Real reason behind Singapore’s obsession with tuition
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buds:
The only time i recall one form teacher who teaches all except MT is at P1 level. In some schools, the same form teacher follow up with the same class in P2 and still continue to have the teacher teach EMS. Subsequent years, a different teacher for every subject.
Lucky you! My DS has not been that fortunate. In his school, with the exception of P5, his form teachers taught him EMS including his final P6 year.
In my DD's school it is also similar. So far, its EMS with the exception of P4. This year, P5, her form teacher also takes her EMS.
Whether official policy or not, principal-driven or not, it's happening and I've spoken with the P & VPs, they tell me all the politically correct answers \"Teachers are expected to be able to teach EMS at primary school if required. Of course, there are teachers who request not to....blah blah blah.\"
At my DD's school, Science results have been dropping worse than stock market. I had a heart to heart talk with P to get in Specialists to help Parents & KIds because the school had been left without Science HOD for 2 years. For one of the SA, the highest score in my DD's cohort was 84, and you can imagine the percentage of kids who failed that exam. I could tell that Science teaching was dropping seriously. Was anything done? Nothing. They continue to test at very high standards but teaching is not adequate.
We have had many successful partnerships with Principals and teachers from both the schools my girls have attended/is currently still attending.
I've been involved in my kids' school as well, and of course, some Ps are more open to suggestions on curriculum & teaching. If they don't want you to interfere, they will have good PR skills to ward off your suggestions. With my kids failing at school or grades dropping like stock market, I had consult the Specialists whom I have to pay for.
I'm not a grades-crazy kind of parent. I also didn't believe in tuition. I wanted to believe in the school system. But when my kids started to fail or get borderline grades from P3, and I had to use Grammar Handbooks, Science Handbooks, pay Specialists' Consultants to get learning done, I'm getting really pissed. I feel blessed we're not so poor that we can't afford tuition but with 4 kids, it's definitely a huge financial burden. I speak up for those who can't afford. What about them? -
:goodpost: beanbear !
I just want to add our experience regarding teacher specialisation :
My ds is current year P6. For his cohort, there are some classes with different teachers teaching E/M/S (ie. specialised) and two classes with 1 teacher teaching EMS. DS from P1-P6, his form teacher teaches EMS. So even within the SAME school, there could be different mode of resource allocation.
Hence, I totally agree whether policy or other reasons, it is happening.
Also totally agree some Principals are more open to suggestions on curriculum & teaching than others. As an off-topic example, over the past few years, a group of parents including myself, have politely requested the school to release marks of compo paper and oral components taken by the children during exams. We spoke to HOD, VP, P....we were politely warded off/stalled. As of the recent P6 SA1 exam, the pupils still do not get the marks (they get a 5marks difference range. eg. 45-50). They also do not get to see the compo paper they did after the exams. As I've asked in other thread, why make the children take an exam and not release their score, or let them see the paper to see where they've gone wrong ? Makes absolutely no sense to me.
I accept that there are constraints but I see opportunities for MOE or schools as a whole to leverage off each other : why is it some schools can workaround constraints and some can't ?
Thinking alound on this issue of tuition, competition to get to \"good\" Secondary schools etc : Currently, GE and mainstream pupils results are taken as a whole for standard deviation and t-score computation. If MOE work out a way to compute the t-score within the mainstream only, will it result in a \"fairer\" t-score within the mainstream and take some pressure off the rat race and tuition scene ? -
there is no MOE policy on subject specialization, NEITHER is there MOE mandatory policy on teaching multiple subjects, viz EMS. Handling EMS by a single teacher could be the fancy of some principals but it does not mean every school is doing it or at every level, nor it is a policy
Also, subject specialization is not equal to non-multiple subject teaching
between black and white there are multiple shades of grey
to say that MOE has a policy that the teachers must handle multiple subjects a matter of policy is utter rubbish. as a policy, if not sure, don’t say it is policy. please don’t mislead other readers who are not well informed or who is not aware that principal has discretion …
please don’t ascribe speculation or personal impression or specific circumstances to be MOE policy, unless you are sure and dead certain it is a policy. I find it very detestable and very misleading
bullshit may be vulgar but not profane, it is impolite to some and it does not pretend to sugar coat the nonsense -
pixiedust:
That is totally irresponsible not to be able to see where the mistakes are and where the improvements need to be made. The principal probably knows the teachers are just simply any how mark the test papers ?
