P2 Math - General Discussion

[clare]

tamarind:

There were 51 passengers in a bus. Some passengers alighted at the first bus stop. How many passengers alighted at the first bus stop if 39 passengers were left in the bus ?

My five year-old answered this in a flash by thinking of 50 minus 40 first and then adding the two ones that were left out. :roll: Incidentally, he has no clue how to do long addition/subtraction, carrying over etc, so I guess intuition kicked in.
I sincerely hope the kids don't have to show any kind of working for this type of questions, or he will get zero marks for it.

Just asked my friend, who's a primary school math HOD, about the word 'alighted' used in this question. According to him, the question has already provided a clue in the words 'left in the bus', so even if the kids do not know the word alighted they can guess the meaning. And that's exactly what my son did...

[metz]

clare:

My five year-old answered this in a flash by thinking of 50 minus 40 first and then adding the two ones that were left out. :roll: Incidentally, he has no clue how to do long addition/subtraction, carrying over etc, so I guess intuition kicked in.
I sincerely hope the kids don't have to show any kind of working for this type of questions, or he will get zero marks for it.

Just asked my friend, who's a primary school math HOD, about the word 'alighted' used in this question. According to him, the question has already provided a clue in the words 'left in the bus', so even if the kids do not know the word alighted they can guess the meaning. And that's exactly what my son did...

He only has to write down how he derived it, i.e 51-39 = 50-40+2. Your son is great in Math. Was he attending preschool in US?

The school textbook does teach P1 kids to add/subtract in a way (regrouping) similar to your ds' method, i.e 50 =50+1 but not 39=40-1.

Mine faces the same problem of not showing workings. But, I suppose this issue would be quite common, especially for those kids who do abacus or other Math enrichments...

tamarind:

Are the teachers trying to test the students' English or Maths ?

It's definitely a test on English, starting from Primary 1. The Bus question is considered relatively straightforward. Some questions can be really tough as they require the kids to work out 2-3 steps of workings before getting the answers.

Another important part of Math is using the Model method to solve questions. A good foundation in that will help save tons of headaches later on in upper primary.

[joconde]

[quote]
tamarind wrote : Why use the word \"alighted\" ? My english standard is not very high. So I don't expect a P1 student to know what is \"alighted\". Why not just use \"got off\" the bus ?

Also why use \"first bus stop\" ? Why not just use \"a bus stop\" ? The word \"first\" only makes the question more confusing. We are talking about 7 year old children here.[/quote]I agree w tamarind that such question is not appropriate. Even if the sch is trying to screen high-ability students, there should be better way than trying to mislead students by twisting the words. It's just so stupid ! I wonder what effect on our kids will there be by exposing them to such questions over 6 yrs of pri schooling. They may grow up unable to speak/write in a clear, consise manner.

BTW, I expose my P5 son to IQ quizzes and brain teasers since young, and I believe tat helps build his ability to solve such trick questions.

[tamarind]

ChiefKiasu:

tamarind:

...Are the teachers trying to test the students' English or Maths ?...

Unfortunately, such questions are the norm rather than the exception. And it only gets worse up the ladder. That's why English is such an important subject for Primary schools.

I have no doubt that English is important. However, that is a maths test and it should be measuring the student's ability in maths, not english. A student who is very good in maths, but not good in english, would not have done well in that paper. That paper would have wrongly identified the ability of students.




EN,
I was only looking at the SA1 test paper of RGPS in 2006. I thought the questions are very reasonable for P1 students. I don't see any question difficult enough to identify the cream of the crop. West Grove is a neighbourhood school. Many children in the HDB heartland do not attend any enrichment classes before they enter P1. The principal mentioned that there are children who cannot read English at all when they entered P1. They need parent volunteers to help teach these children to read. They don't need maths paper with a few very difficult questions to identify high ability children.

Actually I am interested in this topic, not primarily because of my children, but also because I am teaching maths to young adults now, and I am wondering what went wrong in the system that they have been through. I feel that the system should be more concerned about making sure that maths is properly taught to all children, and that all children have a good foundation in basic maths before proceeding to higher learning.

