Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)

[sunflower]

Chenonceau:

sunflower:

NYPS has about 3 or 4? GEP classes. I would think that they form quite a significant amount of that 40% who score above 25X. Already some of the brightest from all over Singapore (whether poor or rich) congregegate in this school, and other GEP schools as well.

I don't dare say NYPS doesn't teach well. I won't know for sure. I do know they've great notes and very nice practice worksheets which points to an overall quality of education that is not present in my DS' school... and some other schools.

I don't deny the teachers could have taught well. But putting things into perspective, what I'm trying to say is that on top of teachers' influence, the overall quality of students in that school where there is a significant amount of GEP students could have contributed to the large % of students scoring above 25X, as compared to other schools. But this doesn't translate that all other schools are not giving good notes or practice worksheets to their students. Quite a number do, like my friends’ and my children's schools.

[Chenonceau]

3Boys:

Chenonceau:

[quote=\"3Boys\"]
It is artificial and it is fake, it will not stand the true tests of character and intelligence, and therefore you have nothing to worry about at all.

Of all you wrote... I only agree with this. It could well be that employers will steer clear of the top school graduates in future because they know such grads expect a lotta help at work.

Chenonceau,
I am completely with you on equal 'opportunity', but are you so sure that what you are proposing will really make any kind of impact at all? You have dug your heels in and made it as if it were gospel, to the point that you would oust the g'ment on account of it, but as you have seen, I frankly have serious doubts. And by agreeing with me above, to some extent you are admitting it really doesn't matter, no? Costs matter my dear, we will see how Finland fares, as their economy built on Nokia starts to suffer along with the company's fortunes. --> http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-05-17/news/31749254_1_finland-s-nokia-nokia-oyj-business-growth[/quote]Hmmmmm.... I am pretty sure that better textbooks will make a difference to how kids study. I am pretty sure that equal access to good notes, worksheets, videos will help kids study with less stress. I am pretty sure that a national database for Teachers to share resources will help Teachers.

Ousting the govt is a rather strong term to use in a BE where ONE seat is in question. Are you using emotional artifice to polarise things again?

[sunflower]

Chenonceau:

sunflower:

[quote=\"Chenonceau\"]

Acknowledging that one is not perfect is not an excuse for not improving obvious flaws. Small classes unable to cope with a skills heavy syllabus. Lousy textbooks. School that over compete with each other. We don't need to look to Finland. We need only listen to parents.

Well, to overhaul our education system, there's a thing or two to learn from best practices of other countries.

Yes? This is a self-evident truth to my mind. But well... did you not say that other systems also have problems... so, you still wanna learn from them? China has 60 per class. Finnish people commit suicide. So how?

I don't think I want an overhaul. I would like a reasoned review... not defensive press statements. I would like better textbooks and a national database for Teachers (as you suggested). I'm not sure this constitutes and overhaul.[/quote]Yes, education system in other countries have their problems too, it's not all perfect. That's why I say to learn a thing or 2 from best practices of the education system in some countries and adapt to our unique situation in Singapore, not to take/implement it in its whole entirety.

[sunflower]

Chenonceau:

sunflower:

This is pretty bad, wonder what school is that, or is this an isolated case? That's why it's important to know your child's potential, instead of relying on the school's results to determine/label your child. Quoting from Shop & Save: Mothers know best! My own experience with my DD1: None of her school teachers discover her talent in a certain area, in fact, she quite consistently got a \"B\" for that subject. However, I was quite confident of her inert ability and supported her in that area. The final outcome proved me right. Oh, don't get me wrong, it was not tuition or teaching from me. What I did was appropriate guidance and correct course of action.

Why would we even allow the school to make us believe that our child is poor in a particular subject, especially if the school gives exams that are ridiculously difficult with unrealistically high standard? It is not even a true reflection of the actual capacity of the child in a national exam.

