Bi-lingualism at school a mistake ?

[ChiefKiasu]

clarabella:

I have met many professionals over the years who are more than proficient in both English and MT. My husband has colleagues (locals) who are perfectly capable of writing medical papers entirely in Chinese. I do not have problems drafting legal contracts for PRC clients in Chinese, and this obviously goes far beyond conversational language skills. And by no means am I the odd one out in my firm...

Err... clarabella... I recall somebody saying that you were a gifted child from the GEP That would hardly qualify you to be a \"normal\" person then, for the purpose of discussion :lol:

[radiantmum]

Bi-Lingualism NOT a mistake. It is a key differentiator! Key obstacle is PREJUDICE in child (from parents/environment) that creates a MENTAL BLOCK in learning (and of course it doesn’t help when language itself is more difficult to learn and classes are not made interesting).


I speak from personal experience 'cos I have nephew and friends whom think that it is NOT COOL to speak Mandarin (equates to a lower social status) and in fact COOL not to be able to speak Mandarin or speak English/Mandarin in "ang mo" accent!

[3Boys]

I hear the chorus of bewilderment at why learning chinese is apparently so difficult. It is so frustrating for someone for myself to get the message across, and all I can advise is, even if you don't understand it, doesn't mean it can't or doesn't happen! MM Lee himself, scanning the horizon of years of failed efforts, including his personal experience with his own children, has already flagged this as an issue Are naysayers saying that all of this is a fabrication?


I've shared personally about myself before. My grandparents spoke Teochew, my parents both dialect and English, but no one in my childhood family knew any mandarin. Their culture is not one of Tang poetry etc, and the first time I heard mandarin was in P1.

I was a good student in school, consistently topping the standard for maths, science and english, and for a while even, chinese. My parents were not overly concerned as I seemed to be doing well and didn't need any help. However, by P3, things were getting difficult. I was no longer topping my standard because I was giving 20-30 marks away in chinese to other bright students, despite beating everyone else hands down in other subjects. At this point, I was already spending 40% of my time on 1 subject only, Chinese. My parents were nothing if not encouraging, but it was beyond their abilities to help me and in those days, enrichment material were far from easy to obtain. My younger brother trod the same path.

So, all the naysayers, banish your myths. There are many bright students in other subjects who struggle in Chinese, just because you did not, does not mean it does not happen. It does, and with regularity. Also, it does not mean that such students have somehow been imbibed with a dislike for the language. I eventually developed a resentment for the amount of effort required to master the lingo, but have no anathema for the language or culture per se, and still harbour hopes of finding time to work on the language in my adulthood.

tamarind wrote about how easy it would be to learn the language if you applied the sort of effort she outlined in her post. There is an inherent contradiction, if you needed to apply so much effort and immerse yourself to cultivate that learning, how can it be called easy? I didn't have to immerse myself in English culture to learn English, or learn Shakespeare, or poetry, or scribble Einstein's equations on a wall to learn math.

About culture. No one has answered my original question about what constitutes Chinese culture. Is mandarin equal to chinese culture? So my grandparents spoke Teochew, does it mean they were not chinese? Or are we talking Beijing imposed culture? Do the Cantonese in Guangdong have the same culture as the Uighurs in Xinjiang, or perhaps they don't count as being chinese? Is communism chinese culture, or is it capitalism? Is it Buddhism, or Confucianism? Is it Shanghai, or Hong Kong, Hainan or Shandong? If you think I am joking, consider the even more ridiculous concept of a 'centralised, state sanctioned, official' chinese culture --> http://www.waccglobal.org/en/20061-celebrating-cultural-diversity/564-Globalization-national-culture-and-the-search-for-identity-A-Chinese-dilemma.html. Using the culture stick to beat those less proficient in the language is grossly unfair, when no one can even really explain what it is.

For those of you passionate about the language and are good at it, congratulations, but do not cast aspersions about the motivations and abilities of those that are not. As has been mentioned, there can be many tracks for learning languages.

