Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)

[Nebbermind]

One of the cat that tutormum missed is that some kids just needed the extra time…they are not lacking in intelligence but just slower in digesting some groups of information. I had classmates who could not adapt to the pure science curriculum initially. These people may not be the very top of the cohort but still what I wld consider HA in many areas. Eventually they still got their As without tuition coz life was not so crowded with activities those days. But these days, we seem to be rushing the kids…we want them to do alot more things, both academic or non academic than we did last time in the same amt of time.

[oxyleo]

Hi there. Thanks for the lovely welcome. Indeed, I fully empathize with your feelings. Many, many parents, and zealous grandparents asked me what classes my kid was attending in kindergarten, and honestly, most of them looked very surprised when I said he only attended Kindermusik (the hop around, sing, dance, play a variety of instruments sort) and swimming ( starting 6 yrs). Most of them were in Kumon, berries, mind champs, shichida and so on, and one or two I know in K2 was doing Grade 3 piano and violin. My friend and I joked that they must have either thought I was lying, or simply out of touch with the real world, out of their league. My son is in a non-branded school (not to mention I had weird looks for that as well, because most were eyeing the top ones), and thankfully he had wonderful teachers that helped him adapt in P1, despite him probably being one of the few in his cohort who, not having attended tuition before, didn’t quite realize what was coming for him. Honestly, neither did I. Well-meaning friends and teachers have cautioned me that I need to be prepared for the curves each year or every 1/2 yearly, because the curves aren’t gradual. They are pretty steep. At themoment, I am still hanging on to my believe that my child should not have tuition unless he needs it, as I’m not prepared to trade his soul and mine if the sacrifice of his time means taking the child out of him. I’m not too eager to transform him into a warrior for the future workplace just yet, because I believe there is a right time for everything. I WAS confident I was right, but now, I must say it takes even more courage than before to continue believing I am right especially when everyone else seems headed the other way. And the system is rewarding the early starters no doubt.

[Chenonceau]

coast:

I agree with most of your post (and many many more in your many other posts). But I do not understand Low ability students can do very well indeed given enough tuition by pushy parents from a young age.

I know many parents (even teachers) might not agree with this. I am a firm believer that majority of the kids are intellect equals, plus or minus an insignificant band. Some may be faster or slower in certain areas/ subjects, but in general, given the right environment and nurture, they can excel.

I agree.
http://petunialee.blogspot.com/2012/01/10000-hour-rule-of-practice.html

coast:

I do not agree with streaming at such a young age (after P2). I know the \"pros\" of streaming as advocated by MOE and many parents. But I wonder if they know the price of the \"cons\" to label the majority of the kids (Vs the top 2 classes) as non HA.

I agree.

coast:

I like kids since I was a teenager. I observe them closely when I spend time with them. Many of them are bright. Their academic results vary. It's not because they are \"low ability\". They need motivation. They need the right support and guidance. Most of them can do well in academics ... if we have the right system. But we have \"quotas\" for IP, Express, NA, NT, ... so there will be sacrifices along the way ... and these children will also believe they are \"low ability\" as classified by the system.

I agree.

coast:

Is that what you meant by \"Low ability students can do very well indeed given enough tuition by pushy parents from a young age.\"? when they are actually not \"low ability\" to begin with?

Maybe it is my fault to have used the words \"low ability\". The truly low ability with subnormal IQ are unlikely to be mis-classified a high ability. What I should have written is that average ability kids can be misclassified as high ability if they have pushy parents.

And high ability kids (without tuition) can misclassified as average... and then, BECAUSE we DIFFERENTIATE EARLY and we make STARK DIFFERENCES in quality of education between HA and Average, we waste true talent because some truly high ability kids are NOT getting the kind of challenge they can cope with... whilst other average but over-tuitioned kids do.

I did not advocate streaming. I merely pointed out that in the current streaming system, there are TOO MANY errors in classification. In essence, I imply that streaming so early is NOT good. So I agree with you.

