Real reason behind Singapore’s obsession with tuition
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Chen
I like your your water analogy
My family members all drink the same water from the same pot boiled using the same kettle from the same boiling
I drank and got lao sai ...... don't understand why .... is true, is off topic but true ..... really
but :rotflmao: -
Intermezzo:
actually i very much wonder where would Jtoh fit in..? because i'm pretty sure she doesn't fall into any of these groups above... =)[/quote]I'll add in one more group to BeContented's original 3 groups:
then all parents and kids become Apple products : iDiotverykiasu2010:
[quote=\"jtoh\"]
Group 1 and Group 3 parents will go for even more IQ tests and enrichment classes because if they wait until O levels and don't do well there, how? No PSLE certificate to fall back on!!! Only Kindergarten graduation photo!! Cannot!! How can their precious children's future be dependent on just the O level exams?? What if they don't do well??? Must go actively in search of some interim certification ala iPSLE exam. Then some clever iTLL centre will set up interim certification exams and all these parents will flock there. :faint:
Group 1 : kiasu and educated and know-how-to-teach parents
- will still be busy enriching their children.....cannot relax, must be on your toes, cannot be lazy/bochup, must do your best. With more time now, let's accelerate!!! Must make sure can cover everything.
Group 2 : bo-chup and clueless parents
- with no timeline (or at least much later) will be more relax. Since school result is good (no difficult paper), no need tuition lah. Also no idea how the child is doing in school or how prepared is the child for the BIG streaming at 16.
Group 3 : somewhat kiasu but may not know what to do parents
- will start wondering where their kids stand. How to find out? What if the child end up bottom at 16yo? How to make sure they get to good schools when time comes? Start hearing from grapevine the rich & smart are having enrichment, go for IQ test, able to get hold of good resources. Then start enrolling into enrichments to make sure their kids are not left behind.
Group 4: Interested but not overly kancheong parents
- Interested in what's going on but also accepts reality of kids' ability.
There are a number of Group 4 parents on the forum. -
verykiasu2010:
Hmmmm... Different cup? Did you wash your cup?Chen
I like your your water analogy
My family members all drink the same water from the same pot boiled using the same kettle from the same boiling
I drank and got lao sai ...... don't understand why .... is true, is off topic but true ..... really
but :rotflmao: -
Intermezzo:
哇塞! this is exactly what i feel is the case for most kids. Trust you to be the one who DARE say it.verykiasu2010:
[quote=\"cherryc\"]Yah! Just Teach well, learn well. And kids can play well, sleep well and turn out well.
even so, there will still be kids who play in class and not pay attention and never notice what has been taught, and the parents will still say testing beyond scope, testing what was not taught
People like to talk and air our views, but really.. we are not so good when it comes to listening.
In fact, studies on listening skills indicate that typical adults only listen to between 30 to 50% of what is being said.
so how about the kids? can't be anywhere near 100%, right?
actually both my kids tried it on me before, saying that \"teacher didn't teach.. so dunno how to do..\"
i just tell them nicely, Maybe she did teach, but you weren't paying attention at that time?
and there's no way they could dispute that.. because they KNOW there IS no way they could have been paying 100% attention... :rotflmao:
but of cos i soften the blow by saying they can easily learn on their own to cover what they didn't get taught.[/quote]How do you explain when kids go to tuition , they seem to get it??? So tutors can teach better and the kids are more engaged? And I am impressed with your \"they can easily learn on their own what they didn't get taught\". How do your kids do it? Mine can't as the textbooks scarcely cover the syllabus and if they can do it , they don't need to go to schools at all. -
atutor2001:
Thanks once again for sharing your expertisecoast:
...So either the forum writer made a mistake (but SEAB did not find it necessary to correct her mistake in its reply?) or SEAB implied that it is possible (which will be very confusing unless PSLE subject grade is itself bell-curved).
I do believe that the raw scores are \"bell-curved\" adjusted. This is necessary because if we analyse T-score formula, we will find that the conversion factor from raw score is dependent on the raw score itself.
For example, with SD = 11 and mean = 75, the conversion factor is 0.73 for 100 marks but -0.91 for 10 marks. With SD = 13 and mean = 60, the conversion factor is 0.81 for 100 marks to 1.15 for 10 marks.
For certain combination of SD and mean, the conversion factor is independent of the raw score, example when when mean = 65 and SD = 13 or mean = 70 and SD =14...
So I guess the curve need to be adjusted for the ranking method to be fairer.