[3Boys]

radiantmum:

Bi-Lingualism NOT a mistake. It is a key differentiator! Key obstacle is PREJUDICE in child (from parents/environment) that creates a MENTAL BLOCK in learning !

I agree with your first point, but your contention of prejudice as a generalisation is false.

[tamarind]

3Boys:

tamarind wrote about how easy it would be to learn the language if you applied the sort of effort she outlined in her post. There is an inherent contradiction, if you needed to apply so much effort and immerse yourself to cultivate that learning, how can it be called easy? I didn't have to immerse myself in English culture to learn English, or learn Shakespeare, or poetry, or scribble Einstein's equations on a wall to learn math.

I also wrote this :
[quote]Those who complain difficulties in learning Chinese have most likely missed the \"window of opportunity\". Kids are capable of learning any language(s) from birth to 6 years old.[/quote]

My statement is supported by :
[quote]Tan Chee Lay, deputy executive director, Singapore Centre for Chinese Language, said: \"For students to learn, the golden age is from three to six. So in this period of time, if we're able to teach them well, they'll learn well and their language foundation will be there.\" [/quote]
Since you learn Chinese only in P1, that is why you face so much difficulties. I believe that all kids are capable of learning any languages at an amazing speed before the age of 6. He/She may only need to spend 30 mins to an hour every day to learn Chinese or English between the ages of 3 and 6, and will be able to read reasonably well in both languages before the age of 7. After that, the kids start to lose that kind of ability to learn languages.

Also, immersing yourself in a culture, may not be considered as \"difficult\" by everyone. I enjoyed it very much, and I loved to imagine myself as one of those swordswoman in Wuxia novels. Hong Kong TV series dubbed in mandarin was great entertainment to me. My 6 year old girl enjoys memorizing and reciting Tang Poetry, she loves the beautiful characters and the rhymes and she asks to learn more. She is certainly not suffering.

You have actually immersed yourself in the English culture but you did not realize it. There is no need to read Shakespeare. Watching English movies, TV programs, listening to English pop music, conversing in English with your friends, all these are \"immersion\" !

I struggled with English all the way to JC level, and I had to memorize entire textbooks of Chemistry, Physics, Biology, History, Geography which are all written in English. I had to study Shakespeare but that was not helpful. After JC, I started to listen to American pop music, watch lots of American movies and sitcoms, and that is when I can finally speak and write English with ease. Then I met my hubby who cannot speak Mandarin as fluently, and we always converse in English. That is really immersion for me and I enjoy it very much

3Boys:

About culture. No one has answered my original question about what constitutes Chinese culture. Is mandarin equal to chinese culture? So my grandparents spoke Teochew, does it mean they were not chinese? Or are we talking Beijing imposed culture? Do the Cantonese in Guangdong have the same culture as the Uighurs in Xinjiang, or perhaps they don't count as being chinese? Is communism chinese culture, or is it capitalism? Is it Buddhism, or Confucianism? Is it Shanghai, or Hong Kong, Hainan or Shandong? If you think I am joking, consider the even more ridiculous concept of a 'centralised, state sanctioned, official' chinese culture --> http://www.waccglobal.org/en/20061-celebrating-cultural-diversity/564-Globalization-national-culture-and-the-search-for-identity-A-Chinese-dilemma.html. Using the culture stick to beat those less proficient in the language is grossly unfair, when no one can even really explain what it is.

According to the Merriam Webster dictionary :

Culture
5 a : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time <popular> <southern> c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization <a> d : the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic


Mandarin and all dialects are part of the Chinese culture. The written form of the language is the same for all dialect groups, and is most important.
As Chinese, we all share the same set of values 忠孝仁义 礼仪廉耻 (filial piety, loyalty, honesty, compassion, etc)
Communism does not originate from China, and is certainly not part of the culture. Chinese people are capitalistic by nature.
I think that the Chinese literature, especially the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Great_Classical_Novels, also constitutes the culture.
Even the Chinese cuisine is part of our culture.

