Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)
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Chenonceau:
Hmmmm... I'm not really interested in the constraints. The fact is, the MOE put in a skills heavy syllabus which requires practice and individualized feedback to properly teach. This means smaller classes. If MOE has no capacity to teach TO the syllabus, then...
Regarding class size, of course it would benefit all if class size is reduced. But with that number of students in class, our school fees would definitely have to go up, or a significant amount of the budget, in the expense of others, would have to go to education. In some countries, class size in private schools are around that, and parents pay thousands of dollars to get their children into these schools. Already in our independent IP/IB schools with class size of about 20-25, schools fees are really expensive, as compared to normal government schools. There are also many other things to consider, the no. and size of the schools to be built (hopefully we do not build and close down after a few years due to insufficient intake), the no. of teachers that needed to be hired (do we want more foreigners to fill in the gaps?), the population trend etc etc. Taking everything into consideration, I'm not so sure whether it's sustainable.sunflower:
[quote=\"Chenonceau\"]
Okay. Reduce class size to 15-20.
Someone told me some schools in China have about 60 children in a class. If they are able to maintain discipline and students learn in that kind of environment, we are already very lucky as compared to them.
In fact, I know of some schools that already have 2 form teachers per class to support each other. With the right kind of support and no unnecessary admin and committee work, I'm sure teachers should be able to dedicate their time to the students, teaching, knowing and inspiring them.
(1) Don't pretend education is largely free OR
(2) Keep the syllabus manageable for itself[/quote]In any change of policy, the ministries, and in this case, the MOE would have to decide on the best course of action by thinking through carefully, weighing the pros and cons as well as considering all aspects as itâll impact its citizens. I donât think they want to implement something hastily only to later discover costly implications that lead to more problems, like whatâs happening now with all those policies initiated by MBT. -
I do not disagree that thereâs a variance in the schoolâs standard and how differently schools are run in Singapore. But how can we expect MOE to dictate how all schools should be run up to a âTâ? Education is largely human determinant.
If weâre saying some schools set tough questions even before imparting the relevant knowledge, I would say there are also other schools who test reasonably, according to their studentsâ ability, and trying to mirror PSLE standards. MOE provides the framework, but principals have full control in the running of the school, and the way they run a school is determined by their education beliefs and their priorities.
The difference in standard in schools and their exams has long prevailed since our time, but why didnât anyone complain that PSLE papers were very difficult or easy during our time?..or that this or that school set tough papers? That was because school exam papers were not published and widely available. Ignorance is bliss. During our time, there was nothing to compare, we didnât know so tuition did not seem necessary.
Please do not stress ourselves unnecessarily by looking at top school papers. Now we look at top school papers and imagine PSLE paper is full of challenging questions, which from my past 2 yearsâ observation, was not the case. Every time, it was just that 1 or 2 questions that were highlighted. People were not happy because they spent so much on tuition and yet cannot score full marks. Think of it rationally, MOE would not set papers as difficult as NYPS (where more than half the paper consists of challenging questions). They have to cater to the majority average students. If not, nearly the whole P6 cohort in Singapore will fail. -
I personally do not think just having textbooks FULL of information is an all-cure. Times have changed and exam questions are set differently from what we were used to. In the past, if we can remember and regurgitate, we score, and textbooks provided us with all the necessary information. At this age and time, with knowledge explosion, we need to know how to process and use information from all sources. In other words, we aim to nurture the next generation of thinkers.
Now, PSLE questions are set differently from our time, where they test whether students are able to assimilate knowledge and apply. Hence, teachers seriously need extensive training in order to deliver whatâs expected in this new era. Simply dishing out information loaded textbooks is not enough. Teachers need to teach students HOW to use this information and HOW to further acquire more information and expand their knowledge base.
Regarding textbooks, Iâve read of an education model where children do not have any pre-printed textbooks in school. They learnt and remembered more as they created their own unique textbooks. At the same time, childrenâs creativity and problem solving skills were developed and enhanced. Pretty impressive I must say, when I saw photos of their work. I read it some time back so couldnât remember off hand what model was that, but I do not think this can work in Singapore, given the current culture of extensive testing. -
I do agree that we need to revamp our education system. I was just trying to offer views from another perspective, so that we can look at things in a more holistic manner. There are bound to be differences in our opinions because of our different experience that shape our thinking.
Before Teach Less Learn More (TLLM) policy, textbooks have traditionally been content heavy. Many complain about so much to remember and syllabus too heavy. Well, there was a review and the syllabus was reduced and they introduce this TLLM. Textbooks were written to reflect this policy, thatâs why the much reduced content. Although much less information is printed, I remember textbooks do provide internet links for students to further research on the topic.
Many schools do put in extras such as Onsponge and other assessment books in their booklist. Others such as my DD1 neighbourhood school ordered other assessment books or gave out supplementary notes to their students. What I can say is that most schools try their best to supplement the textbooks.
OK, what Iâm discontent about is the implementation of this TLLM. I feel teachers were not well prepared/trained. Every school have their own interpretation and each administer what they thought TLLM means, which can be quite different between schools. Moreover, the way PSLE questions were set did not adjust to the change, and questions set seems to be still in the content heavy style.
With the way it is, personally, I do not think MOE would do much changes to the textbooks, unless thereâs a major review/change of syllabus or the scraping or tweaking of the TLLM policy. This teaching methodology is just not suitable for primary school children, where they are still building their foundation. TLLM is only good for later stages, where knowledge is built and developed upon that foundation.
Moreover, the change in the government management style into the business model since the mid 1990s created more harm than good. Instead of serving the people, different ministries/department and for that matter, schools compete with each other to âshow offâ, to meet KPIs. Pretty sad, everybody in the rat race and lost focus. This resulted in the competiveness even amongst teachers. With the change of the Education minster, I hope there will be a change in the mindset of how schools should be evaluated. Education is about learning and sharing, to collectively build our next generation of people who can move our nation forward.
What I personally feel for MOE to consider:
1. Iâve written this in one of my earlier post, that there should be a centralised online database/forum where teachers can contribute and have access to teaching materials created by teachers and posted in the MOE teachersâ portal/forum. All teachers would have the password to access such sharing of information, where they can comment, share resources, post questions and basically help each other. It is up to the teachersâ discretion whether to use/modify or give out the notes based on their studentsâ needs.
2. Due to the very specialized knowledge and skills required of the various subjects, especially in the upper primary level, I would suggest that teachers be trained to be subject specialist for a particular subject. Mid to upper primary school teachers shouldnât be teaching English, Math and Science all lump together, which may create situations such as what Chenonceauâs son encountered, whose teacher may not be competent to teach English but maybe very good in Math or Science.
3. Unnecessary admin/committee work should be eliminated for teachers to focus on their teaching. (In this aspect, I can see that MOE is slowly working towards this by providing more support staff. But still, more can be done.) Teachers then would have more time to mark studentsâ work properly, to prepare quality teaching materials and to upgrade themselves professionally.
4. Holistically speaking, MOE should seriously review the whole education landscape, to look at successful education models of other countries and take in a thing or two. Should we even have a national exam such as the PSLE, or should the age be adjusted so that itâs fairer to boys, who generally mature later and to cater to late bloomers? Or even review how scores should be calculated, so that it helps/identifies people who may be particularly strong in certain subjects/areas, in order to nurture them, not to penalize them just because they are not equally strong in ALL subjects. -
sunflower:
I do not disagree that thereâs a variance in the schoolâs standard and how differently schools are run in Singapore. But how can we expect MOE to dictate how all schools should be run up to a âTâ? Education is largely human determinant.
Again... same comment. Many MNCs have found a way to maintain consistency in businesses with human determinant. So yes... this is what I expect. Just watch them and learn.sunflower:
It should not be left to the whim of Principals. There should be a coherent philosophy that unites all schools. The schools cannot just function by Principal alone. They need to take into account a diligently thought through and well-crafted philosophy that underpins the nation's education.If weâre saying some schools set tough questions even before imparting the relevant knowledge, I would say there are also other schools who test reasonably, according to their studentsâ ability, and trying to mirror PSLE standards. MOE provides the framework, but principals have full control in the running of the school, and the way they run a school is determined by their education beliefs and their priorities.
sunflower:
Ummmm... my DS' school sets equally hard papers even though the school appears nowhere in a top school paper collection. I don't need the top school papers to panic. This does not mean that the school teaches to that standard (nor do we have a GEP cohort). The response is... \"The bright ones naturally know.\"The difference in standard in schools and their exams has long prevailed since our time, but why didnât anyone complain that PSLE papers were very difficult or easy during our time?...or that this or that school set tough papers? That was because school exam papers were not published and widely available. Ignorance is bliss. During our time, there was nothing to compare, we didnât know so tuition did not seem necessary.
