Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)

[Chenonceau]

BeContented:

Hi Chen.....
sometimes I wonder.....what should the school do. What do I want?

DS school sets rather easy paper....so easy that you find >5 score 100% (even at P5/P6) & many others in range of 90-99 in his class. But from 3rd/4th class, you start seeing in range of 50s and failures...some horribly low. So should the school set even easier questions so that more can pass? Doing so, you'll increase the number of students scoring high too.....but is that a true reflection of the standard? When I asked DS teacher how to improve, reply was \"he is very good already, no need to do anything\". Worried and unhappy that school standard is so low, that was how I was prompted to look for better school cos I know DS had lot more potential & can excel given the right 'environment' But I tried once....he didn't get offered and I left it as it is, I hope it's the right decision.

PS : While he is scoring in his current school, when doing top school exam papers, there's gap of 10-20 marks.

Younger DD managed to transfer to a better sch which I believe is known to set tough papers. Come every exam, I start to worry for her......and get to hear all the complaints about the school for setting such tough papers.

So in all honesty.....that balance to set paper of right standard is very hard to find. We are dealing with whole spectrum of kids with different abilities.....what is right for you may not be for me. It's not easy to get the right balance and please everyone. :love:

That is why I don't give feedback to the school. I give feedback to MOE. Since when did I blame the school? If you want the list of improvements for MOE, I've shared it here... http://petunialee.blogspot.com/2012/03/world-class-but-also-barely-literate.html

You don't think better textbooks are a good idea because some schools will always give better notes. You don't think that creating a national database for Teachers to share resources is a good idea because schools simply won't share.

If everyone had your attitude, mankind would never have
(1) invented the iPAD
(2) invented planes
(3) invented chemotherapy
(4) invented vaccinations

Anything in life that is worth doing has obstacles in its way. If all you can see is the \"Can't be done\"... and \"Schools can't do anything\", then well... we will never progress will we?

You have problem, with kids in different schools, that cannot be solved at school level. MOE must step in to decrease the variance in quality amongst schools, no? If the differences between your son's school and your DD's school is less stark, your problem disappears. What I am arguing for also solves your problem, no?

[Chenonceau]

BeContented:

Sigh, so what do we want? Communist society where everyone have same level playing field? :scratchhead: :scared:

Don't exaggerate. No one mentioned Communism. In designing organisations and management processes, consultants are mindful of market homogeneity.

Look at the food chains... Fiesta, McDonalds, Coffee Bean... they are aware that wherever they set up shop in Singapore, there is a homogeneous market. People in Ang Mo Kio are not different than those in Toa Payoh or Eunos. As such, they hold their branding and product quality constant. However, you've got places like Iggy's... a ONE and ONLY... they don't serve the mass market. They DIFFERENTIATE themselves to serve a very specific clientele.

Now, we are talking about mass education no? Not the Iggy's type of exclusivity? We're looking at a Fiesta business model right because we can't we say that cohort populations in Toa Payoh are smarter than those in Ang Mo Kio? Can we say that cohorts in Bedok Ave 1 are smarter than those in Bedok Ave 6? Can we say that cohorts in Bukit Timah are smarter than those in neighbourhood schools.

We cannot. Therefore, we have a homogeneous market. MOE's business processes are set up in such a way as to encourage DIFFERENTIATION. Such business processes only make sense when you have heterogeneous markets i.e., different types of kids in different parts of Singapore.

Australia and USA, because they are big... do actually have heterogeneous populations. Richer people stay together in a neighbourhood. Hispanics stay together. Some neighbourhoods have plenty of Irish... Italians. Singapore is too small for such a high degree of variance in practices amongst schools. Even NYPS takes in alumni who may be living in Woodlands. A child from RGPS and her mother come to me for weekly Motivation coaching. This child is FAILING EVERY SUBJECT. They live in Woodlands.

Why are we aping the West in allowing for full autonomy (and therefore variance between schools) to serve vastly different population profiles when actually the populations from neighbourhood to neighbourhood are not markedly different? The business processes at MOE level are not coherent with the needs of a homogeneous market. No one is targetting schools.

Maybe you don't understand me. This is just some management stuff that most people are not interested in and may not understand. That is why I've never tried to even explain. MOE wants to give schools as much autonomy as possible to react to local needs when actually cohorts don't differ much from Bedok Ave 6 to Eunos Street 14.

Communism? The consistency across Apple stores demonstrates a cutting edge that is riding a global wave of capitalism.

[BeContented]

Chenonceau:

BeContented:

Hi Chen.....
sometimes I wonder.....what should the school do. What do I want?