A school producing some students with very good results, does not mean that it is a good school. The students who do well are most likely those who can afford to go to enrichment classes like the Learning Lab, so the good results are not an indication of how good the teachers are. I will only be impressed by a school where every student gets A for maths in PSLE. This is possible if the weaker students are given one to one attention by the teachers.

I remember listening to a lecturer who is very experienced in teaching French. She was answering the question : \"Is it possible to get perfect marks for a test in English or French ? \" Most people answered no. But she said yes. She said that if the student is able to write an English or French essay, make no grammatical mistakes, the structure and contents meet the standard of his level, then he should be given the full marks.

I feel the same for maths, especially in lower primary level. If a P1 student knows all the topics in the P1 syllabus, then he is good enough, and he deserves the full marks. If the whole class deserves full marks, then everyone should get full marks.

What is the purpose of identifying those few students who are the cream of the crop ? They are already good enough. They don't need any more help. Principals and teachers should be more concerned about identifying the weakest students and giving them more help.

[tamarind]

Another question, also from Nanyang. P1 exam.


http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b324/tamarind/maths_problem_34.jpg\">

The answer is 40 - 10 = 30.

I am not experienced with maths puzzles :oops: I thought the answer is not logical.

Although there are clues :
50 - 20 = 30
50 - 40 = 10

But if we put 30 in that circle, on the other side, 20 - 30 does not give 30.

Are maths puzzles supposed to be like this ?

[jedamum]

tamarind:

Are maths puzzles supposed to be like this ?

tamarind, this is a form of 'number patterns' questions.
the answer can be derived from 50+30+10=90; 20+40+ ? =90; ? = 90-40-20 = 30.

chamonix:

He only has to write down how he derived it, i.e 51-39 = 50-40+2. Your son is great in Math. Was he attending preschool in US?

The school textbook does teach P1 kids to add/subtract in a way (regrouping) similar to your ds' method, i.e 50 =50+1 but not 39=40-1.

Mine faces the same problem of not showing workings. But, I suppose this issue would be quite common, especially for those kids who do abacus or other Math enrichments...

number bond method of 50-39 is
50* - 39** = (40-30)+(10-9) = 10+1 = 11
*40+10 **30+9

If the syllabus teaches numberbonds subtraction, i think some teacher may not give full marks for using other methods of working like in abacus method regardless if the answer is correct. They may even deduct half a mark if they are so particular.

I think school teachers will deduct marks for not showing workings. I even heard of them deducting marks for not labelling the workings properly (ie not writing down the key words).

[ChiefKiasu]

tamarind:

...The answer is 40 - 10 = 30.


I am not experienced with maths puzzles :oops: I thought the answer is not logical.

Although there are clues :
50 - 20 = 30
50 - 40 = 10

But if we put 30 in that circle, on the other side, 20 - 30 does not give 30.

Are maths puzzles supposed to be like this ?

The answer should be 90-40-20 = 30

The sum of the connected vertices is equal to 90.

The kids will be used to these \"puzzles\" from P1 onwards.

[clare]

chamonix:

He only has to write down how he derived it, i.e 51-39 = 50-40+2. Your son is great in Math. Was he attending preschool in US?

Hello Chamonix
Yes, my DS attended preschool in the US but only for a year (we started late) before we went back to Singapore for a while. Right now he's in kindergarten in the US. Actually, I can't tell if he's good in math; he's capable of saying he doesn't know what 4+5 is :shock: But once in a while he will surprise me by proclaiming that since 6+6=12, then 8+6 is just 2 more than 6+6 so the answer is 12+2...
He will probably not do well in the Singapore system if schools are so rigid about presenting the right workings... bah!

How do you encourage your child to show the related workings?

[clare]

tamarind:

What is the purpose of identifying those few students who are the cream of the crop ? They are already good enough. They don't need any more help. Principals and teachers should be more concerned about identifying the weakest students and giving them more help.

My dear HOD friend told me that for his school (can't name it here but it's one of the so-called top schools), the teachers set difficult papers with the purpose of identifying the weaker students, so they can give them extra coaching. Er, I wonder if he was just giving me the politically correct answer or it's really true... hmm.

[mwchua]

hi all,


I tried accessing the website http://www.misskoh.com.sg but could no longer get the website.

Any idea where this webiste has been shifted to ?

Many thanks for your help.

Rgds.
Ming