Is GEP really necessary?
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ruohoo97:
Agree! Of course, I agree the FT are required, otherwise I will not have opportunities myself! We can't really reverse that now. Since they are already in Singapore, there's no other way except to give them equal opportunities and equal treatment. If we don't teach our children to perform and to harden up and be resilient, then how will they survive?This thread is moving so fast, sorry not read all the posts.
In today global environment, Which country does not have FT/FW ? which country does not have people go to other countries? The fact of people who have left are still concerning this country shows they still love this country. We at least should show some appreciation.
水往低处流，人往高处走。
One of main reasons, I think, why Singaporean are so against FT, is that they feel being threaten, their so called \"privileges\" being marginalized. But Singapore is just an island country, without FT, how does it survive in the long term? -
Whether our education system affects social mobility depends on how you look at it, and to many our own experiences.
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2ppaamm:
Whether our education system affects social mobility depends on how you look at it, and to many our own experiences.
1. GEP SHOULD identify the truly gifted, but it does not necessarily, because as already pointed out, children who are very gifted in one discipline and not in another are left out, and children who are well-trained on taking IQ tests get in. One group is left out, one group gets in when they are hothoused. Therefore, there is a group that deprives some truly gifted to get in because they are able to pay exhorbitant fees that GEP training centres charge. Er... I know at least one kid personally, he is now in Sec 1, and I know that this same cohort in this particular school, ALL those who were short-listed went for GEP training, except one. And that one did not get in. The mum wrote a long article to ST and it was published because she was sure she didn't want to send her kid. Search it out if you can. I know the mum who wrote that article. That year, that school contributed to one class of 25 to GEP. How many are truly gifted? I don't know because I know only one child personally in that group who got in and the other I know did not, the year should be 2008 P4 GEP. According to GEP, their test is NEVER, EVER wrong.
2. Another level is PSLE. PSLE was about who is able to grasp concept to move to schools suitable for the child. But now, it has changed into a big money making machine. My son's high ability class of 40, 39 went for tuition, some of them 6 tuition (one for every subject, and two compo). The #40 is my son, but I am able to help, except for Chinese, and I was not concerned about PSLE. That class, 99% went to an affiliated school (I think they used to be top 11 or something when ST still ranked the Sec school). So yes, I think PSLE is about who you can employ as your tutor. That was 2007. Now, I was told it is even worse, tuition has become even more vital because teachers teach even less.
3. DSA is supposed to select children of abilities besides academic. There are therefore very few vacancies for the different domains. Domain for Music in the NYGS was Grade 7, to get into (not criteria to apply) Raffles family - diploma, what's that music school at Bras Basah - to get in, you need at least Grade something. If you have no money, how do you get these grades? Sports. To be selected for sports like sailing, swimming, tennis, badminton etc, you will need to be trained with clubs. Again, $$$. Dance, $$$. Of course there are other sports that are less $$$ centred, like soccer, if you want to go to sports school. So, MOST (I didn't say all) DSA is also about $$$.
4. S1 posting. Already covered in PSLE.
5. Supplementary entry. This one depends on the knowledge of parents. KSP are very good at this because we have knowledge. Imagine the hawker, the bus driver, they will not know how to do these things. At S1 posting, go to whichever school lor... Some schools used to collect money at this round, some in the name of asking the kids to use the hostel. How do I know? I taught a few to get into those schools through this back door.
6. Universities. $8K to $13K per year. The MOE made it clear that there is no subsidy for tertiary education for citizens. Why? Google that out. I read and forgot the justification already. Of course, this is expensive to some families, and I know of some who have to mortgage their flats to put their children through even local uni. Can't go to local uni, the rich can fly them to any country they want.
So, I think we have a problem in our education system, and the responsibility has shifted to families from the government over the last decade or so. I believe this is unhealthy because it is the responsibility of the state to provide education. Is it a big problem, yes and no. Depends on where you sit. For me, no, because I am out. For those who cannot even get through the day, it is a big, big problem.
Hahaha! Then I must be super lucky! Hehehe.
If everyone like me, then no prob lor. Takes 2 hands to clap. Kiasu parents are the main cause too. If like that, overhaul education also not enough lah. Need to overhaul whole country! Because otherwise, Nothing will change lah! Hahaha. :rotflmao: -
Dnls_mum:
That is true... and that's what the minister said to us as well whenever we raise this. \"It is you, parents, who made this whole system like that. Blame it on the parents!\" But he forgot it is the parents who make his job so easy! :rotflmao:
Hahaha! Then I must be super lucky! Hehehe.
If everyone like me, then no prob lor. Takes 2 hands to clap. Kiasu parents are the main cause too. If like that, overhaul education also not enough lah. Need to overhaul whole country! Because otherwise, Nothing will change lah! Hahaha. :rotflmao:
You are lucky because your children are very intelligent and :salute: so are you! -
:udawoman:
2ppaamm:
Whether our education system affects social mobility depends on how you look at it, and to many our own experiences.