DS school sets rather easy paper....so easy that you find >5 score 100% (even at P5/P6) & many others in range of 90-99 in his class. But from 3rd/4th class, you start seeing in range of 50s and failures...some horribly low. So should the school set even easier questions so that more can pass? Doing so, you'll increase the number of students scoring high too.....but is that a true reflection of the standard? When I asked DS teacher how to improve, reply was \"he is very good already, no need to do anything\". Worried and unhappy that school standard is so low, that was how I was prompted to look for better school cos I know DS had lot more potential & can excel given the right 'environment' But I tried once....he didn't get offered and I left it as it is, I hope it's the right decision.

PS : While he is scoring in his current school, when doing top school exam papers, there's gap of 10-20 marks.

Younger DD managed to transfer to a better sch which I believe is known to set tough papers. Come every exam, I start to worry for her......and get to hear all the complaints about the school for setting such tough papers.

So in all honesty.....that balance to set paper of right standard is very hard to find. We are dealing with whole spectrum of kids with different abilities.....what is right for you may not be for me. It's not easy to get the right balance and please everyone. :love:

That is why I don't give feedback to the school. I give feedback to MOE. Since when did I blame the school? If you want the list of improvements for MOE, I've shared it here... http://petunialee.blogspot.com/2012/03/world-class-but-also-barely-literate.html

You don't think better textbooks are a good idea because some schools will always give better notes. You don't think that creating a national database for Teachers to share resources is a good idea because schools simply won't share.

If everyone had your attitude, mankind would never have
(1) invented the iPAD
(2) invented planes
(3) invented chemotherapy
(4) invented vaccinations

Anything in life that is worth doing has obstacles in its way. If all you can see is the \"Can't be done\"... and \"Schools can't do anything\", then well... we will never progress will we?

You have problem, with kids in different schools, that cannot be solved at school level. MOE must step in to decrease the variance in quality amongst schools, no? If the differences between your son's school and your DD's school is less stark, your problem disappears. What I am arguing for also solves your problem, no?

Errr.....I have never once disagree on providing better textbooks or sharing resources, in fact I support them. I have only tried to point out that doing all these is a good start, but we need to be realistic cos' it may not mean problem is solved totally, but at least it's a starting point. And of course, we need to be fair to MOE.....the issues do not just lie with them alone......

[Chenonceau]

BeContented:

Chenonceau:

[quote=\"BeContented\"]
Hi Chen.....
sometimes I wonder.....what should the school do. What do I want?

DS school sets rather easy paper....so easy that you find >5 score 100% (even at P5/P6) & many others in range of 90-99 in his class. But from 3rd/4th class, you start seeing in range of 50s and failures...some horribly low. So should the school set even easier questions so that more can pass? Doing so, you'll increase the number of students scoring high too.....but is that a true reflection of the standard? When I asked DS teacher how to improve, reply was \"he is very good already, no need to do anything\". Worried and unhappy that school standard is so low, that was how I was prompted to look for better school cos I know DS had lot more potential & can excel given the right 'environment' But I tried once....he didn't get offered and I left it as it is, I hope it's the right decision.

PS : While he is scoring in his current school, when doing top school exam papers, there's gap of 10-20 marks.

Younger DD managed to transfer to a better sch which I believe is known to set tough papers. Come every exam, I start to worry for her......and get to hear all the complaints about the school for setting such tough papers.

So in all honesty.....that balance to set paper of right standard is very hard to find. We are dealing with whole spectrum of kids with different abilities.....what is right for you may not be for me. It's not easy to get the right balance and please everyone. :love:

That is why I don't give feedback to the school. I give feedback to MOE. Since when did I blame the school? If you want the list of improvements for MOE, I've shared it here... http://petunialee.blogspot.com/2012/03/world-class-but-also-barely-literate.html

You don't think better textbooks are a good idea because some schools will always give better notes. You don't think that creating a national database for Teachers to share resources is a good idea because schools simply won't share.

If everyone had your attitude, mankind would never have
(1) invented the iPAD
(2) invented planes
(3) invented chemotherapy
(4) invented vaccinations

Anything in life that is worth doing has obstacles in its way. If all you can see is the \"Can't be done\"... and \"Schools can't do anything\", then well... we will never progress will we?

You have problem, with kids in different schools, that cannot be solved at school level. MOE must step in to decrease the variance in quality amongst schools, no? If the differences between your son's school and your DD's school is less stark, your problem disappears. What I am arguing for also solves your problem, no?