I used the term \"low ability\" to reflect the vocabulary used by one's dialogue partner is one of the rules of good communication. Clearly, I mis-applied a rule here. It is my fault.

coast:

I feel sad to read (and media praising) top PSLE scholars attending numerous tuition/ enrichment, putting in 6 - 7 hours daily after school of hard work, doing 50 (or 100) assessment books. I never thought of them as low or high ability, I just feel sad but hope that their life changes after PSLE. More activities beyond classes and home studying. Otherwise, even if they \"suceed\" in life, they are pretty out of touch with the real world except their own social circle. Maybe that is why we have certain officials who could never understand the people's concern ... that it needs a GE before voices are being heard and understood.

I agree.

coast:

I respect and support your valuable contributions in this forum! I am your fan!!! Just want to clarify that statement. But we certainly can disagree on certain things and still like and support each other :snuggles:

I hope I have clarified?

[Chenonceau]

oxyleo:

Hi there. Thanks for the lovely welcome. Indeed, I fully empathize with your feelings. Many, many parents, and zealous grandparents asked me what classes my kid was attending in kindergarten, and honestly, most of them looked very surprised when I said he only attended Kindermusik (the hop around, sing, dance, play a variety of instruments sort) and swimming ( starting 6 yrs). Most of them were in Kumon, berries, mind champs, shichida and so on, and one or two I know in K2 was doing Grade 3 piano and violin. My friend and I joked that they must have either thought I was lying, or simply out of touch with the real world, out of their league. My son is in a non-branded school (not to mention I had weird looks for that as well, because most were eyeing the top ones), and thankfully he had wonderful teachers that helped him adapt in P1, despite him probably being one of the few in his cohort who, not having attended tuition before, didn't quite realize what was coming for him. Honestly, neither did I. Well-meaning friends and teachers have cautioned me that I need to be prepared for the curves each year or every 1/2 yearly, because the curves aren't gradual. They are pretty steep. At themoment, I am still hanging on to my believe that my child should not have tuition unless he needs it, as I'm not prepared to trade his soul and mine if the sacrifice of his time means taking the child out of him. I'm not too eager to transform him into a warrior for the future workplace just yet, because I believe there is a right time for everything. I WAS confident I was right, but now, I must say it takes even more courage than before to continue believing I am right especially when everyone else seems headed the other way. And the system is rewarding the early starters no doubt.

I know at least 2 branded schools that test HARD but teach easy. The schools perform by scaring parents and kids into paying for tuition. It is the tuition that helps the school perform. There are neighbourhood schools that teach MUCH better.

I encourage you to hang on to your belief that tuition is unnecessary. There are ways to help a child learn on his own. I got around it by filling up the gaps in the school's teaching with high quality written resources. My son read them, explained to me... and is doing well without tuition, and still had time to run a business selling caterpillars to his friends... and almost burn down the house trying to MAKE his own Tesla Coil.

[Lynmummy]

Hi all,


This my first post regarding education in this forum though I have been discussing or debating this issue with friends and DH. DD1 is in P6 and DD2 in P2. Motivated to write cos I am saddened by the fact that 2 days of public holiday in May = 2 more days of revision for DD1.

When we began our Primary school journey, both DH and I believe in giving a childhood to our kid, no academic enrichment. DD1's results was above average but when P5 came along, her results was average. We observed that those above average kids who were having tuition since day 1 could maintain their above average results. Time and time again I asked myself, what if I have taken the same route, what would be the outcome for DD1?

There is no best answer. Like Chen, I bought DD1 better resources for her to study independently and she is enjoying this process cos she knows it is her own effort if she does well. However, end of P5 when she got B for Science she told me that she needed help so we outsourced to tuition. I admit defeat...

As parents, we have to find the fine balance and it is never easy. With love, support, care for them as a whole being, not just academic results, will boost their self-esteem. I do believe the results will show but not immediately. Unfortunately, the pace here is simply too fast for some, very sad.

I agree that not all the schools are the same. If our kiddos with average ability have teachers that really teach and with their own hard-work, they can really do without tuition. Not everyone is so lucky to get those elusive good teachers for all subjects. DD1 is lucky so far so only science need help.

