Principal of top school under investigation for hiring prost
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Coolkidsrock2:
I am lucky, my 2 kids are minimalist. Even though ds is 15, he is still a simple guy with few needs. They hardly ask for anything and refuse to go shopping with me as they find it boring.
I have friends whose pre-teen kids use Ferragamo or Hermes products. While it is the parents' perogative to bring up their children as they deem fit, am not sure how the kids can afford such lifestyle on their own in future. The reality is we cannot be providing for our kids all their life.
I do not take full credit for their thriftiness as I think it is partly their nature to be like this. However, there were a few things that we do that could have cultivated them such.
We discuss choices with them so they learn how to see values in things. Also, we help them to be aware of the 'cravings' when they see nice things which can be so irresistible. We teach them 'this too shall pass' mentality. Remind them that that moment of 'want' is strong but if you succumb, you end up with more clutter at home. if you let go, you walk away feeling strong and also the craving will just go away after awhile.
Teaching them this has to start very young. It has worked wonderfully for us. -
Thanks for sharing. Will keep in mind and use accordingly.
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Do you all think that a jail sentence is warranted in light of this revelation?
[quote]Underage prostitute 'had false IC stating age as 19'
Source: Straits Times
Date: 21 Nov 2012
Author: Elena Chong
THE underage prostitute at the centre of the online sex ring case apparently had a forged identity card saying she was over 18, a court heard yesterday.
This was revealed by lawyer Peter Fernando, whose client was jailed for 11 weeks yesterday after paying $650 for sex with the minor at a hotel in Bencoolen Street in January last year.
Urging the court to impose a stiff fine or call for a pre-sentence report, he said there were enough mitigating factors for Choong Sin Jian, 28, to be given a non-custodial sentence.
He said evidence the minor had the false IC showing she was 19 years old was found in text messages sent last year between her and pimp Tang Boon Thiew, 39.
Tang, whose case is pending, had told the girl not to bring her card. She asked why, adding that the IC she had with her stated her age as 19.
But Senior District Judge See Kee Oon disagreed that there was any mitigating force in the arguments.
\"The sentencing court's focus must be on what the accused had done to avoid committing the offence,\" he said. \"The incontrovertible fact is that he had not made any attempt to inquire about or verify the minor's age.\"
The judge added that the Singapore permanent resident, who worked as an accounts manager at the time, had allowed himself to be misled by choosing not to exercise due diligence.
\"That undermines his claims of having strong mitigating factors in his favour which would warrant consideration for probation or a fine,\" he said.
Although Choong did not plead guilty at an early stage, the judge gave him some credit for doing so eventually and for his readiness to account for his actions.
The girl was only about two months away from her 18th birthday at the time. The judge said this did not absolve Choong from liability even if it may lend some credence to his claims of being potentially honestly and reasonably mistaken about her age.
Choong had a second similar charge taken into consideration. He is the 15th man to be sentenced so far for having sex with the same girl.
Email: elena @sph.com.sg
Source: Straits Times
Singapore Press Holdings Ltd. Permission required for reproduction.[/quote] -
sgmodel:
[/quote]Yes of coz.Do you all think that a jail sentence is warranted in light of this revelation?
[quote]Underage prostitute 'had false IC stating age as 19'
Source: Straits Times
Date: 21 Nov 2012
Author: Elena Chong
THE underage prostitute at the centre of the online sex ring case apparently had a forged identity card saying she was over 18, a court heard yesterday.
This was revealed by lawyer Peter Fernando, whose client was jailed for 11 weeks yesterday after paying $650 for sex with the minor at a hotel in Bencoolen Street in January last year.
Urging the court to impose a stiff fine or call for a pre-sentence report, he said there were enough mitigating factors for Choong Sin Jian, 28, to be given a non-custodial sentence.
He said evidence the minor had the false IC showing she was 19 years old was found in text messages sent last year between her and pimp Tang Boon Thiew, 39.
Tang, whose case is pending, had told the girl not to bring her card. She asked why, adding that the IC she had with her stated her age as 19.
But Senior District Judge See Kee Oon disagreed that there was any mitigating force in the arguments.
\"The sentencing court's focus must be on what the accused had done to avoid committing the offence,\" he said. \"The incontrovertible fact is that he had not made any attempt to inquire about or verify the minor's age.\"
The judge added that the Singapore permanent resident, who worked as an accounts manager at the time, had allowed himself to be misled by choosing not to exercise due diligence.