Errr.....I have never once disagree on providing better textbooks or sharing resources, in fact I support them. I have only tried to point out that doing all these is a good start, but we need to be realistic cos' it may not mean problem is solved totally, but at least it's a starting point. And of course, we need to be fair to MOE.....the issues do not just lie with them alone......[/quote]There is nothing to be realistic about when there is no start. Has MOE acknowledged the need for better textbooks and a national database? No. So, why are we jumping the gun to say we are unrealistic? At the very least, if they BEGIN to do ONE out of the list of NINE suggestions, I will be happy.

What gives you the idea that I am being unrealistic?

It's not like I sit here and criticize without trying to suggest anything. Friend, I have written RESEARCH proposals, met MOE in private... to try and help. What makes you think I am unrealistic? I put time and effort into this in good faith. I can't be bothered to contribute to those silly threads where people bash Zoe Tay, foreigners... blah... But THIS... this matters.

They haven't even started on any of the recommendations... so no one knows if they'll work. Worse, they refuse to acknowledge it is AT ALL their problem. According to HSK and MOE, it's all parents' fault.

Hence, the talk of being unrealistic is premature. Try first... and then tell me it doesn't work. Rome wasn't built in a day. I don't expect a magic bullet. But babe... they haven't started even!!

As for whose fault is it? It's EVERYONE'S fault eh? I've said that time and again. BUT MOE is still the logical party to LEAD us through to a solution. If not, what is MOE for? We don't need it. We only need parents.

Oooops! :oops: I'm getting excited again. Forgive.

[coast]

Chenonceau:

BeContented:

Sigh, so what do we want? Communist society where everyone have same level playing field? :scratchhead: :scared:

Don't exaggerate. No one mentioned Communism. In designing organisations and management processes, consultants are mindful of market homogeneity.


MOE wants to give schools as much autonomy as possible to react to local needs when actually cohorts don't differ much from Bedok Ave 6 to Eunos Street 14.

Hi Chenonceau, I think we might be the minority here that believe the cohort doesn't differ much.

I am not sure if it is a standard that all schools practise - streaming kids into the best 2 classes after their P2. Well, MOE and the schools who practise this certainly believe there is a need. Many parents support the streaming too (surprise surprise). If the objective of the streaming is to allow for better class-ratio and better teachers (e.g., proven track record) for the weaker boys, I will reluctantly support the idea. Sadly, many schools cater the 'best' resources to the top 2 classes, even with different materials for the different classes. Why? I am not sure what KPIs a school is accountable for, but publishing the top PSLE scorers every year is likely a key reason the schools are putting their best resources for their top 2 classes.

Certainly there are things that MOE can do and it doesn't require much efforts (e.g., band-based sec school admission rather than individualistic T-scores, publish the complete PSLE past years' papers, quality materials accessible by all schools/classes, ...). Our PM wants to improve on social mobility and he knows education plays an important role. I see many ways to achieve better social mobility but why is MOE not responding? At least explain the reason(s) why they are not implementing certain key suggestions like those above.

[Chenonceau]

coast:

Chenonceau:

[quote=\"BeContented\"]

Sigh, so what do we want? Communist society where everyone have same level playing field? :scratchhead: :scared:

Don't exaggerate. No one mentioned Communism. In designing organisations and management processes, consultants are mindful of market homogeneity.


MOE wants to give schools as much autonomy as possible to react to local needs when actually cohorts don't differ much from Bedok Ave 6 to Eunos Street 14.

Hi Chenonceau, I think we might be the minority here that believe the cohort doesn't differ much.

I am not sure if it is a standard that all schools practise - streaming kids into the best 2 classes after their P2. Well, MOE and the schools who practise this certainly believe there is a need. Many parents support the streaming too (surprise surprise). If the objective of the streaming is to allow for better class-ratio and better teachers (e.g., proven track record) for the weaker boys, I will reluctantly support the idea. Sadly, many schools cater the 'best' resources to the top 2 classes, even with different materials for the different classes. Why? I am not sure what KPIs a school is accountable for, but publishing the top PSLE scorers every year is likely a key reason the schools are putting their best resources for their top 2 classes.

Certainly there are things that MOE can do and it doesn't require much efforts (e.g., band-based sec school admission rather than individualistic T-scores, publish the complete PSLE past years' papers, quality materials accessible by all schools/classes, ...). Our PM wants to improve on social mobility and he knows education plays an important role. I see many ways to achieve better social mobility but why is MOE not responding? At least explain the reason(s) why they are not implementing certain key suggestions like those above.[/quote]They may differ WITHIN the school. They don't differ between neighbourhoods in Ang Mo Kio Ave 4 and Ang Mo Kio Ave 1. Yet schools are different in quality sometimes within a few km of each other.

Of course, there will be some who will say that education is a people dependent business and hence, we must live with the stark variance in quality between schools. Which business is not people driven? If Apple stores can strive to maintain a consistent presence right down to the floating staircase... across outlets in the WORLD... what's so difficult about maintaining consistency across schools on an island like ours?

