only people like jedamum will suffer because she REALLY needs tuition and she won't be able to afford it

(3) quite funny for Police Officers to go to work. They'll have to start treating tutors like prostitutes and children like prostitute clients

(4) the world laughed at us for banning chewing gum... If we ban tuition too, they'll die laughing.

(5) the tuition businesses will simply shift to teaching parents how to teach

(6) more Mommies will have to quit and stay home to make up for what MOE's teachers don't have time/resources to reinforce

(7) authors that teach people how to teach will also make money

In conclusion, the solution lies in upping the quality of MOE's essential service to the nation. If this can be properly done, the tuition problem will shrink. It won't ever go away because there ARE students who need it... but kids like mine... independent and willing to learn, won't.

limlim... so sorry bub... I still dun agree that banning tuition is the way to go... We can agree to disagree.

[limlim]

BeContented:

Champion:

Yes, Janet, I known this and have seen this happening So, some school has genuinely set paper that is of average standard but being \"bombarded\" by some parents,\" Why the paper is so easy? Such & such school in our neighbourhood paper is so much difficult and challenging!\"

Sometimes the schools are also in a dilemma.

Set average papers......get 'bombarded' by some parents on the paper being easy. Then start comparing with other schools and start sourcing for more difficult papers for their kids to try. Worse, start claiming school is not doing a good job to prepare the kids for PSLE, not realistic as kids will get high score and get complacent.

Set tough papers....the kids' grades will drop or worse, fail. Kids get demoralised, parents upset when kids are devastated.....wonder why schools want to 'kill'.

So seriously, damn if they do, damn if they dun.

They shd teach what they want to test. Even if 90% of the class already learnt it somewhere, they still have to teach.

They test based on the PSLE standard as set by the ministry.

The criteria shd be, if there is no tuition centers or enrichment centers, what would the progress and standard be? Definitely, it is is not unreasonable to assume that the students doesn't know the topic if the teacher have nvr taught them before.. right?

Hence, just go by this guideline and ignore those who complain about easy paper..

[limlim]

janet_lee88:

Regarding challenging papers, I would prefer exams to have tough questions to sieve out the A* from the rest. At least kids won't fail.
A* students can score high grades while the As and Bs can still pass exams. Heard PSLE Math getting tougher and tougher.

In principle, I agree with this that the paper can be tough to filter out the better students..

However, some kiasu parent spoil the market and send their kids to tuition centers to gain the extra advantage and the playing field is not level.

refer to this

http://theonlinecitizen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Meritocracy-1024x735.jpg

Hence, I am ok with difficult papers but against a playing field that is not level.

How to level the playing field?

Let me quote a scenario..

There is Singapore pools and there is illegal bookies.

If there is legalized betting, why is some bets illegal? It is telling pple that, Look, I give you Singapore Pools. You want to bet, you come to me. It is fair, everyone with the same bet gets the same payout. When illegal bookies operate, some may offer better payout then others, or better payout than Singapore Pools. It is not fair. It may take business from Singapore Pools.. it may get out of control..

Yes, by making private betting illegal, we cannot eradicate illegal betting.. BUT we keep it UNDER CONTROL.

Okie.. bad example.. gambling is a vice.. but you get the idea.... :evil: :evil:

I give you MOE, you want to study, come to me. It is fair, I control the standard and resources, and try the best to give everyone equal opportunity.

Secondary \"establishment\" of \"supplementary\" education in direct competition with MOE is illegal. It is not fair, it undermines the effort of MOE, it may get out of control.

Enrichment outside of curriculum is fine.. it is your choice and freedom to pursue.. But those centers who teaches matter in the curriculum whose only purpose is to gain an unfair advantage in the PSLE or 'O' level is not allowed.

Those who get it in the black market, let it be.. Loopholes.. we try to plug it. or we may close 1 eye. I just want the mainstream masses to be under control and sending out a very strong message. Parents, don't worry about unfair advantages and have faith in the system. I will keep it UNDER CONTROL.. If you want other alternative, you may approach the international schools. You have a choice. I do not allow tuition centers that teaches MOE curriculum, to operate.

private tuition is excluded. bcoz there may be genuine needs for it.

How to achieve control? Make all education establishment including tuition centers and enrichment center require a license. Those that doesn't meet the requirement or against the principle of the system, license not granted. Simple.

Another example.. Smoking in aircon places is banned. How to enforce? I'm not sure.. but it is banned.. it discourage smoking in those areas.. that, is the objective.

Why set a law that you may not be able to enforce effectively? IMHO, I just want to send a strong message. And that, is good enough.

[janet88]

Hi limlim,

I agree with what you mentioned :rahrah:
Teach what will be tested. Test what has been taught in school.
If schools can do that, parents will not panic as much and bring in tutors. Problems now are:
1)schools do not teach sufficient to pass their own exams,
2)assume all kids attend enrichment.

When kids are well taught in schools, I believe there will be a far lesser need for tutors. What are our kids learning in school everyday ? MOE should look into welfare of teachers. Take away non-core stuff like CCA for eg. When teachers are not tired out with all these stuff, they will be happier. When teachers are doing what they are employed to do, more will want to teach :xedfingers: