Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)
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Wow!! BeContented, your post hits closest to my view on this matter, and put very eloquently too.
Too which I will add 1 further nuance.....
I don't think it matters very much at all in the long run. -
BeContented:
So the system needs parents who are lazy and bochup (as opposed to kiasu) to praise its efforts? So we should expect our kids to be lazy and bochup and not teach them the attitude of trying hard to make it in life? I was so lazy and bochup that my kid skirted failure and ended up at the bottom of the heap.
Selflessness?? No, I am not that noble, just simply laziness & bochup attitude. Do I just sit back and watch.....not exactly cos' I started letting my kids have tuition from P4 and tho embarrassed to admit, tuition not because they can't cope, but rather to give that extra boost to maintain/improve.BeContented:
MOST schools provide the necessary. What about the bright kids in those that don't? They don't matter?School resources.....I feel that most schools do provide the necessary, but there will be some that provide more quality resources. True, MOE can do better with the resources, but in matter of time....some schools will again stand out and produce EVEN better resources and churn out top students. Simple reason....organization/schools are still run by humans....and humans are generally selfish and competitive (how many are truly selfless??) .....they want the advantage, they want to be differentiated. And parents will rush to those schools (so did I since I apply for transfer :oops: )
BeContented:
Okay. Reduce class size to 15-20.Potential....With a class size of 40, do you expect schools to have the ability to groom ALL kids to their potential?
BeContented:
And because children are differently motivated the system has the excuse to deny some children access to required material?And what is their real potential? IS it really that easy to gauge? And at what expense? Most of us believe strongly in the potential of our children......me too. BUT how hungry & discipline/motivated is the child?
BeContented:
That is why we need Professionals to teach. Parents are not professionals. Unfortunately, we increasingly find that parents/tutors teach better and more than the professionals.
We, the parents, the major stakeholders of our children, already have such difficulty grooming them to full potential (with 1-1 ratio).......I doubt the school can do that for big numbers.BeContented:
Really? You expect a 7/8/9 year old to do the same as what one normally expects of a 14 year old? Traipse off the to library all on his own because the child seems to know that the school is not giving him enough material?However, when a child is hungry, they will naturally source for more by themselves. This is one thing I admire about the PRC kids....they are seriously hungry. But as kiasu parent, of course I'll be glad if there are additional resources.
No... only us adults have that capacity for analysis.
My DS wanted to do well. Many parents who bring their kids to me want to do well. But a young child of even 9/10/11... won't know how to analyze why and how he/she did not do well in order to take the necessary remedial measures. In the past, motivated children could study hard from textbooks and do well. Now, no longer. That's why better textbooks are important... so that such motivated children have the wherewithal to learn no matter WHAT the school.
BUT, he was so motivated that when I threw him Onsponge, he devoured.
BeContented:
I don't see parent expectations as relevant to the discussion about schools providing differential access to learning material.Expectation.....this is really one of the tough part. Whenever I feel my kids have potential to perform better....I expect more ... and MORE .... and MORE ....
Whenever I compare them to my GEP neighbour, I push them more....cos' I know if they would just play less, spend more time studying/learning, they will be a step nearer to their FULL potential. BUT is the child happy? Do I need to push them to that extend? And where exactly is that FULL potential? As long as one is always learning.....that's most important isn't it?? Frankly, I'm always in a dilemma too.
The way people go on about parent expectations it would seem that most parents in Singapore don't love their kids or don't know how to calibrate their expectations of kids. So... if you have a failing kid... you will be bochap and lazy too? You have NO expectations of your kids? I for one, didn't even bring my son to GEP testing. Many parents decide to leave their kids in mainstream for various reasons. So these bochap parents with low expectations should be given prizes for being good non-kiasu parents?
The system would have us inculcate values of bochapness and laziness so that it can continue to be inefficient and ineffective? -
BeContented:
Wow! Becontented, you certainly are rare in that you can stand back and watch with perfect equanimity whilst one lousy school grooms your child to BELOW his/her potential... and applaud. I am sure such generosity with the system is beyond me... and beyond the capability of many parents.Chenonceau:
[quote=\"BeContented\"]
:hi5: :goodpost: :goodpost:
I have 2 kids in different neighborhood Sch too. While one is a good sch, the other is probably one of the lousiest around this area (IMO & only comparing academics). Both kids' abilities are quite similar.....so I can see the difference in Sch. Eventually, my expectation from each has to be set differently too.
I am not sure whether to kudos you or not for your selflessness. I only know that such selflessness is beyond me. At the end of the day, I feel more for my child than I do for supporting a system that allows schools to groom him to BELOW his potential.