Please do not stress ourselves unnecessarily by looking at top school papers. Now we look at top school papers and imagine PSLE paper is full of challenging questions, which from my past 2 yearsâ observation, was not the case. Every time, it was just that 1 or 2 questions that were highlighted. People were not happy because they spent so much on tuition and yet cannot score full marks. Think of it rationally, MOE would not set papers as difficult as NYPS (where more than half the paper consists of challenging questions). They have to cater to the majority average students. If not, nearly the whole P6 cohort in Singapore will fail. -
sunflower:
Before Teach Less Learn More (TLLM) policy, textbooks have traditionally been content heavy. Many complain about so much to remember and syllabus too heavy. Well, there was a review and the syllabus was reduced and they introduce this TLLM. Textbooks were written to reflect this policy, thatâs why the much reduced content. Although much less information is printed, I remember textbooks do provide internet links for students to further research on the topic.
This makes no sense. Just because people complain there is too much to remember, the solution is to write less into textbook and put in even more content in the exams?
The links provided are not enough. To handle his exams last year... we needed...
(1) a specialized book on Science exam answering technique
(2) 1 set of guide books 1 ft high featuring Upper and Lower Primary Science syllabus
(3) An average of 4 hours a week of internet search using keywords from the 1 ft high source of materials
(4) Hands-on experimentation since age 2sunflower:
SOME schools try their best. Others don't try at all. We are back to the issue of variance in quality amongst schools which most people think an un-solvable problem. SOME schools use Onsponge. Others don't at all. Again... variance in quality.Many schools do put in extras such as Onsponge and other assessment books in their booklist. Others such as my DD1 neighbourhood school ordered other assessment books or gave out supplementary notes to their students. What I can say is that most schools try their best to supplement the textbooks.
Again... same comment. Many MNCs have found a way to maintain consistency in businesses with a high level of human determinant. So yes... this is what I expect. Just watch them and learn.sunflower:
I agreeOK, what Iâm discontent about is the implementation of this TLLM. I feel teachers were not well prepared/trained. Every school have their own interpretation and each administer what they thought TLLM means, which can be quite different between schools. Moreover, the way PSLE questions were set did not adjust to the change, and questions set seems to be still in the content heavy style.
sunflower:
Oh boy... I agree.With the way it is, personally, I do not think MOE would do much changes to the textbooks, unless thereâs a major review/change of syllabus or the scraping or tweaking of the TLLM policy. This teaching methodology is just not suitable for primary school children, where they are still building their foundation. TLLM is only good for later stages, where knowledge is built and developed upon that foundation.
sunflower:
This hits the bulls eye.Moreover, the change in the government management style into the business model since the mid 1990s created more harm than good. Instead of serving the people, different ministries/department and for that matter, schools compete with each other to âshow offâ, to meet KPIs. Pretty sad, everybody in the rat race and lost focus. This resulted in the competiveness even amongst teachers. With the change of the Education minster, I hope there will be a change in the mindset of how schools should be evaluated. Education is about learning and sharing, to collectively build our next generation of people who can move our nation forward.
sunflower:
I had suggested this too MANY times... and to individuals in MOE.What I personally feel for MOE to consider:
1. Iâve written this in one of my earlier post, that there should be a centralised online database/forum where teachers can contribute and have access to teaching materials created by teachers and posted in the MOE teachersâ portal/forum. All teachers would have the password to access such sharing of information, where they can comment, share resources, post questions and basically help each other. It is up to the teachers' discretion whether to use/modify or give out the notes based on their students' needs.
Notably in point 6 of this blogpost... http://petunialee.blogspot.com/2012/03/world-class-but-also-barely-literate.htmlsunflower:
Oh... absolutely!2. Due to the very specialized knowledge and skills required of the various subjects, especially in the upper primary level, I would suggest that teachers be trained to be subject specialist for a particular subject. Mid to upper primary school teachers shouldnât be teaching English, Math and Science all lump together, which may create situations such as what Chenonceauâs son encountered, whose teacher may not be competent to teach English but maybe very good in Math or Science..
sunflower:
I agree.3. Unnecessary admin/committee work should be eliminated for teachers to focus on their teaching. (In this aspect, I can see that MOE is slowly working towards this by providing more support staff. But still, more can be done.) Teachers then would have more time to mark studentsâ work properly, to prepare quality teaching materials and to upgrade themselves professionally.
sunflower:
I hadn't thought of the point in red. But I think it is absolutely lovely.4. Holistically speaking, MOE should seriously review the whole education landscape, to look at successful education models of other countries and take in a thing or two. Should we even have a national exam such as the PSLE, or should the age be adjusted so that itâs fairer to boys, who generally mature later and to cater to late bloomers? Or even review how scores should be calculated, so that it helps/identifies people who may be particularly strong in certain subjects/areas, in order to nurture them, not to penalize them just because they are not equally strong in ALL subjects.
sunflower:
I am grateful you took the time to write.I do agree that we need to revamp our education system. I was just trying to offer views from another perspective, so that we can look at things in a more holistic manner. There are bound to be differences in our opinions because of our different experience that shape our thinking.