\"That undermines his claims of having strong mitigating factors in his favour which would warrant consideration for probation or a fine,\" he said.
Although Choong did not plead guilty at an early stage, the judge gave him some credit for doing so eventually and for his readiness to account for his actions.
The girl was only about two months away from her 18th birthday at the time. The judge said this did not absolve Choong from liability even if it may lend some credence to his claims of being potentially honestly and reasonably mistaken about her age.
Choong had a second similar charge taken into consideration. He is the 15th man to be sentenced so far for having sex with the same girl.
Email: elena @sph.com.sg
Source: Straits Times Singapore Press Holdings Ltd. Permission required for reproduction.
It is not relevant whether the girl has a fake IC in her safe deposit box or whatever, but whether the accused asked for it and whether a fake ID was shown to the man to mislead him.
In other words, the \"revelation\" is irrelevant.
He never check, she never show, end of story. -
So if the man had asked for and been showed a fake IC by the girl, it would have been relevant?
Guess what, even if the above is true, the man would still be guilty according to the law.
Is it fair that the actions of the girl is totally disregarded here in this instance? Even in the case of rape, the girl has to object for there to be a case of rape, and in murder/assault where provocation by the other party is also a considered factor.
Worse, what is to stop the next underaged girl to use a fake IC and deceive people into having sex with her and having many men unwittingly breaking the law and getting punished? And if she's any more enterprising she may just blackmail all these clients if not she will report to the police since the law is so lopsided.
Also, do you think any action should be taken on the girl for using a fake IC? So far no action has been taken on her and she is still classified as a victim with her identity protected.limlim:
Yes of coz.sgmodel:
Do you all think that a jail sentence is warranted in light of this revelation?
[quote]Underage prostitute 'had false IC stating age as 19'
Source: Straits Times
Date: 21 Nov 2012
Author: Elena Chong
THE underage prostitute at the centre of the online sex ring case apparently had a forged identity card saying she was over 18, a court heard yesterday.
This was revealed by lawyer Peter Fernando, whose client was jailed for 11 weeks yesterday after paying $650 for sex with the minor at a hotel in Bencoolen Street in January last year.
Urging the court to impose a stiff fine or call for a pre-sentence report, he said there were enough mitigating factors for Choong Sin Jian, 28, to be given a non-custodial sentence.
He said evidence the minor had the false IC showing she was 19 years old was found in text messages sent last year between her and pimp Tang Boon Thiew, 39.
Tang, whose case is pending, had told the girl not to bring her card. She asked why, adding that the IC she had with her stated her age as 19.
But Senior District Judge See Kee Oon disagreed that there was any mitigating force in the arguments.
\"The sentencing court's focus must be on what the accused had done to avoid committing the offence,\" he said. \"The incontrovertible fact is that he had not made any attempt to inquire about or verify the minor's age.\"
The judge added that the Singapore permanent resident, who worked as an accounts manager at the time, had allowed himself to be misled by choosing not to exercise due diligence.
\"That undermines his claims of having strong mitigating factors in his favour which would warrant consideration for probation or a fine,\" he said.
Although Choong did not plead guilty at an early stage, the judge gave him some credit for doing so eventually and for his readiness to account for his actions.
The girl was only about two months away from her 18th birthday at the time. The judge said this did not absolve Choong from liability even if it may lend some credence to his claims of being potentially honestly and reasonably mistaken about her age.
Choong had a second similar charge taken into consideration. He is the 15th man to be sentenced so far for having sex with the same girl.
Email: elena @sph.com.sg
Source: Straits Times Singapore Press Holdings Ltd. Permission required for reproduction.
It is not relevant whether the girl has a fake IC in her safe deposit box or whatever, but whether the accused asked for it and whether a fake ID was shown to the man to mislead him.
In other words, the \"revelation\" is irrelevant.
He never check, she never show, end of story.[/quote] -
While I’m not saying the men are entirely faultless (what they did was indeed morally questionable, but then again everyone has different moral yardsticks), but my bugbear really is in how fair the law is.
Shouldn’t the law seek to be fair to all parties, and that it is based on reasonableness?
How reasonable is it to expect men to check a prostitute’s IC, it is not something that a reasonable person would do. Similarly, how reasonable is it to expect prostitutes to display their real IC when it contains private information about themselves?
