Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)

[Nebbermind]

Edureach:

Every pupil in school takes the same exam so i think is really fair. The entire cohort eventually sit for the same paper so that's also fair. At the end of the day, capable pupils will still do well.


We can talk and talk in the end the percentage of pupils scoring A* remains constant.

I think u missed the point.
The issue here is that the qns are far too advanced and many of the kids required alot of external help in order to get these A*.

[Edureach]

Nebbermind:

Edureach:

Every pupil in school takes the same exam so i think is really fair. The entire cohort eventually sit for the same paper so that's also fair. At the end of the day, capable pupils will still do well.


We can talk and talk in the end the percentage of pupils scoring A* remains constant.

I think u missed the point.
The issue here is that the qns are far too advanced and many of the kids required alot of external help in order to get these A*.

External help? That's means they are of A standard and not A*. If so easy to score an A* by temselves, that's means many can be admitted to famous schools. Anw, our stand are different and no need for us to debate.

[jesschan]

Chenonceau:

Ah yes... schools which don't do this... will send fewer students to top secondary schools where opportunities for Overseas CIP, university level mentorships etc... are MORE available than in your neighbourhood secondary school. 40% of NYPS makes it past the 25X t-score because it tests beyond AND it also teaches beyond.

At the end of the road, it isn't even schools that over test. It is the PSLE itself and the fact that learning opportunities and resources are disproportionately allocated across schools.

Oh, so my children's school belongs to the minority group. There were indeed not many in the school who were able to score above 250 in PSLE. Their school has more programs for children who need help and higher ability students are left to explore on their own. The school has its share of good and not-so-good teachers, like all other schools. My children are doing reasonably well in school now and not so stressed up like many of the kids here. So, I shall keep my fingers crossed and hope that they can do well enough in PSLE to get into the better secondary schools. I do agree that there are more opportunities for the students in the better secondary/IP schools.

[Chenonceau]

jesschan:

Chenonceau:

Ah yes... schools which don't do this... will send fewer students to top secondary schools where opportunities for Overseas CIP, university level mentorships etc... are MORE available than in your neighbourhood secondary school. 40% of NYPS makes it past the 25X t-score because it tests beyond AND it also teaches beyond.

At the end of the road, it isn't even schools that over test. It is the PSLE itself and the fact that learning opportunities and resources are disproportionately allocated across schools.

Oh, so my children's school belongs to the minority group. There were indeed not many in the school who were able to score above 250 in PSLE. Their school has more programs for children who need help and higher ability students are left to explore on their own. The school has its share of good and not-so-good teachers, like all other schools. My children are doing reasonably well in school now and not so stressed up like many of the kids here. So, I shall keep my fingers crossed and hope that they can do well enough in PSLE to get into the better secondary schools. I do agree that there are more opportunities for the students in the better secondary/IP schools.

All the best!

[TheBluePapa]

atutor2001:

blessed777:

.....
Dont be confused, model drawing is only 1 of Heuristics approach. N if im not wrong MOErecommended 11 problem solving Heuristic for primary school level. As for my dd school p6 sa1 there are 7 problem solving Heuristic to be tested including MD....
....Onsponge bk shows solution for complex more/less than (using model drawing) but i find it easier to teach dd using tabulation..... \"

Yes model is only 1 of the many heuristic approach. However, it is ironical to draw model because if someone can understand the logic/approach, he/she can solve without the models. Why spend time drawing the model? If one does not have the slightest idea of how to solve, drawing the models the wrong way will not help either. There are many ways to draw models but weak students usually only know how to draw simple comparison model of A & B. They can stare at them for the entire duration of the exam and nothing will surface.

The impression given by many teachers and tutors is that drawing model will show us the way to the solution for most problem. To make matter worse, many teachers go to the extent of threatening their students that marks will be deducted if they don't use model. (because they only know how to determine if working is correct or wrong as answer keys used model).

To further complicate matter, many innovative individuals would do their best to apply/promote \"model method\" to all kinds of problem sum, including those that can be easier solved with other methods. A typical example is to represent the value of money in 4 units of $10 notes, with a rectangle divided into 4 rows and 10 columns.

Model concept has been abused. I have experimented with kids who failed miserably using model. Just teach them simple algebraic manipulation and simultaneous equations, they can solve most, if not all, the conventional problem sums by P6.

yes, I must agree with you. Just take a look at the Maths problems in the Primary Maths threads where parents post their problems and are presented with modelling solutions. That didn't really solve their problems because they didn't learn how to fish. Few do by just looking at the solutions. Just look at how many parents came back again with similar problems. If they had learnt how to solve those problems, they wouldn't be back with the exact same problem types. This is so sad.....which means their children didn't learn anything as well.