My apologies as I did not make it clear. What I meant by “PSLE subject grade is itself bell-curved” is that the grade itself (A*, A, B, …) is not based on a fixed range (e.g., A* :- 91 & above, A :- 75 to 90) but “bell-curved” adjusted (e.g., A* for a particular subject could be 92 and above in one year but 89 and above in another). This would make “3 A* and 1A lower T-score than 3As and 1B” more probable.
Interestingly, even though SEAB has replied that it is possible to the forum writer, the slide used by quite a number of schools in their parents briefing changed the question to “is it possible for a pupil with 3A* and 1A to be ranked lower than another pupil who has only 1A* and 3As”.
http://www.firsttoapayohpri.moe.edu.sg/wbn/slot/u1320/Parents%20Briefing%20P6/PSLE_2012_Parents_briefing_website.pdf
I guess I just make my own conclusion that the probability is so low that even schools have to change the data to (1A* and 3As) from (3As and 1B) which is quite a significant difference. If only SEAB provided clarity in its reply to the forum writer’s “Most of his friends who managed 3As and a B have better aggregate scores than him.”
Well, guess it will remain a mystery. For now, I will move on with there is a PSLE grading system (A* :- 91 & above, A :- 75 to 90, …) since it is statiscally possible by the estimates you have kindly shared but I guess some parents/ students might be shocked with their PSLE aggregate T-scores just like the forum writer.
Hopefully my posts will not be flagged “off-topic”. I personally feel that T-score system (ranking against cohort) is one of the key factors for our tuition phenomenon.
Can't thank you enough for being so kind to work out details for my queries. Many many thanks!!! -
verykiasu2010:
But it was the same during my time in school...most of the people at the back ain't paying attention too!! Perhaps u guys never sat at the back!
but this is only anecdote from one school. my kids did not attend other pri schools so cannot comment on others -
Just wondering… currently, Does MOE disallow teachers from moonlighting ?
Heard from my friend last time that MOE does not disallow it.
“discourage” is not the same as “disallow”…
If MOE never disallow it… I guess that is something something very wrong…
Teachers could be doing a brisk business at tuition and no heart to teach in the school! -
limlim:
I heard that they are allowed but there are some rules they have to observe ... like not exceeding how many hours weekly, cannot teach students from own class (or school?), ... etcJust wondering.. currently, Does MOE disallow teachers from moonlighting ?
Heard from my friend last time that MOE does not disallow it.
\"discourage\" is not the same as \"disallow\"..
If MOE never disallow it.. I guess that is something something very wrong..
Teachers could be doing a brisk business at tuition and no heart to teach in the school!
But it's what I heard. I do not know the actual rules. Maybe some ex or current teachers can provide better clarity. -
Chenonceau:
Don't worry Chen, believe you me, i'm more scared of getting slammed by you then vice versa.. :rotflmao:
Like I said, I am happy that people like Intermezzo and VKS2010 have been able to easily bridge the holes in the system that others cannot easily bridge. What I don't understand is why you would prevent parents in pain from seeking recourse by...
(1) blaming them
(2) making excuses for Teachers (they taught but your kid did not listen)
(3) making excuses for the system (they have constraints)
Believe me... when I write this post, I am quite as worried of getting slammed by people who write \"sian\" or by a raging bear. It's no fun to be doing what I am doing. Yet, there is a reality out there that I am seeing. In the long term, it is not good for our country. So I speak out. First, in private. Next, here. I am glad that there are others (independent of me) who also see that... and care enough to speak out.
i dun have your quick reflexes, your skills in writing nor your wealth of examples to quote to your advantage. all i'm doing here is also to share and speak out from my pov. surely this thread is not only for parents who are unhappy about Education in singapore? surely a better picture of the whole situation can be made with views from both sides?
And if it comes to that, who really is the minority here who is likely to get slammed? you get pm after pm encouraging you to carry on. all i'm likely to get is hate mail.. :rotflmao:
i have already apologized for the use of the word 'sian' in the other thread. i used it THERE because that thread was not about Education in singapore per se. i would NEVER use that word in this thread, because everyone is entitled to sharing their experience on singapore's schools. but still, i have already admitted that i should not have used the word because it is bound to hurt your feelings.
(oso, i really dun understand why you should see my post as being directed at you. it is never directed at anyone here. Everything i write here is based on my general observations.)
so, to state my point, i did not commit any of the 3 \"accusations\" above.
if you'd read my post, i said,
[[[[[[[[ This is exactly what i feel is the case for most kids.