As you can see, we do not differ greatly in opinion on the system. Unfortunately, I have been trying to engage MOE on the points you mentioned above for the past 12 months. When you talk to a wall, after a while, you begin to shout. I know it is inelegant of me... and my posts seem to tug HARD at the rope in a certain direction... but that is because MOE has not been forthcoming with dialogue and open discussion. Only one public denial after another... and empty claims of being world class.
Meanwhile a world class system liberally flouts a well documented research finding (by world-renowned researchers of autonomous motivation) by offering MONEY to build character.
MOE's PR people must come to the realization that pat press statements will NOT change the experiences people have lived through. At the end of the day, it really boils down to HOW MANY people experienced what I have gone through with my son... and what my friends are going through... and how many more parents will go through what I have gone through in the next few years till 2016.
For 12 months, I have been putting into words our malaise... but if a parent's experience cannot be related to my words, he/she will be repelled, and prompted to write a vigorous riposte. Some parents have done so. However, if your experience can be related to my words, then my words will help to express your malaise... and then I get PM after PM encouraging me to write even when I am about to give up. These are the same silent voters in the KSP polls who vote Unhappy.
In the final analysis, it's the numbers of people who HAVE actually experienced what I have... my words don't count unless they resonate with another's real life experience. The mistake MOE made is that it thought it could speak words that are contrary to the reality we live and with words, deny or make the world right. -
sunflower:
In any change of policy, the ministries, and in this case, the MOE would have to decide on the best course of action by thinking through carefully, weighing the pros and cons as well as considering all aspects as itâll impact its citizens. I donât think they want to implement something hastily only to later discover costly implications that lead to more problems, like whatâs happening now with all those policies initiated by MBT.
They should have thought through TLLM before they implemented it then... Because, with TLLM they now ..
(1) Have to pretend education is largely free AND
(2) Cannot manage to teach adequately to their own syllabus -
sunflower:
I personally do not think just having textbooks FULL of information is an all-cure.
Did I say it would be a cure-all?
I qualified the request for better textbooks as a beggar would ask for scraps. It's a better than nothing solution.sunflower:
This is a comment I can completely relate to, and I did suggest it here - http://petunialee.blogspot.com/2012/02/education-system-unable-to-deliver.html. But this is a utopia I dare not ask for. When you've been stone walled for 12 months, you learn to ask for only the scraps - textbooks.Times have changed and exam questions are set differently from what we were used to. In the past, if we can remember and regurgitate, we score, and textbooks provided us with all the necessary information. At this age and time, with knowledge explosion, we need to know how to process and use information from all sources. In other words, we aim to nurture the next generation of thinkers.
There is plethora of online resources but the Teachers are not teaching with these. DS school sticks closely to the textbooks and workbooks... thin in content though these may be. It is I who opened the door to online Science resources and encouraged my son to make his own textbook.
On this forum, many parents teach their kids science with piles of assessment books. That is the traditional way of teaching and ineffective for the new syllabus and new testing demands. Most parents don't know this and to my observation, many teachers don't either.sunflower:
Exactly so.Now, PSLE questions are set differently from our time, where they test whether students are able to assimilate knowledge and apply. Hence, teachers seriously need extensive training in order to deliver whatâs expected in this new era. Simply dishing out information loaded textbooks is not enough. Teachers need to teach students HOW to use this information and HOW to further acquire more information and expand their knowledge base.
But if the Teachers cannot handle TLLM, they won't be able to handle this. It is a question of implementation. The syllabus is well within the grasp of our kids. It is the teaching service that cannot cope.sunflower:
I believe one school in Singapore is using our kids as testing subjects. Parents are all transferring their kids out of the school. It must be fun to create your own textbooks but the knowledge with which to create the textbooks needs to come from somewhere... perhapsRegarding textbooks, Iâve read of an education model where children do not have any pre-printed textbooks in school. They learnt and remembered more as they created their own unique textbooks. At the same time, childrenâs creativity and problem solving skills were developed and enhanced. Pretty impressive I must say, when I saw photos of their work. I read it some time back so couldnât remember off hand what model was that, but I do not think this can work in Singapore, given the current culture of extensive testing.