From what I gather criminal justice seeks to achieve 3 objectives:
1. To protect society from the offender by removing him from society (jail)
2. To rehabilitate the offender
3. To seek redress for the victim
In this case, are any of the 3 objectives achieved?
1. What harm will they do to society that requires them to be locked up? They aren’t rapists or molestors, and by the way, prostitution is legal in Singapore, so seeking prostitutes by itself is a legally acceptable act
2. What is there to rehabilitate? They are simply suay that they got conned. How to avoid being suay? Check next time? But even if you check and you get deceived, still get whacked. Don’t visit prostitutes? But its not illegal, the government says its ok. What exactly is the message here being sent?
3. To seek redress for the victim? Is the girl even a victim in the first place? I guess enough have been said about her
So really, what good is achieved that can justify by destroying 51 men and not only them but their families?
Does the punishment fit the crime?
What if one of the 51 is your brother? (Note I am avoiding using husband here given the sensitivity and all the moralistic arguments it will throw up). -
sgmodel:
Yes.So if the man had asked for and been showed a fake IC by the girl, it would have been relevant?
sgmodel:
I doubt so. Please substantiate with proof of your claim.Guess what, even if the above is true, the man would still be guilty according to the law.
Any man have ever been charged and convicted when the girl actually shown a fake IC that the man can reasonably be made believe to represent the girl herself?
If the girl pulled out her father IC showing age 40, cannot expect the court to accept that as mitigation factor right?sgmodel:
Depends on what action. Her private collection of fake ICs kept in her closet and not shown to the man has no bearing on the case as far as due diligence by the man is concerned. Right?Is it fair that the actions of the girl is totally disregarded here in this instance? Even in the case of rape, the girl has to object for there to be a case of rape, and in murder/assault where provocation by the other party is also a considered factor.
And you're wrong about rape. A rapist can be guilty even if the victim is unconscious, under influence of alcohol, or drugs (no objection to the act).
You're wrong about murder too. provocation is not a critical consideration. The \"intent\" is. The assassin may be paid to kill even if victim never provoke him, and be guilty of murder.sgmodel:
Again, please substantiate your claim.Worse, what is to stop the next underaged girl to use a fake IC and deceive people into having sex with her and having many men unwittingly breaking the law and getting punished? And if she's any more enterprising she may just blackmail all these clients if not she will report to the police since the law is so lopsided.
I do not believe a man who practiced due diligence can so easily be charged or held ransom.sgmodel:
Yes. If impersonation or possession of fake ID is against the law.Also, do you think any action should be taken on the girl for using a fake IC? So far no action has been taken on her and she is still classified as a victim with her identity protected.
But that is another matter, another topic.
She may be charged as named, for the above crimes.
But the fake ID case may not be linked to the prostitution case in the reporting.sgmodel:
[/quote]
Yes of coz.limlim:
[quote=\"sgmodel\"]Do you all think that a jail sentence is warranted in light of this revelation?
It is not relevant whether the girl has a fake IC in her safe deposit box or whatever, but whether the accused asked for it and whether a fake ID was shown to the man to mislead him.
In other words, the \"revelation\" is irrelevant.
He never check, she never show, end of story. -
sgmodel,
do you sell handphone before? did the shop ask for your IC? It contains private information about yourself. Do you show? Sure, you can don’t show, and the shop can choose not to do your business.
If the shop did not check seller IC and the phone is found to be stolen goods and traced to the shop, the shop is liable. It is on the onus of the shop to check, they failed to check, they face the law, as simple as that, even if they claim the seller looked too innocent to possession of a stolen phone.
Reasonableness depends on how the law is defined.
If you rent out your flat, the onus is on owner to check tenant is not illegal immigrant, even if the tenant looks 105% like a Singaporean, owner need to check IC/Passport. Same principle.
This underage prostitution case is not the only one where burden of proof is on the defence.
A demand for underage prostitute can lead to exploitation of minors, and the law serves to provide deterrence too against undesirable vice. -
sgmodel:
Don't visit prostitutes? But its not illegal, the government says its ok. What exactly is the message here being sent?
Prostitution is a complex issue and is a subject of study of its own. However, in our day to day affairs, we should not be setting our own moral standards based on what is legal and not legal. Just because it is made legal does not mean it is a right / good thing to do. -
whether legal or not, men should Not visit prostitute !
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