Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)

[Chenonceau]

sunflower:

Hi Chenonceau, not sure whether you've read pg 32 of my response in blue, perhaps you'll get a better flow of ideas from there.

Yup! I finally saw it. Thanks for this note.

[Mychildren]

sunflower:

Why are we so stressed up? Is it because we aim high and expect our children to get into one of those elite schools? I think our children should try their best, but not in the expense of their childhood. Let them take the lead, according to each of their own capabilities and talents (may or may not be in the academic arena). I've heard of late bloomers (who failed on several occasions in primary school's exams/tests) but who got 6A1s in a neighbourhood secondary school and got into his dream JC. That poor chap had tuitions after tuitions, trying to keep up with the primary school's high standards, but became the top scorer in the \"O\" levels of that secondary school, and continue to top in JC.


There is no one perfect education system, just like there is no ONE perfect government/political party. It is how we, the people, make the best out of it. Something to ponder: Finland's education system has been considered as one of the world's best by many, but look at their citizen's suicide rate, which is also one of the world's highest (within top 10).

http://www.fathersforlife.org/health/who_suicide_rates.htm
http://www.aneki.com/suicide.html

Yes, I do see one real example of a kid who did so so for his PSLE, got in a so so secondary school but when he is in Poly, he flied high there. Now, in university in Singapore. Kind of late bloomer like sunflower had mentioned.

Some may say,\"No choice la, my child is like that, I resign myself to fate!\" Let him be like that la, cannot do anything to improve since he already try his best.\"

Or some may say,\"I'll do whatever that I can and help this child. He can improve with motivation and some guidance. Let me see in which area I can start with in guiding him.\"

It does not mean that the latter one will spoon feed the child. May be some form of encouragement and some guidance. I also don't see that by encouraging and guiding will kill his childhood. Of course, work need to be balance with play too. Do understand that there is also play in work too.

If you just let them take the lead, children are still children, they'll choose to play or turn on the TV to watch cartoon or play PC games the whole day....... at this age.

[Mychildren]

BeContented,


My apology, if I sounds offensive the other time. :salute:

I, sincerely,hope all of us come here to share our views, to help our society and education to improve to a better one.

[Chenonceau]

sunflower:

Chenonceau:

[quote=\"BeContented\"]Potential....With a class size of 40, do you expect schools to have the ability to groom ALL kids to their potential?

Okay. Reduce class size to 15-20.

Regarding class size, of course it would benefit all if class size is reduced. But with that number of students in class, our school fees would definitely have to go up, or a significant amount of the budget, in the expense of others, would have to go to education. In some countries, class size in private schools are around that, and parents pay thousands of dollars to get their children into these schools. Already in our independent IP/IB schools with class size of about 20-25, schools fees are really expensive, as compared to normal government schools. There are also many other things to consider, the no. and size of the schools to be built (hopefully we do not build and close down after a few years due to insufficient intake), the no. of teachers that needed to be hired (do we want more foreigners to fill in the gaps?), the population trend etc etc. Taking everything into consideration, I'm not so sure whether it's sustainable.

Someone told me some schools in China have about 60 children in a class. If they are able to maintain discipline and students learn in that kind of environment, we are already very lucky as compared to them.

In fact, I know of some schools that already have 2 form teachers per class to support each other. With the right kind of support and no unnecessary admin and committee work, I'm sure teachers should be able to dedicate their time to the students, teaching, knowing and inspiring them.[/quote]Hmmmm... I'm not really interested in the constraints. The fact is, the MOE put in a skills heavy syllabus which requires practice and individualized feedback to properly teach. This means smaller classes. If MOE has no capacity to teach TO the syllabus, then...

(1) Don't pretend education is largely free OR
(2) Keep the syllabus manageable for itself

In the current reality, parents spend a lot of money / time to help schools educate. I have to re-mark every single English compo marked by DS teacher. He did so few compos last year in school that if I gave him no practice at home, he would have just been borderline... and this is a boy who can handle Edgar Allan Poe.

