Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)

[sunflower]

oxyleo:

I agree with Chenonceau.


Think of our education system this way. It's sort of like our current access to TV channels these days.

1) Free channels - Ch 5, 8, okto...
2) Pay TV -
(i) Basic Tier Cable TV
(ii) Add-on channels
(iii) On-demand TV

The good schools, as Chen describes, give you full access to ALL channels, on the house, mind you.
Some schools give you only the free channels, and a bit of basic tier pay-TV.
According to experiences shared with me by some friends, it seems that the kids who are streamed to classes other than the top classes also are deliberately only given access to Free TV, because they are deemed to be less capable, and hence really shouldn't view more than they brains can take.

Now think of PSLE as a test that assesses you on what you watch during the last 6 years, and the content of that cuts across all available channels on both Free and Pay Tv.

Kids who are in anything other than the good schools have to find a way to access all the other channels. Their parents, mostly not being experts in the field, need to find out somehow what is being aired on those other channels, in an amateurish, non-targeted manner. Because of this, many have decided to turn to tuition in the hope that the tution centers have a better idea than them as to what their kids were missing out on all those other channels.

If we veer the discussion away from education for a moment, and turn it purely to one of viewing TV for pleasure, surely many would argue almost instantly that it isn't fair that some estates, such as the Bukit Timah areas, should get to watch all channels whilst others get only some. It is unlikely that people would be accepting of the differences. Whether you have the time or the capacity to watch and appreciate all the channels is besides the point.

Now, apply the above into the context of public education. Whether a child has the ability to absorb everything is besides the point. Shouldn't they all have access to what's out there? At the very least to the point of what will be tested? Whilst streaming arguably works in favor of the smarter ones, and we do want to ensure they don't get bored and lose interest, are we doing the right thing by limiting or not ensuring that the other children have access to all the other channels?

I think it's not easy for teachers in normal neighbourhood schools to give their students all the resources that the teachers in so call good schools such as NYPS give their students. I'm not sure but I guess even in NYPS, not all classes are all given equal kind of notes. In the first place, many students start P1 at different levels and by giving ALL schools and everybody the same \"cheem\" stuff, it may even demoralise the weaker students further because they can't understand and may not learn as fast, prompting those in neighbourhood schools to believe that tuition is indeed necessary in order to fill in the gaps.

[sunflower]

Mychildren:

At present, there is no way to tell whether a child underperforms because he is not taught (and has no access to the material)... or because he just can't handle the material. No one is asking for 100% comprehensive textbooks... but one certainly does not expect the textbooks to document only 20% of what one needs to know for PSLE. Seriously, to do well in school exams, one hardly needs to flip the textbooks at all. They are really BASIC, as you put it.


Many children who ARE capable are NOT fulfilling their potential because they are NOT taught the material (and their parents DON'T give them tuition)... It's almost like a beehive where some bee larvae are fed Royal Jelly because they are the designated Queen Bees. The quantity and quality of the educational material our children are fed with... do have a bearing on their PSLE results.
by Chenonceau

:goodpost:

GOOD POST & WELL SAID!!!
Totally AGREE with you!

I've been sourcing materials for my children now. No point depending on the school.
Parents of p1 & 2 won't feel a sting now. They'll know it as children progress from p4 onwards. Wait for the school to do something, by the time my children already finished their PSLE lo....... Got to take action before it's too late. Sigh, my job lo...... :sick:

Err...I think not only parents of children in schools who don't seemed to provide the necessary materials who are giving extra stuff to their children, being kiasu, parents of branded schools are doing the same as well, boosting their children's performance with enrichment and tuition, despite the schools having done their part in teaching and giving extra resources (as believed by many parents).

[metz]

[quote] 40% of NYPS scores above 25X. This is because the school tests hard and teaches a lot. This is school specific too I would imagine. School specificity is a poor excuse for the variance in quality delivered by across schools in Singapore wherein...


Well, I think why 40% of NYPS scores above 25X is because the parents (probably more than 70% of them) who got their children into this school are already kiasu themselves, and most probably would have given their children lots of enrichment/tuition before their children start P1. The school has no choice but to adjust and teach according to the majority students' ability, that's why the perceived high standard.[/quote]Are we sure that this 40% of NYPS who scores above 25X is the result of school's teaching ONLY and nothing esle? :scratchhead:

[sunflower]

3Boys:

Wow!! BeContented, your post hits closest to my view on this matter, and put very eloquently too.