Came across a list of \"Model Chinese Teachers\" published recently in Chinese newspaper. 3 chinese teachers from NYPS n NYG made it to the list, you tell me whether all schools are the same and resources are distributed equally. Kuddos to those schools that really made an effort to train the teachers to reach that level of mastery in teaching. Both the schools' teachers and students deserved the recognition.
http://i46.tinypic.com/2wpnhxj.jpg\">

In the largest scheme of things, children here may ultimately get the degree one way or another. How they differentiate themselves in the future is the journey they have taken and what they have learnt from it. Having, EQ, resilience and creativity is the way to go.

Education is not a 100m dash, it is a marathon.

Cheers
Lynmummy

[mummy of 2]

Lynmummy:

Education is not a 100m dash, it is a marathon.

This is exactly how I feel! I have also chosen a school that is considered less academically driven when I could easily register in another one which is considered to produce better results, simply because it is nearer. I wanted DS to have more free time rather than spend it on a school bus. Little did I know then that I saved him 50 minutes per trip. So far I have no regrets as DS is enjoying school and very motivated to learn. Maybe it's still early days as he's only in p1 but I hope I will never regret the decision.

I have also tried to keep his enrichments to a minimum. At the moment he has maths and swimming. I have been trying to ask him to drop maths since last year so that he can learn weiqi instead. He refuses. In any case his math lessons are engaging and no homework to be done after lesson. So I just let him be.

Frankly with only 2 enrichment classes I already find it tiring. I can't imagine fitting in more. That will burn the whole weekend! How to squeeze in time for family bonding if all the kid does is attend enrichment after enrichment? I pity the children and parents who find it a necessity to fill up with the kids' free time with enrichment/ tuition. I sincerely hope I will never find myself in that situation.

[Edureach]

oxyleo:

Dear Edureach,

I do believe that our education system is spiraling out of control. You may say that parents place an over emphasis on PSLE, but I think it is so because PSLE results, now more than ever before, ever since the IP was introduced, gives some the privilege to skip the 'O' Level exams. It's pretty much like offering a license to drive without needing to prove that you can drive, because your earlier tests show that you should not have a problem doing so. MOE itself describes on its website that IP students are clearly university bound, whilst those who do not make the cut to IP, well, still have to prove they are university bound, by clearing another hurdle of exams, the 'O's. It is therefore not surprising that parents now place an increased emphasis on the PSLE, because of the huge differentiation in experience in IP vs the secondary route. I don't think people generally have an issue with the IP per se, because there is nothing wrong with catering to the brightest people in our society. Why wouldn't we want to nurture them? The problem is these people that we have qualified as bright throughout PSLE scores are in all likelihood having access to one of the following:
(1) studying in a branded school, well-known for pushing hard and churning huge quantities of top PSLE scorers
(2) good quality outside tuition and/or
(3) smart parents who are resourceful enough to gather the information required to coach the kids to attain a good PSLE score.
It is evident those who don't have access to any of the 3, have the odds stacked highly against them. True, you may find 1, or 2, or even 10 who don't have any of the 3 and still make it. But to put things in perspective, that probability is very, very slim.
If anything, this is also the reason why parents end up clamoring after branded schools, because kids are pushed and exposed from the get-go, which is like a first-mover advantage, vs one who reacts only when the tide comes. GIven the huge gap to be filled, time may not be on their side.
I have a kid in P2, who never had a day of tuition, or academic enrichment, and I am truly beginning to understand why so many others his age were 'enriching' themselves in every possible way since they were 3 or 4.
MOE's predictable stance throughout all this feedback only serves to send more to tuition and enrichment centers, maybe starting now at age 2? And even more parents queuing up for branded schools.

Thank you for your feedback.

You have outlined the three points why pupils managed to score well in psle and personally do not disagreed to these reasons.

On this occassion, my postings are for the general readers here many of them are unable to secure a branded primary school of their choice. I aso hve linked the primary school's system with sec school and all the way to jc as our educational system in these three levels are all interlinked. On this occassion, i must also emphasis that there's no evidence to-date that students with the same psle score that received an IP education peform better than those from O-level route. Whether a high psle scorer is better suited for IP or O-level route is a judgemental call. I have two kids both qualified for the IP route but only one had chosen it.