Tuition has become a necessity.

[oxyleo]

sunflower:

Why are we so stressed up? Is it because we aim high and expect our children to get into one of those elite schools? I think our children should try their best, but not in the expense of their childhood. Let them take the lead, according to each of their own capabilities and talents (may or may not be in the academic arena). I've heard of late bloomers (who failed on several occasions in primary school's exams/tests) but who got 6A1s in a neighbourhood secondary school and got into his dream JC. That poor chap had tuitions after tuitions, trying to keep up with the primary school's high standards, but became the top scorer in the \"O\" levels of that secondary school, and continue to top in JC.


There is no one perfect education system, just like there is no ONE perfect government/political party. It is how we, the people, make the best out of it. Something to ponder: Finland's education system has been considered as one of the world's best by many, but look at their citizen's suicide rate, which is also
one of the world's highest (within top 10).

http://www.fathersforlife.org/health/who_suicide_rates.htm
http://www.aneki.com/suicide.html

Hi Sunflower,
Like you, I too used to think most parents were just too hung up on the whole education process. I too have yet to personally experience the bad effects of the system, as my son is only in P2 this year, and thus far has been blessed with good teachers and an empathizing school environment. But I have kept an open mind throughout, observed and asked around. Many of my friends with older children, have alluded that there is more than meets the eye, especially once you fall into the less than Best class. Bear in mind these friends are also not the typical \"sign-up for Genius enrichment class at 3 years old, or sign up for tuition for every subject possible 2 years ahead of cohort\" kind of people. They are the more relaxed sort of parent, myself included, believing in taking things easy, seeing how the child fits into the greater scheme of things sorta people. But they are now bearing the brunt of the harsh reality. In a way, it's like the very popular book years back, called \"Who Moved my Cheese\". Some time along the way, the cheese got moved, and the least KS parents didn't even know it.

I found this thread on KS Parents:
ST%20My%20Points%20-%206%20A1s%204A2s%20can%27t%20get%20into%20Hwa%20Chong%0AModerators%3A%20ChiefKiasu,%20ClassMonitor

This probably explains how the dynamics of our education system has changed over the years. Competition intensified further after the IP got introduced circa 2004. Dream JCs like Hwa Chong and Raffles are no longer meant for late bloomers.

[oxyleo]

sunflower:

oxyleo:

I agree with Chenonceau.


Think of our education system this way. It's sort of like our current access to TV channels these days.

1) Free channels - Ch 5, 8, okto...
2) Pay TV -
(i) Basic Tier Cable TV
(ii) Add-on channels
(iii) On-demand TV

The good schools, as Chen describes, give you full access to ALL channels, on the house, mind you.
Some schools give you only the free channels, and a bit of basic tier pay-TV.
According to experiences shared with me by some friends, it seems that the kids who are streamed to classes other than the top classes also are deliberately only given access to Free TV, because they are deemed to be less capable, and hence really shouldn't view more than they brains can take.

Now think of PSLE as a test that assesses you on what you watch during the last 6 years, and the content of that cuts across all available channels on both Free and Pay Tv.

Kids who are in anything other than the good schools have to find a way to access all the other channels. Their parents, mostly not being experts in the field, need to find out somehow what is being aired on those other channels, in an amateurish, non-targeted manner. Because of this, many have decided to turn to tuition in the hope that the tution centers have a better idea than them as to what their kids were missing out on all those other channels.

If we veer the discussion away from education for a moment, and turn it purely to one of viewing TV for pleasure, surely many would argue almost instantly that it isn't fair that some estates, such as the Bukit Timah areas, should get to watch all channels whilst others get only some. It is unlikely that people would be accepting of the differences. Whether you have the time or the capacity to watch and appreciate all the channels is besides the point.