:goodpost:

:thankyou:

[Chenonceau]

sunflower:

Chenonceau:

[quote=\"sunflower\"]
NYPS has about 3 or 4? GEP classes. I would think that they form quite a significant amount of that 40% who score above 25X. Already some of the brightest from all over Singapore (whether poor or rich) congregegate in this school, and other GEP schools as well.

I don't dare say NYPS doesn't teach well. I won't know for sure. I do know they've great notes and very nice practice worksheets which points to an overall quality of education that is not present in my DS' school... and some other schools.

I don't deny the teachers could have taught well. But putting things into perspective, what I'm trying to say is that on top of teachers' influence, the overall quality of students in that school where there is a significant amount of GEP students could have contributed to the large % of students scoring above 25X, as compared to other schools. But this doesn't translate that all other schools are not giving good notes or practice worksheets to their students. Quite a number do, like my friends’ and my children's schools.[/quote]The large % of 25X does not demonstrate that other schools don't give out notes. Of course it does not.

However, that NYPS gives out good notes... is a reflection of the quality it provides. These notes should contribute to helping NYPS get a large % of 25X. Whether every school in Singapore gives out good notes is a matter of debate. My DS' school doesn't. Some of friends face that problem too.

[Chenonceau]

sunflower:

Yes, education system in other countries have their problems too, it's not all perfect. That's why I say to learn a thing or 2 from best practices of the education system in some countries and adapt to our unique situation in Singapore, not to take/implement it in its whole entirety.

So we agree? We need to look at ourselves and brainstorm? We need to also look at others to enrich our perspectives? Shall we stop discussing this now since we agree?

[sunflower]

Chenonceau:

sunflower:

Regarding class size, of course it would benefit all if class size is reduced. But with that number of students in class, our school fees would definitely have to go up, or a significant amount of the budget, in the expense of others, would have to go to education. In some countries, class size in private schools are around that, and parents pay thousands of dollars to get their children into these schools. Already in our independent IP/IB schools with class size of about 20-25, schools fees are really expensive, as compared to normal government schools. There are also many other things to consider, the no. and size of the schools to be built (hopefully we do not build and close down after a few years due to insufficient intake), the no. of teachers that needed to be hired (do we want more foreigners to fill in the gaps?), the population trend etc etc. Taking everything into consideration, I'm not so sure whether it's sustainable.

Someone told me some schools in China have about 60 children in a class. If they are able to maintain discipline and students learn in that kind of environment, we are already very lucky as compared to them.

In fact, I know of some schools that already have 2 form teachers per class to support each other. With the right kind of support and no unnecessary admin and committee work, I'm sure teachers should be able to dedicate their time to the students, teaching, knowing and inspiring them.

Hmmmm... I'm not really interested in the constraints. The fact is, the MOE put in a skills heavy syllabus which requires practice and individualized feedback to properly teach. This means smaller classes. If MOE has no capacity to teach TO the syllabus, then...

(1) Don't pretend education is largely free OR
(2) Keep the syllabus manageable for itself

In the current reality, parents spend a lot of money / time to help schools educate. I have to re-mark every single English compo marked by DS teacher. He did so few compos last year in school that if I gave him no practice at home, he would have just been borderline... and this is a boy who can handle Edgar Allan Poe.

Tuition has become a necessity.

Well, whether tuition is a necessity remains debatable. Quoting from what I've mentioned previously, I think there are a few parameters to consider.
1. Is the school adequate in their teaching?
2. What is the TRUE potential of our children?
3. What are our expectations with regards to our children's academic performance?
We will then decide, based on the above, what course of action to take, which includes intervening and to teach ourselves, outsourcing (tuition) or to do nothing at all. Each parent will have their own decision, within their limited capacity (either in terms of their knowledge or financial ability). We will respect their decision.

[Chenonceau]

3Boys:

Chenonceau:

(2) There is no business in the world that does not depend on humans. EVEN in industries that rely heavily on robotics and equipment, the quality of service or products rely on humans. If MNCs can ensure consistency worldwide, what's so difficult about putting in processes to ensure consistency in Singapore schools? If restaurant chains (very dependent on humans) can ensure consistent quality from one end of Singapore to another... why is it impossible for schools to have a basic core consistency?