At this juncture, i must emphasis that i fear that too many parents are sending their young kids for tuition at such an early stage of their academic life. My concerns are cost and the lack of self learning on the part of their kids which will prove detrimental in cultivating the spirit of self-relience in later stage of their academic pursuit. Let me give u an example of the tuition cost in a normal centre: 4 subjects at psle-$500 per kid. 4 subjects at O-level-$800 per kid. 4 subjects at A-level-$1000 per kid. This refers to grp tuition not 1-1.

On the basis of the above, the middle class family with two kids will need to be relatively frugal in their spendings not to mention the dread prospect of losing one's job at middle age. Now coming to psle, the key is to emphasis consistent hard work without stress. There's no need to be in a branded pri sch to taste success a decent sch with 80% of its cohort able to enrol directly at express level is sufficient. The rest is dependable on the kid's innate ability, home support from parents hard work and preserverance. As long as you as parent pays close attention to every CA1,SA1,CA2 and SA2 exams, yr kids will be motivated to excel. As parents, you can go to Popular to source for good materials to guide your kids. At lower pri level, there's no need to go for any tuition if your kids managed to score band 1. At P5, as long as your kid maintains at least band 2 standard, again no need to send for tuition. At psle, you may consider to send yr kids for tuition for subjects that are not at band 1. That way, you save money which can be utilised for sec and jc level later.

As long as u as a parent does your due deligence, you need not fear that your kids will lose out vs-a vs the cohort. The higher degree of difficulties in psle maths should be a blessing in disguise as it is an opportunity for your kids to move ahead.

[tutormum]

Chenonceau:

tutormum:

Let me just add my 2 cents worth.


Kids who rise above the system and do well either:
1. Are naturally of high ability and gifted and don't need tuition
...

Kids who are struggling in the system either:
1. Have low ability and not gifted

I agree with most of your post... except that I wanna point out that in a system where teaching quality is patchy across schools, even kids of high ability like my DS won't make it good.

I am Chinese illiterate. I am a Math Idiot. My knowledge of the hard sciences is rudimentary. All I did was to pick high quality resources for each of these subjects and my DS did the rest. I didn't ever actually explain anything. He had the reading materials and he learnt.

Sadly, the textbook is insufficient for him to learn even the basics on his own... let alone pass exams with questions set from stuff not taught and nowhere to be found documented in the few pages of school notes he received.

Low ability students can do very well indeed given enough tuition by pushy parents from a young age. The problem arises when the system mis-classes low ability as high ability simply because these have access to tuition... and misclasses high ability as low ability those without access to tuition.

If I had not started my 1-person library-school last year, I would never have found out that my DS is high ability. My Boy skimmed Onsponge in ONE WEEK... did 2 sums from each sub-chapter... and that was enough to help him ace his exam. Who would have known if I had not myself begun to teach him?

I know my post is not comprehensive enough. I agree with you cos my DS3 falls in the same category as your son and what you posted is true. :salute: I discovered his abilities earlier therefore I have had it easy with him. Being in a neighbourhood school, teaching qualities were indeed patchy (to borrow your expression). His teachers do agree that he knows beyond the textbooks and needs very little guidance. He sustains on interest alone, reading widely on topics that interest him. PSLE was a breeze not because he studied hard but because he was resourceful enough to get his own materials (mostly from the internet). For example he revised his science by watching Eureka. Being in a branded secondary school, he has been given access to high quality materials by his teachers something that DS1 was denied cos he went to a neighbourhood secondary school where it was deemed that such materials were either beyond his ability or his teachers' reach. :censored: True results of our education system can only be seen 10 or 20 years from now. Those A and A* in PSLE, O and A levels are not accurate gauge of the success or failure of our system. I know of many who have deep pockets choose to send their children overseas after their O levels. Some didn't even wait for PSLE to do so. The full blow of what our system produces has yet to be seen (we can see most of them already - low morale values, elitism etc). :sad: :sad:

[blessed777]

coast:

When my PS just started P1, we had a gathering with his K2 classmates parents to continue their bond even though they are now in separate schools. I had not even heard of \"Berries\", \"Learning Lab\", .... until then.