Too which I will add 1 further nuance.....

I don't think it matters very much at all in the long run.

Indeed, I agree with you on that, 3Boys. :hi5:

[sunflower]

chamonix:

[quote] 40% of NYPS scores above 25X. This is because the school tests hard and teaches a lot. This is school specific too I would imagine. School specificity is a poor excuse for the variance in quality delivered by across schools in Singapore wherein...


Well, I think why 40% of NYPS scores above 25X is because the parents (probably more than 70% of them) who got their children into this school are already kiasu themselves, and most probably would have given their children lots of enrichment/tuition before their children start P1. The school has no choice but to adjust and teach according to the majority students' ability, that's why the perceived high standard.

Are we sure that this 40% of NYPS who scores above 25X is the result of school's teaching ONLY and nothing esle? :scratchhead:[/quote]Kekeke...I don't think so. I hear of GEP students in NYPS, and for that matter, many other students in so called branded schools taking enrichment and tuition too. Some maybe, but I would think majority having that score is not due ONLY to the school's teaching.

[sunflower]

Chenonceau:

BeContented:

Potential....With a class size of 40, do you expect schools to have the ability to groom ALL kids to their potential?

Okay. Reduce class size to 15-20.

Regarding class size, of course it would benefit all if class size is reduced. But with that number of students in class, our school fees would definitely have to go up, or a significant amount of the budget, in the expense of others, would have to go to education. In some countries, class size in private schools are around that, and parents pay thousands of dollars to get their children into these schools. Already in our independent IP/IB schools with class size of about 20-25, schools fees are really expensive, as compared to normal government schools. There are also many other things to consider, the no. and size of the schools to be built (hopefully we do not build and close down after a few years due to insufficient intake), the no. of teachers that needed to be hired (do we want more foreigners to fill in the gaps?), the population trend etc etc. Taking everything into consideration, I'm not so sure whether it's sustainable.

Someone told me some schools in China have about 60 children in a class. If they are able to maintain discipline and students learn in that kind of environment, we are already very lucky as compared to them.

In fact, I know of some schools that already have 2 form teachers per class to support each other. With the right kind of support and no unnecessary admin and committee work, I'm sure teachers should be able to dedicate their time to the students, teaching, knowing and inspiring them.

[sunflower]

Edureach:

All primary school teachers are qualified. The most popular schools do not have a monopoly of teaching talents. You will find good and average teachers in every school.



The choice and opportunities are ours to develop our kids to realise their full potential. No point blaming the schools on this occassion.

Just treat it as an opportunity to develop and strengthen our kids for future challenges.

God bless.

I agree that there are both good and average teachers in every school. I've got a friend whose son managed to get into one of those popular, branded schools. Unfortunately, he got some unconcerned and unmotivated teachers during some of his primary school years, and that affected him a lot.

Do we blame the school for the son's problem? Well, some would say hey, that's a good school, and all students are given excellent materials to study, we should not blame the school!

When I heard my friend's story, I was sadden that she did not realise what was happening, and hence, did not feedback to the school. When eventually she found out what was the problem, it was a tad too late. That's why I encourage us all to really know and communicate with our children well, and to have a good relationship and have open communication with your child's teachers. They are there to help, not sabotage your child. Remember, their school's PSLE result is at stake. The school also want your children to do well, and in trying to do so, may have employed the wrong strategy.

[sunflower]

Chenonceau:

Edureach:

[quote=\"Mychildren\"]<As parents, we strive the best for our kids. We fill the gap by scourcing for external materials beyond schools' materials to position our kids.> by Edureach


That's what I'm doing now.

That's the correct attitude!

Blessed are your kids to hve a parent like you.

Yes... in the new normal, parents are good parents only when they hunker down and teach (or source for materials) in place of the schools. Some may find this acceptable. I do not.

MOE should just close down schools and run an SSATs equivalent testing centre to administer the common exam. Then, parents will just hire tutors or homeschool... or send to TLL. If parents have to do this in place of schools, then what are schools for.[/quote]Yes, indeed, what are schools for if all they need to do is to ensure everyone have access to the same resources, and test students even before teaching them the necessary. If teachers are not doing their job, please do not just keep quiet. Feedback to them the problem, give constructive criticism and perhaps suggest alternatives and solutions. This is your child, help the school to help your child, and many others who may also encounter the same problems as your child. The school will be grateful to you.