As an off-topic example, over the past few years, a group of parents including myself, have politely requested the school to release marks of compo paper and oral components taken by the children during exams. We spoke to HOD, VP, P....we were politely warded off/stalled. As of the recent P6 SA1 exam, the pupils still do not get the marks (they get a 5marks difference range. eg. 45-50). They also do not get to see the compo paper they did after the exams. As I've asked in other thread, why make the children take an exam and not release their score, or let them see the paper to see where they've gone wrong ? Makes absolutely no sense to me.
There are tow things here : (1) not able to learn from mistakes; and (2) not able to know whether the papers were correctly marked, hence possibly reinforcing learning of wrong things.
This is a dangerous school to be in. Best practice is to be able to discuss the scoring in each component so that effort could be put in the right component to improve learning. This is widely know that many schools do go into such details, each component's strength and weakness exhibited by the studentspixiedust:
The constraints is the ability of the principal to plan and their admin manager's experience / ability in the time tabling between subjects / teachers.I accept that there are constraints but I see opportunities for MOE or schools as a whole to leverage off each other : why is it some schools can workaround constraints and some can't ?
pixiedust:
GEP students have no advantage of mainstream students in PSLE. If anything they are at a disadvantage because they only start to focus on PSLE preparation after P6 SA1. In terms of t-score, they sit the same papers as the mainstream students, and being GEP does not necessarily be scoring higher than mainstream. As a matter of fact, many GEP kids score lower than many mainstream students. The 'pressure' is perceived, not real. Every kid fits onto a point on the normal distribution curveThinking alound on this issue of tuition, competition to get to \"good\" Secondary schools etc : Currently, GE and mainstream pupils results are taken as a whole for standard deviation and t-score computation. If MOE work out a way to compute the t-score within the mainstream only, will it result in a \"fairer\" t-score within the mainstream and take some pressure off the rat race and tuition scene ?
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oxyleo:
:goodpost:It is evident not everyone's experiences are the same. Do note we may all be comparing experiences occurring within different timelines. Some of us have kids who are already working adults. Some have kids who are too young or in lower pri to even fathom the stress encountered in upp Pri. Some don't even get involved with teaching their children. Hopefully we can all try to understand from the experiences shared by everyone here in its rightful context.
If we are always stuck in an air-con room, it's going to be difficult to understand someone's complaint about the horrific sweltering heat.
If we are used to driving or being chauffeured around, it is going to be difficult to understand why some people complain about bus delays in the sweltering heat. We may want to try it for ourselves first before brushing it off as a complaint. It is also way different if you are dressed in exercise gear for a leisurely run, and shower thereafter, vs perspiring in the heat when you are dressed in work attire heading for the next 10 hours of work. Very, very different experiences.
If we visit The Marketplace at Tanglin Mall for weekly grocery shopping, we are not going to understand why everyone else seems to complain how overcrowded every other mall seems to be on weekends.
there is no policy that says every supermarket has to be like Tanglin Mall, is there ?
there is no policy that says going to work must take bus, is there ? there is also no policy that says must shop at Tanglin Mall or NTUC
if you take bus, please don't say it is a policy to take bus
if you are chauffeured, don't say it is a policy not to take bus
it is absurd that people can ascribe it to MOE policy when it is very much principal's discretion and decision point, and then everything is MOE's fault again -
verykiasu2010:
I must agree with vks2010.
GEP students have no advantage of mainstream students in PSLE. If anything they are at a disadvantage because they only start to focus on PSLE preparation after P6 SA1. In terms of t-score, they sit the same papers as the mainstream students, and being GEP does not necessarily be scoring higher than mainstream. As a matter of fact, many GEP kids score lower than many mainstream students. The 'pressure' is perceived, not real. Every kid fits onto a point on the normal distribution curvepixiedust:
Thinking alound on this issue of tuition, competition to get to \"good\" Secondary schools etc : Currently, GE and mainstream pupils results are taken as a whole for standard deviation and t-score computation. If MOE work out a way to compute the t-score within the mainstream only, will it result in a \"fairer\" t-score within the mainstream and take some pressure off the rat race and tuition scene ?
Whether there is GEP or not, these kids are already supposed to be the 'smarter' lot. There's only 1% of them & taking them out will not give a true indication of how the kids really perform. It's like let's take china out of the olympics table-tennis competitions...... :siam: -
verykiasu2010:
...That is totally irresponsible not to be able to see where the mistakes are and where the improvements need to be made. The principal probably knows the teachers are just simply any how mark the test papers ? ...........This is a dangerous school to be in.......