1. GEP SHOULD identify the truly gifted, but it does not necessarily, because as already pointed out, children who are very gifted in one discipline and not in another are left out, and children who are well-trained on taking IQ tests get in. One group is left out, one group gets in when they are hothoused. Therefore, there is a group that deprives some truly gifted to get in because they are able to pay exhorbitant fees that GEP training centres charge. Er... I know at least one kid personally, he is now in Sec 1, and I know that this same cohort in this particular school, ALL those who were short-listed went for GEP training, except one. And that one did not get in. The mum wrote a long article to ST and it was published because she was sure she didn't want to send her kid. Search it out if you can. I know the mum who wrote that article. That year, that school contributed to one class of 25 to GEP. How many are truly gifted? I don't know because I know only one child personally in that group who got in and the other I know did not, the year should be 2008 P4 GEP. According to GEP, their test is NEVER, EVER wrong.
2. Another level is PSLE. PSLE was about who is able to grasp concept to move to schools suitable for the child. But now, it has changed into a big money making machine. My son's high ability class of 40, 39 went for tuition, some of them 6 tuition (one for every subject, and two compo). The #40 is my son, but I am able to help, except for Chinese, and I was not concerned about PSLE. That class, 99% went to an affiliated school (I think they used to be top 11 or something when ST still ranked the Sec school). So yes, I think PSLE is about who you can employ as your tutor. The results was not sterling, but it is a sought after secondary school where the who's who in Singapore go to. With the affiliation, their cut of mark was much lower than the COP. That was 2007. Now, I was told it is even worse, tuition has become even more vital because teachers teach even less. So, at least from what I saw, getting into Sec school of choice has got to do with your social status and affiliation, and also your ability to afford tutors.
3. DSA is supposed to select children of abilities besides academic. There are therefore very few vacancies for the different domains. Criteria for Music domain in the NYGS was Grade 7, to get into (not criteria to apply) Raffles family - diploma, SOA - to get in, you need at least Grade something. If you have no money, how do you get these grades? Sports. To be selected for sports like sailing, swimming, tennis, badminton etc, you will need to be trained with clubs, school training can never get you there vis-a-vis others who are trained, because these schools only take in medalists. Again, $$$. Dance, $$$. Of course there are other sports that are less $$$ centred, like soccer, if you want to go to sports school. So, MOST (I didn't say all) DSA is also about $$$. GEP DSA, already covered above.
4. S1 posting. Already covered in PSLE.
5. Supplementary entry or appeal. This one depends on the knowledge of parents. KSP are very good at this because we have knowledge. Imagine the hawker, the bus driver, they will not know how to do these things. At S1 posting, go to whichever school lor... Some schools used to collect money at this round, some in the name of asking the kids to use the hostel. How do I know? I taught a few to get into those schools through this back door, as far as 30 points from the COP. Money talks.
6. Universities. $8K to $13K per year. The MOE made it clear that there is no subsidy for tertiary education for citizens. Why? Google that out. I read and forgot the justification already. Of course, this is expensive to some families, and I know of some who have to mortgage their flats to put their children through even local uni. Can't go to local uni, the rich can fly them to any country they want.
So, I think we have a problem in our education system, and the responsibility has shifted to families from the government over the last decade or so. I believe this is unhealthy because it is the responsibility of the state to provide education. Is it a big problem, yes and no. Depends on where you sit. For me, no, because I am out, and I honestly can afford to play all these games. For those who cannot even get through the day, it is a big, big problem. -
6 tuition is outdated now, some of them have 10 tuition (one for every language subject, two compo and two orals, 2 sciences and 2 maths with 1 based on syllabus and another for GEP ).
Estimated cost is $2.5K exuding music, dance, swimming, tennis, golf, taekwondo:yikes: -
cherryc:
Education system will solve or prevent more social problems in future. Education system will shape our future. Everything is interlinked.
3Boys, I agree with you. We have an issue of social mobility. This is a social problem. Not a GEP or No GEP issue. Not an education system issue.Dnls_mum:
[quote=\"3Boys\"]
I did not say we were the best, but neither do I believe our teaching system is in dire need of overhaul. If there is an issue with fairness in our society (and I will grant you that there is), then it needs to be dealt with at the societal level and school is but one small part of that.
I have said before, there is not point giving and iPad to a child who goes home to a family with absentee fathers, or a child who needs to work at the family hawker stall.
I value GEP and our education system very much as I want the best brains to lead our country in future and compete with the FTs. For that to happen, I wish the deserving ones are selected and correctly nurtured with empathy and values and world class knowledge or skills . I care alot about social mobility because I don't wish the weaker ones in future to have to compete with the FWs or getting handouts. In addition to the fact that I benefited from it and I owe it to the next poor but smart student to voice it out.