[sunflower]

Strparent:

sean wife:

Think this is the answer to part 2. I also got the same answer...my method is to divide the distance between town a and b into 5 parts.... Actually part and b can be solved in the same way right, except starting time and time taken is different...

EduReach, seanwife,

thanks for making the solution so freaking simple. the funny thing is, the teacher gave them a correction solution slightly differently, instead of this clear simple-to-understand model solution.

1min
A --> 1/30 km
E --> 1/45 km
} 1/18 km

18/1 = 18mins

a) 2.20pm ------> 2.38pm ANS.
and so on for (b)

:scratchhead: :scratchhead:

wonderm:

This is a very interesting question. If one were to use algebra (Sec level maths) to solve, it is actually much more lengthy and less elegant than using model method.

it challenges those who are good in maths, and really shows how a seemingly difficult or impossible question can be very easily solved by drawing a simple model. If we expect the teacher to have given similar questions in class before the test, it really becomes pointless and makes learning maths much more painful as the children would think they need to remember the methods for all different kinds of questions.

Wonderm,

thank you for the enlightened statements.
I admit - I have always been an opposition of the models method. Absolutely hate it, because I keep telling my kids that they do not use this anymore in sec sch, so for them, I would tell them to use algebra since P5.
and hence this question stumped me, becoz I tried to make a direct question complicated ! :oops: After seeing how simple Edureach explained the solution, I have been humbled by models today. :gloomy:

DS never had this issue, because so far, algebra solves most questions quicker for him during P5/P6. His teachers accepted it, but DD teacher always argued that she cannot use algebra, preferably models and units.

Thanks again all.

This is a good example of how a seemingly difficult question can be solved easily by students who are really talented in maths. Maths is the only subject that is possible to score full marks, and everybody is aiming for that, which stresses everyone. If the maths paper is set in such a way that everyone scores 100, than it doesn't make much sense to even have that exam at all.

Having 1 or 2 challenging questions can really sieve out those who are naturally talented in maths, and if that's where their talent lies, than so be it. As everyone can see, to solve this question, we just need to understand a few fundamental concepts and principal, and the school would have probably taught the concept. Those who are good will be able to see thru and apply. It's not possible and unrealistic to expect students to be exposed to ALL the variations of questions with regards to the application of the concepts. Algebra is very useful, but may not be the best method. We think the question is difficult because we have been trained and boxed in, unable to think out of the box. Sometimes using algebra is more cumbersome than using simple model and logic.

Why is NYPS, or top schools papers difficult? Is it because the teachers have exposed the students to everything in the paper? I don't think so. But I guess the teachers expect the students to have been exposed to similar type questions in their tuition and enrichment classes, and if they ONLY set 1 -2 challenging questions, nearly the whole school would be scoring 100. Hence, their whole paper is full of challenging questions. If our children look at the paper, they'll faint. :shock: The paper caters to THEIR students overall standard (which is already high even before P1), and that is not representative of PSLE standard. Neighbourhood schools who disregard the ability of their own student intake and follow NYPS style of setting paper is killing themselves, and demoralising their students in the process.

Teachers teach according to the students' ability, and if they teach and test properly, students of high ability can easily be identified. These students should then be stretched by exposing them to more challenging stuff. As mentioned before, my children's primary school tests/exams have been quite balanced, more similar to PSLE style (I guess the teachers have marked PSLE papers before and would have probably seen pass years' paper to know what's required).

[Chenonceau]

sunflower:

chamonix:

[quote] 40% of NYPS scores above 25X. This is because the school tests hard and teaches a lot. This is school specific too I would imagine. School specificity is a poor excuse for the variance in quality delivered by across schools in Singapore wherein...


Well, I think why 40% of NYPS scores above 25X is because the parents (probably more than 70% of them) who got their children into this school are already kiasu themselves, and most probably would have given their children lots of enrichment/tuition before their children start P1. The school has no choice but to adjust and teach according to the majority students' ability, that's why the perceived high standard.

Are we sure that this 40% of NYPS who scores above 25X is the result of school's teaching ONLY and nothing esle? :scratchhead:

Kekeke...I don't think so. I hear of GEP students in NYPS, and for that matter, many other students in so called branded schools taking enrichment and tuition too. Some maybe, but I would think majority having that score is not due ONLY to the school's teaching.[/quote]I am sure it isn't just due to school's teaching. There is a measure of student effort in the equation. Nonetheless, this 40% compared to another school's 2% says something about the school. It cannot all be students.