P2 Math - General Discussion
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I didn't buy and simply downloaded from http://www.misskoh.com.sg. They have the top school and some neighbour school papers there.
Also, was kiasu previously and bought assessment of all sorts. Then realised that not all assessment are great so end up alot of assessments are untouch and we didn't have the time to do all anyway. This year, I only buy selectively eg. I just got the Andrew Er for maths, eph assessment (all in 1) for english. Personally found eph assessment better esp the book that has grammar, vocab, grammar and vocab cloze, comprehensive, compo, listing comprehension, etc... Used that as last minute revision for my girl's SA2 and she had 54/55 for her main paper. A significant improvement. -
EN,
I also looked at the SA1 papers from RGPS, Tao Nan, and Pei Chun. None of the schools require the students to subtract two double digit numbers greater than 20. That's why I thought it is not normal for Nanyang to set this question.
The problem with Nanyang primary school setting this type of question, is that they will only prompt parents to send their kids to more maths enrichment classes to prepare their kids well !
I don't think that bus question is a good question that requires higher order thinking. That question requires a very good command of English. I think the following question is better. It is also from Nanyang.![](\"http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b324/tamarind/P1_maths.jpg\")
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b324/tamarind/P1_maths.jpg\">
I feel that a good school should not be so concerned with identifying the cream of the crop. These students are only at P1 ! The school should be more concerned with making sure that all their students have a good understanding of basic maths.
I am teaching young adult students Calculus. Some of them cannot even divide 2 simple fractions. Something is wrong with our education system.
jedamum,
I think that question is badly written. Even as an adult, I need to read it 2 times to understand what it is asking.
The question I posted :
There were 51 passengers in a bus. Some passengers alighted at the first bus stop. How many passengers alighted at the first bus stop if 39 passengers were left in the bus ?
I realized that it is much more important to make sure that our kids can read English very well ! Otherwise they cannot even understand the question to know that they need to do 51 - 39 !
Why use the word \"alighted\" ? My english standard is not very high. So I don't expect a P1 student to know what is \"alighted\". Why not just use \"got off\" the bus ?
Also why use \"first bus stop\" ? Why not just use \"a bus stop\" ? The word \"first\" only makes the question more confusing. We are talking about 7 year old children here.
sleepy,
You can also download from http://www.test-paper.info.
I feel that doing exam papers set by elite schools is better than doing assessment books. Those schools are experts in producing top students, right ?
Actually I am not going to make my kids do these papers lah. I am just doing research for my own knowledge only. I am trying to get an idea about how to prepare my kids before they enter P1. There are many ways to teach a child maths. I am not keen to use the assessment book method. -
tamarind:
...Are the teachers trying to test the students' English or Maths ?...
Unfortunately, such questions are the norm rather than the exception. And it only gets worse up the ladder. That's why English is such an important subject for Primary schools. -
ChiefKiasu:
English is an even more important subject for Secondary schools. You need a good command of English to score in subjects like Literature, Geography, History and even Science.tamarind:
...Are the teachers trying to test the students' English or Maths ?...
Unfortunately, such questions are the norm rather than the exception. And it only gets worse up the ladder. That's why English is such an important subject for Primary schools. -
Tamarind, my dd is in RGPS. It was a long talk I had with her form teacher that reveals at least 3 questions will be set for higher order thinking.
Do also note, when I go through math revision with my daughter, I found that the school ensures everyone is subjected to higher order type of questions. If you have bought math book for your child for P1, there are some questions that are mark with *. In RGPS, there is no exception. All students need to learn & answer them.
However, in my ds school, only those in the top 3 classes will enjoy doing such problem sum. Those in average classes will not. That was the information that I have gotten from the talk given by the teachers. The problem with ds school is, the papers are too easy. So, when they pick up the supposedly cream of the crop, these are the students that are either hot house or not prone to careless mistakes.
My ds obtain 90+ for maths but that does not mean that he is in the top 3 classes because it is already filled up with full marks or near to full marks. That means he is not able to learn higher order math which fortunately he is able to do it without me teaching him.
I read through CKS notes on how to identity types of carelessness. Yes, his problem is transfering of answer on the MCQ. EG if the MCQ is to choose A,B,C,D, my ds will write down the answer eg 38 instead of the alphabet.
So just because of his carelessness & not because of his ability, that he is deprived of such opportunities.
Tamarind wrote [quote] feel that a good school should not be so concerned with identifying the cream of the crop. These students are only at P1 ! [/quote]How do West Grove identity those in high ability & segregate them at the end of P1?
As an adult when I mark the question, I took it for granted that the question is as such. But for a higher ability students, such question is a challenge to them, which makes them think before replying. That is the reason why, his reasoning makes me re-read the question again & still not convince & take a peek at the answer provided by the book.
There is another type of question discuss in another thread that makes parents cringe. I can't exactly remember the question, but it goes something like this.
A + A = 20
A + B = 25
What is B? This is a P1 question which average students are not able to answer.
I don't mind if schools do away with such questions. But do ensure that what is being taught in school is being leveled as well.
Maybe that is one reason why certain school often ends up producing such good results as opposed to others.
CKS wrote [quote]Unfortunately, such questions are the norm rather than the exception. And it only gets worse up the ladder. That's why English is such an important subject for Primary schools.[/quote]I started to read through the math thread which are often answered quickly by Lizawa. If students grasp of English is weak, chances are, their math will suffer too. -
tamarind:
My five year-old answered this in a flash by thinking of 50 minus 40 first and then adding the two ones that were left out. :roll: Incidentally, he has no clue how to do long addition/subtraction, carrying over etc, so I guess intuition kicked in.