Well, whoever has the power to make the decision probably doesn't think it is irresponsible, or has other \"constraints\". I've checked with my friends, some of their kids school return the paper to the children in class (but not allowed to bring home) and also release the score, but there is ONE other school which also refuses to release the mark and return the paper so our school is not the only one. One of my friends even wrote to the new Education Minister on this.
Again, policy or whatnot, this is what is happening.
Why must parents fight these \"wars\" with the schools ?
No, I don't expect all supermarkets to be Tanglin Mall Market Place.
but for government primary schools, I would expect all to have similar framework eg. NTUC. I can accept services and selection may be better at certain branches, there should be a baseline that all should cover. Like some kind of \"standard of business operation\".
If we have Tanglin Mall Market Place and wet markets, then can we shake our fingers at those who don't stay near Tanglin Mall and had to go to wet markets, and consequently denied access to some resources/knowledge, to want to go tuition ? -
pixiedust:
the non returning of test papers, release scores only based on banding, to me, an old fashioned person, is totally irresponsible and really warrant a petition to MOE that this warrant a standard policy decision.verykiasu2010:
...That is totally irresponsible not to be able to see where the mistakes are and where the improvements need to be made. The principal probably knows the teachers are just simply any how mark the test papers ? ...........This is a dangerous school to be in.......
Well, whoever has the power to make the decision probably doesn't think it is irresponsible, or has other \"constraints\". I've checked with my friends, some of their kids school return the paper to the children in class (but not allowed to bring home) and also release the score, but there is ONE other school which also refuses to release the mark and return the paper so our school is not the only one. One of my friends even wrote to the new Education Minister on this.
Again, policy or whatnot, this is what is happening.
Why must parents fight these \"wars\" with the schools ?
No, I don't expect all supermarkets to be Tanglin Mall Market Place.
but for government primary schools, I would expect all to have similar framework eg. NTUC. I can accept services and selection may be better at certain branches, there should be a baseline that all should cover. Like some kind of \"standard of business operation\".
If we have Tanglin Mall Market Place and wet markets, then can we shake our fingers at those who don't stay near Tanglin Mall and had to go to wet markets, and consequently denied access to some resources/knowledge, to want to go tuition ?
Especially at the first 12 years of education when students need solid grounding of principles and concepts, they need to know where they make mistakes and how to improve from them. Even teachers make mistakes in marking at times. Students need to know where they got it wrong and where they got it right. The worst scenario is the blind leading the blind.
It is precisely because of this (and other issues), some schools are more equal than others even though they are the 'same'. But this is just as in PSLE, as the normal distribution curve shows the spread of the different level of students' scores, so there is also normal distribution of principal's ability and strength. Some are more able to motivate, understand what / how things work and get the best out of the situation / teachers / constraints .... while some try to reinvent the wheel to see whether it could be made rounder by doing fancy stuff. -
One of the reasons why schools refuse/reluntant to return graded exam papers or individual marks for some items back to students is becos the schools want to avoid/minimise those marks to be challenged by the parents. The schools and the teachers must be very confident of their grading and be prepared to defend their grading (or be brave to admit their grading mistakes).
My dd’s school release all the papers and detailed marks. But the school also has to handle the parents’ queries and feedback. For oral, there are parents who challenge the teachers on why so and so can get one mark more than their dd. For compo, the parents also challenge (the school also releases the compo by the top scorer). The same apply to Science and Maths papers. Last year, the teachers re-graded the science paper after feedback from parents.
I can understand the dilemma the schools and teachers are in. Hopefully, all the schools and teachers do think that returning the papers back to the students is important as it forms a feedback loop of the students’ learning. Hopefully, we parents can also be kinder to the teachers and trust/respect their professionalism in grading. -
alng:
:goodpost:One of the reasons why schools refuse/reluntant to return graded exam papers or individual marks for some items back to students is becos the schools want to avoid/minimise those marks to be challenged by the parents. The schools and the teachers must be very confident of their grading and be prepared to defend their grading (or be brave to admit their grading mistakes).
My dd's school release all the papers and detailed marks. But the school also has to handle the parents' queries and feedback. For oral, there are parents who challenge the teachers on why so and so can get one mark more than their dd. For compo, the parents also challenge (the school also releases the compo by the top scorer). The same apply to Science and Maths papers. Last year, the teachers re-graded the science paper after feedback from parents.
I can understand the dilemma the schools and teachers are in. Hopefully, all the schools and teachers do think that returning the papers back to the students is important as it forms a feedback loop of the students' learning. Hopefully, we parents can also be kinder to the teachers and trust/respect their professionalism in grading.
it takes a very enlightened school management to do that, and fortunately many schools do that