Read Wiki for more details.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_China

[clarabella]

Chief ah, so I cannot play here huh?

[tamarind]

karmeleon:

Can't say it in that way ... \"inaptitude\" in the language?


What happens is that a child who can be certified with a learning disability, and that's why it needs to be tested & certified by a psychologist. Learning disabilities like dyslexia, autism, etc. I have several friends who have kids with such and have been exempted from MT. These kids take their psle in a separate room from the rest and usually given longer time to handle their exams. Not ALL apply to be exempt from MT though. It depends on the child/parent. But MOE does seem to approve such applications very quickly these days. I've heard that approval can be received within 2 or 3 weeks.

Kids with dyslexia will have problems will all subjects, right ? I wonder if kids can be exempted from English or Maths ?

Clarabella:

For goodness sake, it is supposed to be our mother tongue. If you meet a Japanese or French national who cannot speak his mother tongue and who proudly proclaims \"I HATE JAPANESE/FRENCH!\", what would you think?!

The fact is that Singaporeans do not consider themselves as Chinese. They consider themselves as Singaporeans.

When I was in RJC many years ago, other students made fun of me, they nicknamed me \"mother tongue\". Because I was very good in Chinese and I tried to promote Chinese.

Honestly, I also consider myself a Singaporean. As a Singaporean, our characteristic is bi-lingualism. And we must learn both languages.

[3Boys]

tamarind,

thank you for your engagement. I will write in a straightforward manner in reply, and its only in the interest of furthering the discussion and not cause offence, ok

tamarind:

I also wrote this :
[quote]Those who complain difficulties in learning Chinese have most likely missed the \"window of opportunity\". Kids are capable of learning any language(s) from birth to 6 years old.

My statement is supported by :
[quote]Tan Chee Lay, deputy executive director, Singapore Centre for Chinese Language, said: \"For students to learn, the golden age is from three to six. So in this period of time, if we're able to teach them well, they'll learn well and their language foundation will be there.\" [/quote][/quote]Then lets accept it as such, as opposed to the constant sniping that somehow such folk are lacking in motivation or abilities.

As to your point about communism not being part of the chinese culture, well, it just goes to show you how fluid a culture can be isn't it? It was embraced by millions of eager Chinese under the leadership of Mao Tze Dong. Playing Devil's advocate, one could ask, if it were not part of the culture, why was it so readily accepted, and now still a pervasive part of life for 1.3 billion chinese?

According to the Merriam Webster dictionary :

Culture
5 a : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time <popular> <southern> c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization d : the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic

Thank you for the definition. The position has now shifted slightly. I'm not sure your position that only the written form is the most important is accepted equally by other proponents of the 'culture' camp. Even so, there are nuances in how the language is used in the regions, with different vernacular.

Again food, honestly, Chinese cuisine defies definition. It can only be adequately be defined by the regions. Do you watch the China travel programme that comes on CNA every now and then. The host travels to the regions to sample the culture and cuisine, and a lot of the food is plain alien to him. So what constitutes the cultural element of food in China? All of it? Some of it? Or none of it? If you have been to some of the more mediocre chinese restaurants in the west, where they try to 'capture' Chinese cuisine (i.e. mish mash of all the regions), you will understand what a sad and hopeless endeavour that is.

Thank you for the wikipedia link, it is highly fascinating (particularly the sub-link to Taoist sexual practices ). I am uncertain about how authoritative it may be, but certainly serves as a good starting point to explore the different aspects. Perusing the article, do you feel that one needs to be fully educated in all the aspects (wei-qi), buy into all the beliefs (e.g. Reincarnation and rebirth) and practices (Shaolin Kung-fu), in order to be 'Chinese'? Are they all central, or part of a smorgasbord of elements of chinese culture, to which a chinese may possess some elements but not necessarily all of them?