Now, apply the above into the context of public education. Whether a child has the ability to absorb everything is besides the point. Shouldn't they all have access to what's out there? At the very least to the point of what will be tested? Whilst streaming arguably works in favor of the smarter ones, and we do want to ensure they don't get bored and lose interest, are we doing the right thing by limiting or not ensuring that the other children have access to all the other channels?

I think it's not easy for teachers in normal neighbourhood schools to give their students all the resources that the teachers in so call good schools such as NYPS give their students. I'm not sure but I guess even in NYPS, not all classes are all given equal kind of notes. In the first place, many students start P1 at different levels and by giving ALL schools and everybody the same \"cheem\" stuff, it may even demoralise the weaker students further because they can't understand and may not learn as fast, prompting those in neighbourhood schools to believe that tuition is indeed necessary in order to fill in the gaps.

I agree the burden should not fall solely on the teachers. In fact, I have total empathy for teachers in today's education system. They are called to be more than \"perfect\", in academics, in character, in people skills to deal with both children and their parents, and in administration, in order to help their schools apply for awards. They also need to be cheer leader, to motivate the children, and trouble shooting counsellors, to pick up signs of distress in the kids under their charge. Not to mention CCA I/Cs. Plus a string of KPIs to meet for their promotion. Other than the few black sheep one encounters in the teaching profession, teachers have my utmost respect.

The reason why gaps have resulted is largely due to (1) a lack of regulation by MOE on its service providers - the schools, as well as (2) the fear that parents have of their kids being left behind in the system. I do understand MOE has difficulties as it plays the role of regulator and service provider, but like DPM Teo highlighted yesterday in his speech to top civil servants, excellence in service should also be about humility and engagement with the public. Yes, it is impossible to please everyone, but common sense logic should prevail.

Interestingly, I chanced upon this on the internet. It was posted by UK Parliament reps during a visit to SG to study our education system in Feb 2012, a few months ago.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmeduc/1515/151514.htm

Many of us who are posting on this thread have already individually or collectively written in to the MOE, ST Forum etc voicing our concerns. Whilst we have not been ignored, the replies from MOE are standard, recycled even, and superficially assuring but unconvincing. Statistics provided are also cleverly broad sweeping.

[Mychildren]

I agree the burden should not fall solely on the teachers. In fact, I have total empathy for teachers in today's education system. They are called to be more than \"perfect\", in academics, in character, in people skills to deal with both children and their parents, and in administration, in order to help their schools apply for awards. They also need to be cheer leader, to motivate the children, and trouble shooting counsellors, to pick up signs of distress in the kids under their charge. Not to mention CCA I/Cs. Plus a string of KPIs to meet for their promotion. Other than the few black sheep one encounters in the teaching profession, teachers have my utmost respect. by oxyleo



Yes, in fact, all of my children's form teachers are good! They give me feedback whenever something is wrong with my kid, even with sms or phone call. I really appreciate their efforts. Its not easy to be a teacher nowadays. They, not only handle the students but also faces the complains from parents too. It does require passion for them to hold onto their profession. Here, I salute them. :salute:

[tutormum]

I had a friend whose child from NYPS told me that their students were trained from the word \"go\" i.e. they are grouped into different ability classes and trained for GEP and national competitions. These branded schools are not popular for nothing. When DS3 took his GEP test at a centre, he was only one of the 6 from his school compared to these popular schools which sent them by the bus load. DS3 observed that almost 90% of the students were from the same branded school. When he went to ACS for his maths competition, the same thing happened. I have to send him cos he was the only one who made it to the finals while NYPS which had 40 of them bagging gold had buses and teachers accompanying them. DS3 consoled himself that he was naturally gifted as he had no training whatsoever while those trained by the branded schools had artificial imputed intelligence so nothing glorifying. :faint:

My point is : Yes, it's true that the playing field is not level. Yes, the system needs fixing as majority of the students esp those from neighbourhood schools are disadvantaged. :?:

[Busymom]

wonderm:

Strparent:

errr, paiseh so many good long post on this thread, but pardon me, can I stray back on-topic on pr sch maths - esp. on setting questions beyond the standard syllabus...?