Selflessness?? No, I am not that noble, just simply laziness & bochup attitude. Do I just sit back and watch.....not exactly cos' I started letting my kids have tuition from P4 and tho embarrassed to admit, tuition not because they can't cope, but rather to give that extra boost to maintain/improve.
I'm a simple person, not strong in analysis and my perspective can be pretty narrow.....but these are my views.
School resources.....I feel that most schools do provide the necessary, but there will be some that provide more quality resources. True, MOE can do better with the resources, but in matter of time....some schools will again stand out and produce EVEN better resources and churn out top students. Simple reason....organization/schools are still run by humans....and humans are generally selfish and competitive (how many are truly selfless??) .....they want the advantage, they want to be differentiated. And parents will rush to those schools (so did I since I apply for transfer :oops: )
Potential....With a class size of 40, do you expect schools to have the ability to groom ALL kids to their potential? And what is their real potential? IS it really that easy to gauge? And at what expense? Most of us believe strongly in the potential of our children......me too. BUT how hungry & discipline/motivated is the child? I have quite a fair bit of books at home.... but sadly, many are untouched. Yes, I can nag & force, but I dun think they absorb anything useful thru that method.
We, the parents, the major stakeholders of our children, already have such difficulty grooming them to full potential (with 1-1 ratio).......I doubt the school can do that for big numbers. However, when a child is hungry, they will naturally source for more by themselves. This is one thing I admire about the PRC kids....they are seriously hungry. But as kiasu parent, of course I'll be glad if there are additional resources.
Expectation.....this is really one of the tough part. Whenever I feel my kids have potential to perform better....I expect more ... and MORE .... and MORE ....
Whenever I compare them to my GEP neighbour, I push them more....cos' I know if they would just play less, spend more time studying/learning, they will be a step nearer to their FULL potential. BUT is the child happy? Do I need to push them to that extend? And where exactly is that FULL potential? As long as one is always learning.....that's most important isn't it?? Frankly, I'm always in a dilemma too.
But I do know one thing......I cannot over protect my kids, they need to have some minor setbacks to learn some lessons and about the real world.
Chinese saying \"δΈε±±θΏζδΈε±±ι« οΌ ε€©ε€ζ倩β .....
Hope I am talking sense
PS : I must admit, my experience may be limited. I kinda have it easy with regards to my kids study.........but I will know the real truth when PSLE comes. Perhaps then I'll regret not doing more.
[/quote] :goodpost:
Hi BeContented, EVERYTHING you said MADE SENSE... :hugs: :salute:
I have not read a good post for a l-o-n-g time.. Thank you for speaking what I have been thinking of, but am not able to express in words... :hi5: -
firefly38:
If your child is in GEP... and in NYPS, I don't blame you for being so positive. If your child is top of the heap, as in BeContented's case (and you have money and don't mind to pay for tuition to maintain your child at the top), then I also don't blame you for thinking lousy textbooks are acceptable.
:goodpost:
Hi BeContented, EVERYTHING you said MADE SENSE... :hugs: :salute:
I have not read a good post for a l-o-n-g time.. Thank you for speaking what I have been thinking of, but am not able to express in words... :hi5:
It's different life experiences. Unfortunately, we won't know until the nation next goes to the polls in 2016 whether people like you are in the minority or the majority. Time will tell. -
If I may add a voice to the discussion, although it might be slightly biased. I'm a tutor at a premier tuition center and have experience in being a key personnel in a \"branded\" primary school. Having read the various perspectives of parents about how schools might be placing 'undue' stress on students and your concerns about labeling them, I felt compelled to lend some views to the issues.
2 Ps jump to mind; Perspective and priorities.
First, the term 'fullest potential' is problematic... Whose perspective/estimation of the child's potential? (The parent's? The teacher's? the tutors? The school's or the child's personal understanding?) In an ideal world, we obviously would love it if all parties have a common understanding of the child's potential. However particularly sticky situations arise when, through no fault in any party, when people have differing estimation of the child's potential. I have witnessed parents demanding teachers to change a child's grade from a B to a A. (It was for Chinese; Parent's rationale; He has always been the top student in his level in Pri sch, thus its not possible for his grades to drop so drastically in Sec 1. The boy was from ACS(P) and he went to HCI.) I have also similarly witnessed teachers making an unfair assessment of a child's abilities. (Giving a poor grade for a English composition because the child did not use varied vocabulary. Whoever decided that a good English writing is determined by the number of good vocabulary in it? If that is the case the C.S Lewis would have fared very badly in our system.)