Then a close friend called me ... her kid in P1 at a branded school ... the teacher said \"your kid is slow in Maths and I am concerned ... are you worried?\" (it was only P1 Term 1). :scared: They kept getting calls from the teacher. Her kid is having tuition now.

Not all schools are like that. I know my DS school grouped the slow learners (during school hours) so that they attend another class with a smaller ratio (Learning Support Programme) and they do it quietly. I know it because my DS came home one day and told me these few kids always bring back gifts from those classes

If yr friend's kid in a neighbourhood school it is unlikely be pestered by teachers like that , my dd now is P6 in neighbourhood school, during my dd P1 time there were some kids didn't even hv any preschool education. All p1 kids were tested at the begining of school yr to segregate them according to their readiness, i think it is necessary otherwise teachers will be tortured in handling kids as the gap among the kids can be significant. Teachers in neighbourhood schools sometimes need to work harder, most of my dd friends only hv tuition for weak subject , n most of them go to neighbourhood affordable tuition ctr such as those in community centres, some dont even hv any tuition. Many of them cant afford to hv a parent stay at home to coach them as double income is neccesary for them. Her school have that Learning Support Progamme for slow learner (for sure he he) & this yr dd is placed in such class for Chinese Im illiterate in Chinese, didnt even know what chinese book to buy her other than school text bk, she failed chinese frm P3-P5. On day 1 when the class started they were told that the reason they were not put in foundation chinese is because they are doing well with 3 other subjects, Im glad that the school hv faith on dd. There were 12 kids in the class, most of them are coming frm non speaking chinese family like my dd & some of them are foreigners. 1 of the kids is from top class & i think that kid is very2 good in 3 other subjects to be able to hang on top class while her chinese score pulling her overall score down. my dd on & off top class because of her chinese score. She enjoy the class because its an interactive class, not boring & got chocolates as games rewards the teacher wont move foward unless the kids truly understand the topics. My dd used to hate chinese, now she is motivated to learn.. something which tuition was unable to gv her for many yrs. Last month she begged me to set her free from her private chinese tuition & prefer to study by herself. She said that she does not benefit much from that tuition, instead what she now learn in school in LSP class help her better. I was at lost at first, psle is months away this is not the time to experiment, some parents add on more tuition while my dd want to stop the only tuition she has. This is the only tuition she ever had in her entire 12yrs life, & she had it on & off changing tuition centres & private tutor n she always wants to stop after few months.
But this time I see drive on her self, when she is motivated she can scores A* for science on her own & I never even teach her for this subject coz i hv no time to re-learn science, even if the school want to test beyond the syllabus im sure she still can answer at least some questions as she reads lots of science materials out of curiousity, I dont buy her science bks other than school text bk as I want her to spend enough time in other subjects, but still she google a lot of science articles, dragging her father to bring her to library borrowing tons of science bks, i even spotted her reading her father medical dictionary.. I was worry whether she be able to conquer chinese on her own or even getting worse..until last night when i asked her if she is ready fr today chinese exam,..she told me that she find learning chinese no longer hard..pheww.. finally.. something i've been waiting for yrs.. it came with a cost though..for 5 months she has put lots of effort studying chinese hard trying to catch up those missing yrs at the expense of other subjects.. she admit that her science was neglected.. however im not too concern as im confident she is able to pick up science on her own.. my priority is for her to be able to learn independently & to hv the drive for learning then half of the battle won already..all this yrs of chinese tuition bear not much fruit because she didnt hv motivation & confident to learn it, none of them able to convince her that she actually CAN learn chinese.. regardless of the outcome of the exams that i hv yet to know, im already confident that chinese tution will be thing on the past for her.. from now on she will learn by herself.. & the most important thing is she become more independent in learning which will carry her further..

[Chenonceau]

Just curious... which lower primary parent (P1 & P2) would be interested to attend a free workshop (should I decide to conduct one) on How to teach/strategise your Lower Primary kids' learning in order to be prepared for a less-stressful PSLE in P6 AND without resorting to tuition for 4 subjects?