I have always try to let my kids learn on their own, from sch, from friends, from teachers, but never from tutors on maths.

today I look at my DD's maths SA1 paper, which she got zero for a 5-mark question. At first glance, I blew up and questioned on how she could not get it even partially right ? 5 marks wor, why ? no time ? nervous ? careless ? cant remember formula / method ?

the question looked straight forward enough, so I asked her to take a paper and started to show her how to solve it. After 10sec, I was stumped. LOL. So I tiam tiam, act cool a bit, ask my DS to come over ( incidentally he is in Sec2 and was always fantastic in maths ). Guess what ? It took him 15mins of pondering, writing and cancelling, before he eventually started to solve the question. But the workings were like so messy and mixed up, so I asked him to explain to his sister. He tried to explain, but DD catch no ball. In the meantime, I was trying to comprehend his work, and figured out how the solution was derived.
But I know there and then, that DD never learnt this in sch, it looks like something DS do in Maths Olympiad during his P5/P6 days.

Now I am in agreement with most parents about no unnecessary pressure or workload, no tuition, etc, but now I noted that the schools DO set questions beyond the syllabus, which is ridiculous. If you taught it, fine - of course some of her classmates get full marks for the paper.

So, yes, MOE should note this and if you want to set the standards higher, then make sure the schools teach the students as well, and not depend or expect all to learn them elsewhere.

The question which I paiseh to say, had me stumped until DS showed me the solution.
It looked to me initially like some parameters is lacking :oops:

Alan took 1/2 hr to walk from Town A to Town B at a constant speed.
Eric took 3/4 hr to walk from Town B to Town A at a constant speed.
Both started at 2.20pm.
a) at what time did Alan and Eric pass each other along the way ?
b) at the precise time when Alan reached Town B, Steven started walking from Town A to Town B at the same constant speed as Alan. At what time, did Steven and Eric meet ?

maybe it's just me, but share with me , if you think it is STANDARD primary sch maths ?

Is the answer 2.56pm?

Thanks for sharing. This is a very interesting question. If one were to use algebra (Sec level maths) to solve, it is actually much more lengthy and less elegant than using model method.

Which level is your DD in? It is indeed a challenging question, in my opinion it takes a P5 or P6 student who is strong in maths to be able to do it during exam condition. I don't think it requires the learning of any special method though.

If there was only 1 or 2 such questions in the paper, it is not a bad thing, it challenges those who are good in maths, and really shows how a seemingly difficult or impossible question can be very easily solved by drawing a simple model. If we expect the teacher to have given similar questions in class before the test, it really becomes pointless and makes learning maths much more painful as the children would think they need to remember the methods for all different kinds of questions.

Just saw this post, and at the risk of embarrassing myself, this question can be solved using the guess and check method, which is taught in P1. I am not saying that P1 student would know how to solve this question, as fractions are not taught in P1. Is this a P5 Math question?

What I did:
Alan walks 1/30 of the distance between two towns in 1 min.
Eric walks 1/45 of the distance in 1 min.

Since they will meet at some point, the distance that A walks plus the distance that E walks must equal to 1 whole. After trying 15 and 20 mins respectively, it is clear that the answer is somewhere between 15 and 20. At 18 mins, A has walked 18/30 (3/5) of the distance while E has walked 18/45 (2/5) of the distance.

Is the above method acceptable? Or will take too long to derive the answer?

[cherryc]

Totally agree with you, tutormom. I don’t know in future how many of these tuitioned artificial intelligent people will be our country leader , politicians , bankers , lawyers or doctors. And the truly brainy ones missing out the good programs that will bring our country to greater heights.


Most of my friends came from poor to middle income families when we were young , we studied hard in school , the teachers taught well and we had fair exams and a fair chance in life to make it. It saddens me to think that somewhere now there are kids who are like me when I was young cant make it far now because of the current education system. I enjoyed my Hwa Chong days and none of us got in with a single tuition.