There is no simple solution to this, as when it comes to recognizing and having an accurate read of a child's abilities, we need the expertise, experience and awareness of the scope of education to make an accurate judgement. Good teachers, both in schools and tuition centers, would take the time to carefully evaluate the child. They also know that a child's ability differs from subject to subject and sometimes even from topic to topic. I can confidently say that anyone who boasts that they can know a child's ability completely through one single test is complete hokum. Thus, I'm very uncomfortable with our educational reality of high-stakes examinations like the PSLE.
Secondly, the issue is also informed by different priorities. Some parents would like their children to become the best that they can be academically, while some will argue that a balanced and happy childhood is more important. Who are we to decide which decision is wrong and which is right? Obviously, our tuition center's business depends on parent's wanting to push their children academically, but we would never, ever argue that it is wrong to place their priorities in other areas of their lives. In fact, that shows tremendous courage in light of the realities in Singapore. This is also true for schools. Some schools place priorities in different areas; we would think that all schools prioritizes academics, but this is not always the case. Some schools might make the executive decision that some curriculum hours or resources be used to expand on other areas like character development, CCAs, niche areas, etc... This is in recognition of those strengths and also to give schools the space to develop their own areas of specialty
If a parents wants and has the resources to provide the \"extra\" for their child, prudence and careful selection needs to be exercised. Not all centers practice or believe in differentiation. Simply by labeling a child HA or placing them in a HAL class, is not enough, the right kind of support and the flexibility to adjust lesson objectives and resources to the learning needs of the child is essential. That is why we insist on hiring experienced teachers who buy in to the value of differentiation. I would also like to share a graphic video by Sir Ken Robinson, which I believe summarizes the need for differentiation and customized support for children.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U -
(And parents will rush to those schools (so did I since I apply for transfer :oops: ))
by BeContented
I'm not picking up a quarrel nor I'm debating. But what I see you already chup not bochup. Your child in good school so no worries.
But my child is not in those top school. So most I agreed with Chenonceau.
(BUT is the child happy? Do I need to push them to that extend? And where exactly is that FULL potential? As long as one is always learning.....that's most important isn't it?? Frankly, I'm always in a dilemma too. ) by BeContented
In fact, every parents want their child to be happy and like to study and be motivated and to learn on their own. But you must have the materials for them to do so in the first place.
FYI, my 2nd child got 4 CCA, one inside school, 3 outside school. Its not I force him to take, it is him who beg me for them. He enjoyed all of them. He has limited time to revise his work so good materials is thus needed and proper teaching is require to fight for time. :nosebleed: -
Mychildren:
BeContented:
(And parents will rush to those schools (so did I since I apply for transfer :oops: ))
I'm not picking up a quarrel nor I'm debating. But what I see you already chup not bochup. Your child in good school so no worries.
But my child is not in those top school. So most I agreed with Chenonceau.
Yes....chup enough to apply transfer....but if cannot, will accept. Anyway, only 1 got in...the other still stay in the lousy school and I didn't bother to try again (actually if I try hard enough, the other child may get in too). But there's also consideration about 'Big fish in small pond vs Small fish in big pond' so things are not always so straightforward.
And when I say lousy....sigh.....it's easily the bottom 25% (or worse) in SG (not just my zone)Mychildren:
Yes, with limited time.....proper resources is necessary. But do you think you can get via from other schools that easily? Just being blunt, but I do see some postings asking to buy some materials without success even tho it's tuition centres that are really popular.......human....humanIn fact, every parents want their child to be happy and like to study and be motivated and to learn on their own. But you must have the materials for them to do so in the first place.
FYI, my 2nd child got 4 CCA, one inside school, 3 outside school. Its not I force him to take, it is him who beg me for them. He enjoyed all of them. He has limited time to revise his work so good materials is thus needed and proper teaching is require to fight for time. :nosebleed: Similarly, if schools want to differentiate themselves, why would they want to distribute their resources to other schools?
As for child being happy.....you know our favourite phrase?
\"We are doing this for your own good......\"
I think AdvancedAcademia has summed up very well about the 2Ps.
Cheers. -
I enjoy reading all the varying perspectives. Shows the true diversity of all readers here. May I just ask everyone to think about the one fundamental thing that we are really trying to get to the bottom of here:
Is there or is there not a problem with resources not being equitably allocated across all primary schools belonging to the public domain of education?
Think of it akin to World Hunger. Some devote their entire lives to raising awareness and solving it, some know itβs a problem but donβt think anything can be done to eradicate it, some watch screen shots of it and flick to another channel because it doesnβt involve them, some watch the shots and discuss what to have for lunch today. But at the very least, nobody denies that World Hunger exists.
Are we debating about whether a problem exists or not, or are we debating if doing anything would help the problem, or are we saying itβs how you define the problem of World Hunger? It ainβt that bad unless it hits like more than x countries?