They had the fish caught for them and now they can only hope the exact same fish comes along in the exam, so that they can catch it. If the fish changes it's color, or it's size, they would not know how to catch it again. The same people are asking similar questions, again and again and again. It has become a vicious cycle.

The parents fail to understand that the presented solution is just a presentation, neatly packaged into nicely aligned boxes, the actual analysis of the problem was never explained. Why did they choose the particular heuristic as opposed to some other heuristic is never explained, it just is. The more astute students might form their own conclusions on a defining logic that links to that particular problem type. Most will just accept without questioning and move on. Such is life in the Maths underworld.

[Pen88n]

Nebbermind:

atutor2001:

Yes model is only 1 of the many heuristic approach. However, it is ironical to draw model because if someone can understand the logic/approach, he/she can solve without the models. Why spend time drawing the model? If one does not have the slightest idea of how to solve, drawing the models the wrong way will not help either. There are many ways to draw models but weak students usually only know how to draw simple comparison model of A & B. They can stare at them for the entire duration of the exam and nothing will surface.


The impression given by many teachers and tutors is that drawing model will show us the way to the solution for most problem. To make matter worse, many teachers go to the extent of threatening their students that marks will be deducted if they don't use model. (because they only know how to determine if working is correct or wrong as answer keys used model).

To further complicate matter, many innovative individuals would do their best to apply/promote \"model method\" to all kinds of problem sum, including those that can be easier solved with other methods. A typical example is to represent the value of money in 4 units of $10 notes, with a rectangle divided into 4 rows and 10 columns.

Model concept has been abused. I have experimented with kids who failed miserably using model. Just teach them simple algebraic manipulation and simultaneous equations, they can solve most, if not all, the conventional problem sums by P6.

I think the main problem is that the kids don't try to analyzing the questions and try to solve it. Instead, they try to find a suitable heuristic to fit the qns. Like someone mentioned, the difficult qns can involve a couple or more heuristic...and the kids goes into mental block state. Math is not something u can solve with some standard prescribed steps.

I don't think it is a \"one method fits all questions\" type of teaching for Maths. Most schs / tuition centres teach by \"drilling\" - you practise more, recognise the question style and apply the methology to the same type of questions. I know of kids who have been drilled to do this, and score well in Maths when the questions are what they are exposed to. These kids will fail miserably in years when MOE came out with unconventional PSLE questions (which luckily did not happen in the last 2 years). I know, those kids who are very strong in Maths are all crying \"unlucky\" for the last 2 years. One man's meat is another man's poison - can't please all!

[blessed777]

cherryc:

Finally I got a better understanding of the model method . I was groping in the dark for the last few years . Different schools have different approaches and even in a given school , the better classes are taught more than the weaker classes. My DS took

PSLE, I realise that many methods taught by the assessment books are not taught in school, neither were they documented in the textbooks. When I finally sent him to tuition, it was too late as he was bombarded with even more model methods. We were so frustrated then.

By the way, which book would you recommend to study comprehensively all the model methods?? Where can I find the 11 methods which I don't even know after so many years.

I dont know whether there is any book where you can find all the methods. All I hv just 2 heuristic math assesment bks n onsponge, which I hardly use due to time constraint. dd only done few pages of one bk n the other 2 left untouched. dd bring home tons of daily hw, so I use her hw to help her instead of assesment books & I only emphasize methods she learn at school. You dont have to master all methods to solve a problem, but mastering more methods will help to hv flexibility in problem solving. School text bk use drawing model method, but teacher also compliment some heuristics. She brings home good variety of math hw, not necessarily all challenging all the time. I would pick and teach questions which she is weak or which can help her to understand better. Sorry if I can't recommend u any book, some parents here recommend OnSponge. Make sure yr kids understand the concept well so they will be able to use any method they learn.

[Chenonceau]

TheBluePapa:

The parents fail to understand that the presented solution is just a presentation, neatly packaged into nicely aligned boxes, the actual analysis of the problem was never explained. Why did they choose the particular heuristic as opposed to some other heuristic is never explained, it just is. The more astute students might form their own conclusions on a defining logic that links to that particular problem type. Most will just accept without questioning and move on. Such is life in the Maths underworld.

At the very least, such free resources help these astute students... which is better than having no one to ask... I guess. Have you in mind other ways to help such students who may have nowhere else to ask their questions when schools test what they don't think they need to teach?

[Mychildren]

Frankly speaking, I won’t recommend onsponge unless the child already had a very strong and good foundation. If not, it will create confusion. The basic concept must be there before inputting more.


To me, Andrew Er’s books are good enough.

[TheBluePapa]

Mychildren:

Frankly speaking, I won't recommend onsponge unless the child already had a very strong and good foundation. If not, it will create confusion. The basic concept must be there before inputting more.


To me, Andrew Er's books are good enough.

heh, heh, everyone have their own pet books.