(1) hands-on experimentation
(2) moderated discussions
(3) access to other sources of knowledge
I actually get DS to write his own \"textbook\" for Science. I also get him to put on geeky Professor glasses to teach the whole family from Powerpoint slides. These methods do work but they require a complete paradigm shift from traditional educational methods. If the system ...
(1) can't get its head around TLLM
(2) can't get away from extensive testing
then like you, I too don't think it can handle this new method -
sunflower:
I'm not trying to convince you on the quality of neighbourhood schools. I gave the examples to show that there's no absolute in everything, and to dispel the notion that:
You need not convince me on the quality of neighbourhood schools. I know some far surpass a couple (not all) branded schools in quality of teaching. This still does not resolve the problem of variance in quality between schools.Chenonceau:
[quote=\"sunflower\"]
It's a pity that some schools apply the wrong strategy in their teaching and testing. There are some neighbourhood schools that provide very good support, and test within reasonable standards, so much so that tuition is not a necessity.
Just to share. A friend told me she was very grateful to her daughterâs neighbourhood school. Her daughter did not have a good foundation in English. She was identified for Learning Support Programme (LSP) since P1. She responded very well to the programme and could read those thick books by P5. She eventually went to an IP school.
Another case: My neighbour shared that her daughterâs teacher identified her to be very strong in Chinese, and took the time to personally coach her and another classmate every week after school. She did very well and chose a SAP school after PSLE.
Both children depended on school and did not have tuition.
1. Tuition is a MUST and a necessity for everyone (Case 1 above)
2. ONLY branded schools identify talents and train them, or give them more opportunities to develop their potential (Case 2).
BTW, the girl in Case 2 represented her primary school in competitions as well.[/quote]Ah yes... there is no absolute in everything. I don't think I am so naive as to claim an absolute truth. I never said that tuition is a must and a necessity for EVERYONE. My own kids have no tuition (because I can teach) so I would not say that.
I said tuition has become a necessity. Full stop. Notably, in situations (as you have yourself pointed out) where certain parameters are met...
(1) schools teach inadequately (and we have ascertained that this is not a perception because there are ways to determine whether the school tests beyond what it taught)
(2) parents cannot teach
Of course, there are parents who will send for tuition no matter what. There are also those who don't believe in tuition and will got through great lengths to avoid it. This 2nd set of parents don't get mentioned enough. They exist.
I have also never said that ONLY branded schools identify talent. I made the point that some schools do, and I am well aware that some neighbourhood schools do. This still does not resolve the issue of variance in quality between schools (whether branded or neighbourhood, let's just call them schools). My position on branded/neighbourhood has always been that it doesn't mean anything. One will be horrified at how poorly some branded schools teach... and some neighbourhood schools provide notes of impressive quality. Hopefully, when MOE audits schools, they won't let the school brand name mislead them into thinking such and such is a good school just because it is a popular one.
If we look past the distinction branded/neighbourhood, we are still faced with the problem of variance in quality between schools, are we not? 2 schools within a few km of each other... but providing different quality of education. It was my hope that with ...
(1) a consistent set of more comprehensive-than-now written resources across all schools... there would be a certain core consistency. Quality is provided through the written resources even if the schools fail to teach adeequately.
(2) a national database for Teachers would help to further provide consistency whilst allowing Teachers to respond to INDIVIDUALS (not just classes) when generating worksheets and notes.
(3) a consistent set of more comprehensive-than-now written resources across all schools would mean that the system has redundancy of sorts. Any robust system needs layers of contingencies and back-ups. With textbook resources so thin... you need tuition if you have a bad Teacher. Else, you need a Mother like me... willing and able to source and screen written resources.
Better textbooks and access to syllabus-centric written resources online and in the school libraries PLUS guidance on how to access and use these resources will be good back-up... creating a redundancy that at present is missing. -
sunflower:
I personally do not think just having textbooks FULL of information is an all-cure.
I almost never write in absolutes. It's odd that you would understand absolutes from what I wrote. Absolute claims are too easily disproven so I almost never make them. Even the sky is not always blue. Why FULL? Why cure-ALL?
If I dared, I would ask for...
(1) a series of Youtube video experiment demonstrations that any child can log onto
(2) online demonstrations of oral exams that any child can access
(3) online modules full of fun skits and voiceovers detailing the various aspects of PSLE compo writing
- evocativeness of language
- creation of suspense
(3) Etc...
But when the textbooks are so lousy, you kind of assume that such demands would be way beyond the capability of our MOE... so I just asked for better textbooks... not FULLY COMPREHENSIVE textbooks.
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