And I hope the middle 2%-90% band of students have their potentials fully developed without all the tuitions and unnecessary stress due to teacher-student ratios, insufficient materials, etc.
As Ponyo said it well, \"We are a small little red city state. A life left undeveloped to its fullest potential is one too many already…\". Also we don't have so much resources, tax money etc to to help the poor, to develop the talents (foreign ones also we need to develop) so if we can constantly improve our systems, I don't see why we can't go for it.
One and a half year ago, I would rather enjoy my Saturday going shopping and get my deserved rest then sit down in front of a computer and write out my concerns. Why ? because I have seen few social problems that worry me now. I am not against abolishing any system because it has served us well thus far. What I hope is accountability, more transparency, more care, more prudent policy, etc. And I am looking forward to tomorrow's speeches and hopefully actions.[/quote] :please: :goodpost: -
buds:
The part in bold. Yes! And they stay so buff for so long. Great choice! I am getting my son into rowing as well, daddy and son go rowing together.
Niwaes, canoeing will give sonny great physique and a nice tan..
Good preps for NS too. I was into canoeing for awhile in my teens
and as a young adult later on, apart from swimming for a small club. As a girl, not too nice tho cos I had problem fitting into pretty petite dresses with my broad shoulders. :politebleah: But the practices and days outside gave good stamina and allowed me to remain active, to stay healthy. Hope you guys donch go become FT somewhere else, as we sure need all rounders like your son in future government. (If he decides to be one, I vote yes. :D) I am seeing him as .... The kind of leaders who walk the ground and knows the ground not just the kind who talks all around in a merry go round.
You must be so proud of your boys. I would love to read more from you, so do share more when you have the time to. Have a great weekend! :celebrate: -
HVR:
I thought hard about these words and it made a lot of sense. Many people made it good BECAUSE they were from a poor background not despite of it. And when they do, they do very well.
I am from very poor background and now I think I am at least above average class and I didn't go through any good schools, good uni so I kind of resent it when people say the poor here doesnt stand a chance.
Maybe because I saw too many of my childhood friends who went to the gallows (for drug trafficking), died early (from drugs to prostitution) and jail (gambling, loan sharks etc), unwed mothers (from 14) that I forgot there are many who made it as well. Good on you! I hope many, many will follow your footsteps. :celebrate: And you are right, you don't have to go to good schools to be successful. I fully support that, there are many roads to Rome. -
Dnls_mum:
Dnls_mom, nice points. :goodpost:
My kid does not attend GEP preparatory class. We did not help him prepare for DSA. He just go to GEP selection test, and take the DSA selection test and interview without any preparation assistance from us. My point is, if a person is truly good, you do not need to attend extra lessons to get into GEP. I know for NJC admittance via DSA is not based on performance in the test alone. There is a day camp where they observe the behaviors of the kids in group activities and then in the interview ask them why the do certain things. The school was looking for students with certain quality. But I don't know what specifically.
My son got into NJC via DSA, another one got into SJI via affiliated pri school. Both have people in the secondary school who got in there with better PSLE results then them, but they are doing better then some of these students now. My son in SJI hold leadership position in his core CCA, is a peer support leader and has been asked to take up leadership in his second CCA but declined as we agreed he has too much on his plate. A true leader is not trained from extra lessons or by rich parents. Such leadership positions is free for all and cannot be bought. Ie someone from a poor family can get it too.
Anyone who has done well in PSLE is not deprived of a place in a good secondary school. Why is someone from a poor family deprived of a place in a top secondary school? It cannot happen base on how the S1 posting exercise is done. Those with academically better results get placed first.
It is more like someone from a poor family not being able to do well because of issues at home. Then this person cannot go to a good secondary school. This has nothing to do with our education system, but rather our social issues. What do we have in place to help these children?
Having said all these, I agree that there is a social mobility issue and it is not equal opportunity for all like what some claim. But I do not agree that GEP or DSA affects social mobility. We have a bigger social problem then that, and education is but one of many aspects. In fact GEP ensures that a truly gifted child, irrespective of background and financial ability will be provided with a GEP education and perhaps break out of the poverty vicious cycle.
This thread is about whether GEP is necessary. My point is that social mobility has nothing to do with whether there is GEP or not.
your kids are a examples of the current system which works. Your child is in the Gep with no preparation for it. But I assume you are rich enough to afford enrichments if there were a dire necessity, And both you and your DH are very well educated . But an assumption that your child got in mainly bcos of that is preposterous, isn't it ?
That is what I am saying, the system is not a total failure that it is being made out to be. It is not the best , has its flaws , improvements need to be made but the need and benefits are there.
Don't diss the system and ask for it to be uprooted just because it does not deliver a 100%
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