There were 51 passengers in a bus. Some passengers alighted at the first bus stop. How many passengers alighted at the first bus stop if 39 passengers were left in the bus ?
I sincerely hope the kids don't have to show any kind of working for this type of questions, or he will get zero marks for it.
Just asked my friend, who's a primary school math HOD, about the word 'alighted' used in this question. According to him, the question has already provided a clue in the words 'left in the bus', so even if the kids do not know the word alighted they can guess the meaning. And that's exactly what my son did... -
clare:
He only has to write down how he derived it, i.e 51-39 = 50-40+2. Your son is great in Math. Was he attending preschool in US?
My five year-old answered this in a flash by thinking of 50 minus 40 first and then adding the two ones that were left out. :roll: Incidentally, he has no clue how to do long addition/subtraction, carrying over etc, so I guess intuition kicked in.
I sincerely hope the kids don't have to show any kind of working for this type of questions, or he will get zero marks for it.
Just asked my friend, who's a primary school math HOD, about the word 'alighted' used in this question. According to him, the question has already provided a clue in the words 'left in the bus', so even if the kids do not know the word alighted they can guess the meaning. And that's exactly what my son did...
The school textbook does teach P1 kids to add/subtract in a way (regrouping) similar to your ds' method, i.e 50 =50+1 but not 39=40-1.
Mine faces the same problem of not showing workings. But, I suppose this issue would be quite common, especially for those kids who do abacus or other Math enrichments...tamarind:
It's definitely a test on English, starting from Primary 1. The Bus question is considered relatively straightforward. Some questions can be really tough as they require the kids to work out 2-3 steps of workings before getting the answers.Are the teachers trying to test the students' English or Maths ?
Another important part of Math is using the Model method to solve questions. A good foundation in that will help save tons of headaches later on in upper primary. -
[quote]
tamarind wrote : Why use the word \"alighted\" ? My english standard is not very high. So I don't expect a P1 student to know what is \"alighted\". Why not just use \"got off\" the bus ?
Also why use \"first bus stop\" ? Why not just use \"a bus stop\" ? The word \"first\" only makes the question more confusing. We are talking about 7 year old children here.[/quote]I agree w tamarind that such question is not appropriate. Even if the sch is trying to screen high-ability students, there should be better way than trying to mislead students by twisting the words. It's just so stupid ! I wonder what effect on our kids will there be by exposing them to such questions over 6 yrs of pri schooling. They may grow up unable to speak/write in a clear, consise manner.
BTW, I expose my P5 son to IQ quizzes and brain teasers since young, and I believe tat helps build his ability to solve such trick questions. -
ChiefKiasu:
I have no doubt that English is important. However, that is a maths test and it should be measuring the student's ability in maths, not english. A student who is very good in maths, but not good in english, would not have done well in that paper. That paper would have wrongly identified the ability of students.tamarind:
...Are the teachers trying to test the students' English or Maths ?...
Unfortunately, such questions are the norm rather than the exception. And it only gets worse up the ladder. That's why English is such an important subject for Primary schools.
EN,
I was only looking at the SA1 test paper of RGPS in 2006. I thought the questions are very reasonable for P1 students. I don't see any question difficult enough to identify the cream of the crop. West Grove is a neighbourhood school. Many children in the HDB heartland do not attend any enrichment classes before they enter P1. The principal mentioned that there are children who cannot read English at all when they entered P1. They need parent volunteers to help teach these children to read. They don't need maths paper with a few very difficult questions to identify high ability children.
Actually I am interested in this topic, not primarily because of my children, but also because I am teaching maths to young adults now, and I am wondering what went wrong in the system that they have been through. I feel that the system should be more concerned about making sure that maths is properly taught to all children, and that all children have a good foundation in basic maths before proceeding to higher learning.
A school producing some students with very good results, does not mean that it is a good school. The students who do well are most likely those who can afford to go to enrichment classes like the Learning Lab, so the good results are not an indication of how good the teachers are. I will only be impressed by a school where every student gets A for maths in PSLE. This is possible if the weaker students are given one to one attention by the teachers.
I remember listening to a lecturer who is very experienced in teaching French. She was answering the question : \"Is it possible to get perfect marks for a test in English or French ? \" Most people answered no. But she said yes. She said that if the student is able to write an English or French essay, make no grammatical mistakes, the structure and contents meet the standard of his level, then he should be given the full marks.
I feel the same for maths, especially in lower primary level. If a P1 student knows all the topics in the P1 syllabus, then he is good enough, and he deserves the full marks. If the whole class deserves full marks, then everyone should get full marks.
What is the purpose of identifying those few students who are the cream of the crop ? They are already good enough. They don't need any more help. Principals and teachers should be more concerned about identifying the weakest students and giving them more help. -
Another question, also from Nanyang. P1 exam.
![](\"http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b324/tamarind/maths_problem_34.jpg\")
The answer is 40 - 10 = 30.
I am not experienced with maths puzzles :oops: I thought the answer is not logical.
Although there are clues :
50 - 20 = 30
50 - 40 = 10
But if we put 30 in that circle, on the other side, 20 - 30 does not give 30.
Are maths puzzles supposed to be like this ?
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