I think some of us here are saying definitively that we think there is a problem. -
Frankly speaking, I never get materials from other school except for top school exam papers that are sold in the market. I only source materials from Popular or 2nd hand bookstore or get those recommended by the parents who their children had already taken PSLE before.
-
Chenonceau:
Chen,
So the system needs parents who are lazy and bochup (as opposed to kiasu) to praise its efforts? So we should expect our kids to be lazy and bochup and not teach them the attitude of trying hard to make it in life? I was so lazy and bochup that my kid skirted failure and ended up at the bottom of the heap.BeContented:
Selflessness?? No, I am not that noble, just simply laziness & bochup attitude. Do I just sit back and watch.....not exactly cos' I started letting my kids have tuition from P4 and tho embarrassed to admit, tuition not because they can't cope, but rather to give that extra boost to maintain/improve.BeContented:
MOST schools provide the necessary. What about the bright kids in those that don't? They don't matter?School resources.....I feel that most schools do provide the necessary, but there will be some that provide more quality resources. True, MOE can do better with the resources, but in matter of time....some schools will again stand out and produce EVEN better resources and churn out top students. Simple reason....organization/schools are still run by humans....and humans are generally selfish and competitive (how many are truly selfless??) .....they want the advantage, they want to be differentiated. And parents will rush to those schools (so did I since I apply for transfer :oops: )
BeContented:
Okay. Reduce class size to 15-20.Potential....With a class size of 40, do you expect schools to have the ability to groom ALL kids to their potential?
BeContented:
And because children are differently motivated the system has the excuse to deny some children access to required material?And what is their real potential? IS it really that easy to gauge? And at what expense? Most of us believe strongly in the potential of our children......me too. BUT how hungry & discipline/motivated is the child?
BeContented:
That is why we need Professionals to teach. Parents are not professionals. Unfortunately, we increasingly find that parents/tutors teach better and more than the professionals.
We, the parents, the major stakeholders of our children, already have such difficulty grooming them to full potential (with 1-1 ratio).......I doubt the school can do that for big numbers.BeContented:
Really? You expect a 7/8/9 year old to do the same as what one normally expects of a 14 year old? Traipse off the to library all on his own because the child seems to know that the school is not giving him enough material?However, when a child is hungry, they will naturally source for more by themselves. This is one thing I admire about the PRC kids....they are seriously hungry. But as kiasu parent, of course I'll be glad if there are additional resources.
No... only us adults have that capacity for analysis.
My DS wanted to do well. Many parents who bring their kids to me want to do well. But a young child of even 9/10/11... won't know how to analyze why and how he/she did not do well in order to take the necessary remedial measures. In the past, motivated children could study hard from textbooks and do well. Now, no longer. That's why better textbooks are important... so that such motivated children have the wherewithal to learn no matter WHAT the school.
BUT, he was so motivated that when I threw him Onsponge, he devoured.
BeContented:
I don't see parent expectations as relevant to the discussion about schools providing differential access to learning material.Expectation.....this is really one of the tough part. Whenever I feel my kids have potential to perform better....I expect more ... and MORE .... and MORE ....
Whenever I compare them to my GEP neighbour, I push them more....cos' I know if they would just play less, spend more time studying/learning, they will be a step nearer to their FULL potential. BUT is the child happy? Do I need to push them to that extend? And where exactly is that FULL potential? As long as one is always learning.....that's most important isn't it?? Frankly, I'm always in a dilemma too.
The way people go on about parent expectations it would seem that most parents in Singapore don't love their kids or don't know how to calibrate their expectations of kids. So... if you have a failing kid... you will be bochap and lazy too? You have NO expectations of your kids? I for one, didn't even bring my son to GEP testing. Many parents decide to leave their kids in mainstream for various reasons. So these bochap parents with low expectations should be given prizes for being good non-kiasu parents?
The system would have us inculcate values of bochapness and laziness so that it can continue to be inefficient and ineffective?
You are one of my favourite here even tho I dun agree with some of your posts but I do admire your strong conviction, selflessless & strength to fight for the less-privileged kids.
My English is not strong, and I can't put across my thoughts properly, so guess I won't be answering to the above cos I simply dunno how to :oops:
In my simple words:--
We are all molded by our own experience and coupled with all the different factors (education/cultural background, financial etc etc etc), so really there is no right or wrong. Different strokes for different kids. What I can see these days is....our expectations, our demands, our quest to be the best etc has its repercussions. I'm not inculcating bochup-laziness-inefficient, on the contrary, I hope my kids will not be like me.....but our quest for being the best is putting a lot of pressure on our kids. For me, I know my kids won't be the best/top etc....I just want them to be good enough to survive well and contented and happy enough like me
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