If this seems convoluted, it is because I want to challenge the notion that somehow there is one single definition of chinese culture, and that the learning of mandarin is the only way to preserve it, and that if somehow you did not have the language, you were devoid of the shared values of being a chinese. I do this because it has been the stick that has been wielded over the years, and if it has led to some backlash from folk who have difficulties with the language, then I think Chinese cultural chauvinism has played its part in engendering that.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for learning the language, and if some time in the future I get the time, I will take it up again myself. I am giving my kids a headstart, with some hope that they will not suffer the same fate as their dad. If they get interested and want to delve into the culture, I will welcome and support it, but I do not demand it.

However, we owe it to our kids to allow them to learn the language in a safe environment, devoid of all the baggage of 'Chineseness' that seems to drive how we approach mandarin education. It is, after all primarily a language we are trying to learn, at least in the first instance. It does not preclude them getting deeper into the culture and language later on if they or their parents so desire, but please get off the backs of those with difficulty in mandarin. With other subjects, its seems to be ok to be weak in it, just pick up the effort. With mandarin, there are all sorts of negative implications.

[tamarind]

3Boys,

I posted the following before your post. I think you have not read it.

Tamarind:

The fact is that Singaporeans do not consider themselves as Chinese. They consider themselves as Singaporeans.

When I was in RJC many years ago, other students made fun of me, they nicknamed me \"mother tongue\". Because I was very good in Chinese and I tried to promote Chinese.

Honestly, I also consider myself a Singaporean. As a Singaporean, our characteristic is bi-lingualism. And we must learn both languages.

In this entire thread, I never wrote that we must study Chinese because we are ethnic Chinese. I recognize that we are Singaporeans.

All I am saying is that if we want to do well in a language, we must start from very young, and we must learn to appreciate the language and the culture, and learning any language can be very enjoyable. Using the correct methods is very important. It is wrong to say that Chinese is very difficult to learn compared to English. That's all.

If a person has to learn the Japanese language, but she dislikes the Japanese culture, she will also not do well.

I do not agree with many of your views about the Chinese culture in your long post, I think most of your interpretation is not correct, and it shows your prejudice of the Chinese culture though you do not realize it. But it is quite irrelevant to this thread and I see no point talking about it. Perhaps other people can take the time to respond to you.

[tamarind]

Another good letter published today :

http://www.straitstimes.com/STForum/Story/STIStory_458208.html

Nub of problem is motivation and attitude
I REFER to Sunday's report, 'Game for Chinese class?' While I appreciate the commitment by the Ministry of Education (MOE) to help students enjoy their Mandarin classes, I do not understand what is so wrong with the current teaching method. Aren't all languages taught in similar ways?

Which language learning does not involve memorisation? How else do you expand your vocabulary if you do not memorise, especially if you do not live in an environment that uses that language?

Unless your home environment allows you to be immersed in Mandarin, there is no other way than to memorise. And because of the unique writing system, how else do you remember how to write those thousands of characters except with practice?

In our local universities, foreign languages are taught by reading passages in textbooks and learning grammar rules through repetition and memorisation of sample dialogue. I believe private institutions use similar methods.

How different are these methods from how our schools teach Chinese?

I believe the difference lies in the individual's motivation and attitude. Learning Mandarin was never a choice for Chinese students, whereas in the universities and other language schools, foreign languages are taken by choice, usually because of interest, hence the motivation.

However, Mandarin was 'forced' on every Chinese student, whether he liked it or not. And in wilful, childish rebellion, many chose to shun Mandarin.

As for attitude, I believe there is still a strong subconscious mentality that Mandarin is for the uneducated and the educated speak only impeccable English. With such an attitude, no amount of coaxing or coercion is going to work. If the motivation and attitudes are not there, no strategy by MOE will last long.

Wu Zhi Zhen (Ms)