People like to talk and air our views, but really.. we are not so good when it comes to listening.
In fact, studies on listening skills indicate that typical adults only listen to between 30 to 50% of what is being said.
so how about the kids? can't be anywhere near 100%, right?
actually both my kids tried it on me before, saying that \"teacher didn't teach.. so dunno how to do..\"
i just tell them nicely, Maybe she did teach, but you weren't paying attention at that time?
and there's no way they could dispute that.. because they KNOW there IS no way they could have been paying 100% attention... ]]]]]]]]]
when i quoted vks2010, i even highlighted the part about the kids which i agree on. i didn't even mention the parents. vks2010 did, and he has the actual personal experience to back his statement up.
so actually, i'm giving BOTH sides the benefit of the doubt. and personally i would not spend any of my time finding out which part the teacher didn't teach or which part my kids didn't pay attention. sounds too tedious for words. if it's given in the schools' worksheets, test papers, exams, etc. and they dunno how to do, just go find out. period. or try to answer as well as they can. get wrong oso nebbermind. as long as they have applied their thinking process to the problem, they will be able to learn from their mistakes.
i dun expect my kids to know how to answer all the challenging questions in any exams. what i'm concerned about is that they love to learn new things and are not learning just for the sake of PSLE. As long as i know my kids have their own little caches of knowledge and skills and hobbies beyond the syllabus of PSLE which they acquired out of their own initiative and interest, i'm happy.
if your kids love to learn beyond the text books, then does it matter what the text books are like in the first place? if they are interested enough to pick up a wide range of different stuff beyond the text books & syllabus, then of cos they would \"naturally know\" most of the things tested; they don't even have to be bright. (ok, this is jmho.)
Eg. everyone knows the only way to be good at English is to read more books right? same thing in chinese - 多读课外书. do they only test vocab or phrases from English text books? do they only allow students to use what vocab/phrases are found in text books to write compositions? i doubt. to me, it's the same with every subject.
(hey.. actually i can also complain.. how come some kids take the initiative to learn so many things out of PSLE syllabus, and MOE nebber bother to test those things??? then actually the PSLE is not fair to them right?? it's only good for those muggers who know the syllabus inside out and go for tuition to perfect their exam skills, what?? ...ok now i really must siam oredi... guess i just like asking for trouble once in a while kekeke.... :rotflmao: )
ok, just to add, i have no doubt that some parents DO really have good reason to be unhappy with Education in singapore. i have no doubt you are an impartial observer to your kids' education, and that people like you, BeContented, cherryc.. etc put your kids in neighbourhood schools in good faith and came away disillusioned because your kids are not stretched to the best of their abilites.
but then there are also parents whose kids are in some of the most sought-after schools in singapore, some in GEP even, and still end up sending them for tuition after tuition. (which, incidentally, is what this thread is all about in the first place)
and then again, there is Lim Jeck, came from a Neighbourhood School, not even GEP background, no formal math olympiad training in primary school, but fuelled by his own interest and aspirations, has been aceing every MO he went for, and is now 2nd in the WORLD in last year's International Maths Olympiad.
Dun mean to offend anyone or directing this at ANYONE. After all, everyone should know best about their own case. I'm just sharing my own POV and trying to see things more from both sides. -
jtoh:
yay! i wan to join jtoh's group ~
I'll add in one more group to BeContented's original 3 groups:Intermezzo:
actually i very much wonder where would Jtoh fit in..? because i'm pretty sure she doesn't fall into any of these groups above...
Group 1 : kiasu and educated and know-how-to-teach parents
- will still be busy enriching their children.....cannot relax, must be on your toes, cannot be lazy/bochup, must do your best. With more time now, let's accelerate!!! Must make sure can cover everything.
Group 2 : bo-chup and clueless parents
- with no timeline (or at least much later) will be more relax. Since school result is good (no difficult paper), no need tuition lah. Also no idea how the child is doing in school or how prepared is the child for the BIG streaming at 16.
Group 3 : somewhat kiasu but may not know what to do parents
- will start wondering where their kids stand. How to find out? What if the child end up bottom at 16yo? How to make sure they get to good schools when time comes? Start hearing from grapevine the rich & smart are having enrichment, go for IQ test, able to get hold of good resources. Then start enrolling into enrichments to make sure their kids are not left behind.
Group 4: Interested but not overly kancheong parents
- Interested in what's going on but also accepts reality of kids' ability.
There are a number of Group 4 parents on the forum.