Chenonceau,
I would like to see data showing that MNCs have a higher level of internal consistency than MOE, or that MOE's level of, to quote, 'basic core consistency' is inadequate. Even if we were to have a core 'curriculum' or reference material available, who is to say that the private sector could not then do even better, but at much higher cost? Who could then access that? Private tuition already offers 1;1 teaching, should MOE look to replicate that then, so that the less well off are not disadvantaged? In the search for absolute equality, that is the logical end point, is it not?

:? Data?

Ummm... Ichiban Sushi serves the same menu whether in Toa Payoh or ...

Ummm... the design and quality of a Louis Vuitton bag whether you buy in China or in France?

Ummm... DHL sorting centres' service standards worldwide...

Ummm... McKinsey when serving a single global client in different locations needs to be mindful of the same terms of engagement... and draws from the same knowledge management database.

[Chenonceau]

sunflower:

Well, whether tuition is a necessity remains debatable. Quoting from what I've mentioned previously, I think there are a few parameters to consider.

1. Is the school adequate in their teaching?

Should not all schools be adequate in their teaching? If the system worked fine... why is this a needed parameter? If even one school is inadequate in teaching, tuition becomes a necessity? What if many schools are inadequate in their teaching? Would this not mean that tuition is a necessity for a larger population?

What if most schools cannot manage to teach to PSLE standards (even though Teachers try), would that not mean a multi-million dollar tuition industry that is alive and well... and booming?

[sunflower]

oxyleo:

sunflower:

Why are we so stressed up? Is it because we aim high and expect our children to get into one of those elite schools? I think our children should try their best, but not in the expense of their childhood. Let them take the lead, according to each of their own capabilities and talents (may or may not be in the academic arena). I've heard of late bloomers (who failed on several occasions in primary school's exams/tests) but who got 6A1s in a neighbourhood secondary school and got into his dream JC. That poor chap had tuitions after tuitions, trying to keep up with the primary school's high standards, but became the top scorer in the \"O\" levels of that secondary school, and continue to top in JC.


There is no one perfect education system, just like there is no ONE perfect government/political party. It is how we, the people, make the best out of it. Something to ponder: Finland's education system has been considered as one of the world's best by many, but look at their citizen's suicide rate, which is also
one of the world's highest (within top 10).

http://www.fathersforlife.org/health/who_suicide_rates.htm
http://www.aneki.com/suicide.html

Hi Sunflower,
Like you, I too used to think most parents were just too hung up on the whole education process. I too have yet to personally experience the bad effects of the system, as my son is only in P2 this year, and thus far has been blessed with good teachers and an empathizing school environment. But I have kept an open mind throughout, observed and asked around. Many of my friends with older children, have alluded that there is more than meets the eye, especially once you fall into the less than Best class. Bear in mind these friends are also not the typical \"sign-up for Genius enrichment class at 3 years old, or sign up for tuition for every subject possible 2 years ahead of cohort\" kind of people. They are the more relaxed sort of parent, myself included, believing in taking things easy, seeing how the child fits into the greater scheme of things sorta people. But they are now bearing the brunt of the harsh reality. In a way, it's like the very popular book years back, called \"Who Moved my Cheese\". Some time along the way, the cheese got moved, and the least KS parents didn't even know it.

I found this thread on KS Parents:
ST%20My%20Points%20-%206%20A1s%204A2s%20can%27t%20get%20into%20Hwa%20Chong%0AModerators%3A%20ChiefKiasu,%20ClassMonitor

This probably explains how the dynamics of our education system has changed over the years. Competition intensified further after the IP got introduced circa 2004. Dream JCs like Hwa Chong and Raffles are no longer meant for late bloomers.

Yes, the cheese has moved. With the introduction of the IP, I feel more sorry for the late bloomers rather than the poor but bright. Somehow, the bright ones will either be streamed into GEP and provided with all the opportunites, or streamed into top classes within the school, where they would largely be given opportunites to stretch themselves further.