We DON'T NEED stark differentiation amongst schools because Singaporean children are Singaporean children whether or not in Changi or Yishun. We are not big like the USA. Why must we copy the USA system in everything, including management of schools?

[coast]

Chenonceau:

coast:

[quote=\"Chenonceau\"]

Don't exaggerate. No one mentioned Communism. In designing organisations and management processes, consultants are mindful of market homogeneity.


MOE wants to give schools as much autonomy as possible to react to local needs when actually cohorts don't differ much from Bedok Ave 6 to Eunos Street 14.

Hi Chenonceau, I think we might be the minority here that believe the cohort doesn't differ much.

I am not sure if it is a standard that all schools practise - streaming kids into the best 2 classes after their P2. Well, MOE and the schools who practise this certainly believe there is a need. Many parents support the streaming too (surprise surprise). If the objective of the streaming is to allow for better class-ratio and better teachers (e.g., proven track record) for the weaker boys, I will reluctantly support the idea. Sadly, many schools cater the 'best' resources to the top 2 classes, even with different materials for the different classes. Why? I am not sure what KPIs a school is accountable for, but publishing the top PSLE scorers every year is likely a key reason the schools are putting their best resources for their top 2 classes.

Certainly there are things that MOE can do and it doesn't require much efforts (e.g., band-based sec school admission rather than individualistic T-scores, publish the complete PSLE past years' papers, quality materials accessible by all schools/classes, ...). Our PM wants to improve on social mobility and he knows education plays an important role. I see many ways to achieve better social mobility but why is MOE not responding? At least explain the reason(s) why they are not implementing certain key suggestions like those above.

They may differ WITHIN the school. They don't differ between neighbourhoods in Ang Mo Kio Ave 4 and Ang Mo Kio Ave 1. Yet schools are different in quality sometimes withing a few km of each other.[/quote]Why differ within the school? :?

There are many reasons why a kid does or does not do well in exams. By streaming at end of P2, we have already started various obstalces for the kids (not in the top 2 classes) to do well academically. Some parents (and the kids) also start believing the kids are not 'strong' academically, all from the age of 8.

[Chenonceau]

coast:

Why differ within the school? :?

There are many reasons why a kid does or does not do well in exams. By streaming at end of P2, we have already started various obstalces for the kids (not in the top 2 classes) to do well academically. Some parents (and the kids) also start believing the kids are not 'strong' academically, all from the age of 8.

I teach. Each student is different. They learn differently. They have different learning styles. This does not mean I am FOR streaming. But since I teach I know I must engage each student DIFFERENTLY. The whole population mix is same from one school to another. But in each class, each child is different. They need practice in different areas. They have talents in different areas.

[coast]

coast:

Why differ within the school? :?

There are many reasons why a kid does or does not do well in exams. By streaming at end of P2, we have already started various obstalces for the kids (not in the top 2 classes) to do well academically. Some parents (and the kids) also start believing the kids are not 'strong' academically, all from the age of 8.

Chenonceau:

I teach. Each student is different. They learn differently. They have different learning styles. This does not mean I am FOR streaming. But since I teach I know I must engage each student DIFFERENTLY. The whole population mix is same from one school to another. But in each class, each child is different. They need practice in different areas. They have talents in different areas.

This is a self-evident truth even for parents with more than one child.

I agree

Chenonceau:

I am not particularly keen to spend time disagreeing with you. If we bicker amongst ourselves, we will lose focus and MOE will wiggle its way out. So, stop trying to point out the minor areas where we disagree? If you are in it with me, then well... let's just focus on what we agree on. And push that.

As in my earlier post, I actually agree with you that the cohort doesn't differ much but I feel we might be the minority. I pointed out P2 streaming to highlight the fact that MOE and schools might not believe in that. Sorry if I did not make my points clear.

Chenonceau:

There must be start somewhere and if we focus on issues where we don't agree on, there will be no momentum. That is why I have chosen to push textbooks and national sharing database. I don't have the bandwidth to push for every different thing that means something to everyone. I am also not here to disagree with people. I'm here to push a consistent line - better textbooks and national database.

Even the fiercest detractors support the call for better textbooks and a national database.

:udawoman:

I think we were the early advocators. One year has gone.

Yes, I do support this!

I tried to create topics and seek out voters to see how many for Vs against a view. But I realised not many people vote in KSP. So though I see the high % of votes on certain views, I am none the wiser if it's indeed the majority.

[Chenonceau]

Coast... you threads have been great blessings. I am so glad you're here with me.


:thankyou:
:udawoman: