ynwa9\" post_id=\"2128151\" time=\"1706507871\" user_id=\"48765:

Does anyone have an idea as to how many boys get admitted yearly into ACS (I)'s IP from the O level track in year 3? Mostly from ACS(I) or are there some from other schools too?

Don't think it can be more than 60 or so, based on the number of IP classes in Y3 compared to Y2. But ACS(I) has of course got a lot of leeway in internal transfers. I don't have detailed data.

lee_yl\" post_id=\"2128080\" time=\"1706365218\" user_id=\"17023:

Of cos I need to clarify because you are not answering direct to the questions posted by USAIK881.

The distribution of local IB students is not as exclusive nowadays with more S’poreans opting to join international schools like SJI International. Take SJI International for example, its average IB score is 36.7 for 2023 and HCIS is even better with 57% of its students scoring at least 38pts. These international schools are definitely not as selective or the students as academically strong as the traditional MOE IB schools.

The comparison between H2 Chemistry paper and IB Chemistry HL paper is not equivalent simply because the paper designed for the former is targeted at the local student population whereas the latter is targeted at a global student population whose academic level is admittedly below Singapore’s. Moreover even at HL standard the depth covered still pales when compared to H2. As a former educator you should know this very well.

I don’t think studying 6 subjects is as time-consuming or complex as portrayed. After all, at A-levels there is also GP, Project Work and Mother Tongue to handle.
Moreover, many 16-year olds in Singapore study 8 or more subjects at O-levels. Again, if the average student in SJI International or HCIS can score better than IB36 points, it does tell you how attainable it is.

Interestingly, I just realized that only 58% of RI students scored at least 3 H2 distinctions in 2022 A-levels. In comparison, 57% of HCIS students scored at least IB38. This statistic is very glaring.

I believe I have answered usaik881's question as far as it can be answered. You just don't like my answers.

Yes, I have freely admitted that the Chem H2 paper is tougher than the Chem HL paper. That doesn't necessarily mean that getting 3 H2 distinctions is necessarily harder than getting 36 points for the IB exams (note, the original question mentioned AAA inc chemistry, and ignored GP/PW/L2). 580 RJC students per year may have cruised to their grades, while 60 HCIS students may have cruised to theirs. Or not. We just don't know. Hence my answer has always been a personal one: I think it is easier to get 3 H2 distinctions, personally, and I have reasons for it. You don't think so, you have reasons for it. Great!

As for schools outside scope of discussion, consider that the ACS(Independent) cohort alone is larger than the HCIS and SJI(Int'l) cohorts combined. Percentages are cool, but numbers are better.

I have nothing more to add, and I think that ACS(Independent) parents who read through this interesting discussion should probably have enough information to decide if they have made the right choice or not.

lee_yl\" post_id=\"2128065\" time=\"1706340528\" user_id=\"17023:

Interesting to see how the grounds have shifted from the original question posed about “which is easier to score IB36pts or AAA” to the current claim that it is easier to explain how to score AAA than to explain how to score IB36 points. I doubt there are many parents interested to know how to explain how to score IB36 points.

I think readers here have to read with care. I did point out that IB36 is considered a below-average score in Singapore’s context whereas a below-average A level student’s result is definitely not AAA,

The advice to go for AAA before attempting IB36pts, just means it is more straightforward (as in direct, uncomplicated), but it doesn’t mean easy. So everyone shouldn’t be confused.

I'm glad you have clarified your position.

I will just clarify mine.

1. Please do quote the original question, by all means.

2. I will reiterate, the distribution of IB results in SG is skewed by the selectivity of the IB programmes in SOTA, SJI (Independent) and ACS(Independent); they skew high because the students are good. Similarly, the distribution of A-level results in SG is skewed by lower selectivity; the COP for the JC/MI population as a whole is equivalent to lower entry point than for the majority of the IB population. So we cannot use the relative grade distribution compared directly between A-level institutions and IB institutions in the MOE system.

3. I agree AAA is not easier as in requiring less mental effort on a 1-to-1 basis; having taught both, I can say it appears to require more mental effort to get 70%+ for A-level Chem H2 than to get 70%+ for IB Chem HL (grade 6+, normally). Whether it is easier to score A for Chem H2 or a 7 for Chem HL is harder to judge; a 7 for Chem HL is normally around 85%+, whereas we don't know how much higher than 70% any given A-level A grade is.

4. However, as the original question is phrased by you, this is a comparison between AAA and 36 points, not AAA and 777. You get AAA (strictly speaking) by studying 3 subjects and getting 70%+ for each of them; you get 36 points in the IB by studying 6 subjects, and doing well enough to pass TOK, EE and CAS. It is more complicated, and in terms of hours spent, is likely to be harder because of that; time taken and complexity of time management must be a factor too.

I don't think our positions are irreconcilable or completely at odds. I just think the nature of the comparison (part of an A-level cert vs a complete IB diploma, different student distributions leading to different outcome distributions) makes it difficult to provide an uncomplicated answer.

lee_yl\" post_id=\"2128059\" time=\"1706322501\" user_id=\"17023:

Disingenuous to redefine ‘straightforward’ to separate out the concepts of simple, uncomplicated and easy to suit the narrative. However, there’s a conventional definition of the word, straightforward and I refer to its Oxford definition:

”uncomplicated and easy to do or understand”

You are free to make it less straightforward. But I will agree with you and say that the methods by which one can obtain AAA including A for Chemistry in the SG-Cambridge A-levels are less complicated, and easier to do or understand, than obtaining 36 points for the IB Diploma. If you reflect on the actions required, you will understand it too. Having taught both courses, I have practical experience in these matters. You can do that too!

As for 'conventional definition', even those can be chosen to fit a narrative. Here is the https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/straightforward:
[quote]1a : free from evasiveness or obscurity : EXACT, CANDID
1b : CLEAR-CUT, PRECISE

2: proceeding in a straight course or manner : DIRECT, UNDEVIATING[/quote]I'd say that this is the definition I was using. The A-levels are certainly more direct and clear-cut. We don't have to resort to using terms like 'disingenuous', one faint shade of nuance away from accusations of dishonesty.

lee_yl\" post_id=\"2128024\" time=\"1706254395\" user_id=\"17023:

What to you is straightforward and what is easy? The academic effort required or the choices to be made? Do you mean to say that scoring IB 36 points is not straightforward because there are too many subjects to choose from?

Again, if IB 36pts is considered below-average for S’pore IB students, I think most will consider it straightforward to attain such a score, no?

I think we can clarify that easily: 'straightforward' implies that there is a direct and simple route, 'easy' implies that it requires little mental or physical effort. I am saying that scoring IB 36 points requires you to study six subjects (and go through all the IB stuff), whereas getting AAA (inc Chem) requires you to study only three subjects, most likely closely related. It is a more direct approach for many. It may not be academically easy, perhaps. That is debatable, but when I said 'straightforward', I meant it: if you want to know how to get AAA for A-levels it is far easier to explain or describe than to explain how to get 36 points for IB.

Similarly, your last question can be answered 'no'. It may look easy to obtain, but it requires effort over a large range of activities, all of which are compulsory. Just because a lot of people can do it doesn't mean it is straightforward.

lee_yl\" post_id=\"2127997\" time=\"1706235169\" user_id=\"17023:

With due respect, I disagree with your claim that it is more straightforward to score AAA for local A levels than to score IB36pts. The average score for Singapore IB students was 37.76 in 2023 as compared to worldwide average of 29pts. IB 36pts is thus considered below-average in Singapore’s context. Do you think the below-average local A level score is AAA?

One very stark fact is that despite making up only a small minority of the Nov IB cohort, Singaporean students make up around 50% of the IB45 cohort. Our students are from a very different academic league as compared the global IB student population.

Your theories sound fine on paper but when reality bites, you should review your assumptions and use hard facts and figures to support your claims.

Again, you should look carefully at the claim I advanced. I said that personally I would go for AAA (with Chem) rather than IB 36. Why?

1. To get an IB diploma with 36 points, I'd have to pass 6 subjects + TOK + EE + CAS. These 6 subjects would require a pass in EL/Lit as well as compulsory internal assessments. CAS includes 150 hours of non-academic work.

2. To get an AAA for Chem + 2 other H2 subjects is comparatively straightforward. You work hard. You stick to maybe PCM and thus avoid the more divergent subjects. Since AAA (inc Chem) is specified, there's no mention of L2 nor GP nor PW. Clearly this is more straightforward. I didn't say it'd be easier.

3. Let's have a look at the facts and figures. Fortunately, the IB gives full stats, unlike the local A-levels.

3.1 Link: https://ibo.org/globalassets/new-structure/about-the-ib/pdfs/dp-provisional-statistical-bulletin-november-2023.pdf. You'll see that SG competes in the Nov pool, about 16k full exam candidates, of which about a third don't get a diploma (see page 7), and another 4k students taking part-diplomas, resitting etc (breakdown on p20). About 14.5% got 35-39, 9.7% got 40-45 points, and you can see there is no obvious bell curve (see page 6). Singapore accounts for 2345 students, and thus has huge weighting; the only countries with more candidates than us are Australia and Peru; Argentina only had 1995 candidates last year. The full list of our competitors in November is on pp 21-22.

3.2 Link: https://ibo.org/globalassets/new-structure/about-the-ib/pdfs/dp-cp-final-statistical-bulletin-may-2023.pdf. You'll see that in the May pool, there're about 91k exam candidates, of which about 18k don't get a diploma (a fifth) (see page 9), and another 80k candidates doing something else (part-diplomas, resits etc; breakdown on p28). The May cohort in 2023 had 19.8% 35-39 points and 8.9% 40-45 points, also no obvious belling (see page 8). Singapore had 1894 candidates in May (yes, the 'real' international schools here, and resits). The US accounted for 90k out of 170+k total candidatures. We could maybe (I am a little dubious here) say the May pool is more representative of the global candidature, although it is hard to tell whether that distribution constitutes a fair sampling, considering it is mostly global north and US-biased by candidature.

4. I agree with you that SG students come from a very different academic league. Our previous Normal stream is global normal; by some measures, a PSLE score of 180 would have put a kid at average or above-average for the average Eurozone or US kid. The figures for either May or November show that our distribution is way different from the global, and in fact very selective.

5. That means our skew is high because half our candidates have the equivalent of a PSLE score 0f 250+, which puts them almost off the charts globally (top 10% or so, SG). However, our JC SG-Cambridge population is not skewed the same way; it has a longer and fatter tail than our local IB population. In fact, the IB population is skewed towards high performers (the big schools are IP schools) and the JC population is skewed low (bunches more towards COP). Hence the percentage getting top grades would be expected to be smaller locally for A-levels. Again, apples, durians. Based on these distributions, some random below-average IB student in SG might well be 'better' (how ever defined) than an above-average A-level student, at some part of the distribution — the distributions are just not the same.

6. So my personal conclusion that I would rather do AAA with Chem than go for 36 points IB is justifiable. After all, I have already got a degree in Chemistry, and while maybe I am a bit more well-rounded than most candidates, at my age I might prefer to study for a more narrow-focussed examination with not so many other things to worry about! To see more of those 'other things' you need only look at the links I've provided for the associated TOK and EE data, which the IB kindly displays for all of us to do due diligence in research.

(Hey, there's no call to assume I didn't do my research, you know. I've been teaching A-levels and IB and my research area includes the history of education systems. Come to one of my talks at the museum one day, it'll be fun!)

usaik881\" post_id=\"2127975\" time=\"1706181012\" user_id=\"199461:

Let us look at two fundamental facts.

The first fundamental fact is – all exams, whether locally moderated exams such as the A Levels or non-locally moderated exams such as the IB, are moderated to a Bell Curve.

The first fundamental fact => whether the A Levels is harder or easier vis-à-vis the IB depends on the degree of difficulty of the respective exams. The moderating hand of the MOE is extremely heavy. Since MOE moderates the A Levels and MOE does not moderate the IB, it is far easier to score 45 in the IB than to score 90 in the A Levels. This is the first advantage of the IB vis-à-vis the A Levels.

The second fundamental fact is – for most UK medical school admission “consideration”, the A Levels candidate needs not only AAA but also an A in Chemistry to be considered (please read very carefully, AAA with an A in Chemistry = a perfect score) whereas the IB candidate does not need a perfect score to be considered.

The second fundamental fact => the IB candidate has a less steep hill to climb to be considered for UK medical school admission. This is the second advantage of the IB vis-à-vis the A Levels.

Note well. First, nobody is saying all IB 36 pointers can get into medical school. To be considered, most medical schools also require the passing of an interview, and a good score in BMAT or UCAT. Second, nobody is saying to score 36 points in the IB is a walk in the park. All that is said is, for the average Singaporean student, the IB as it stands has real advantages vis-à-vis the A Levels. Third, nobody is saying an IB candidate eyeing a medical school education can anyhow score the 36 points. Like any game, there are rules. If the rule for medical school admission consideration says Chemistry at such a score is required, then, it is a requirement to be met. Lastly, which is easier? To score 36 points in the IB (6 or 7 in Chemistry) or to score AAA with an A in Chemistry in the A Levels?

Some observations:

1) The curves may be belled, but the distributions are not necessarily Normal.
2) The grading curve may be linear, but the exam may be set to give a bell-shaped distribution.
3) It isn't necessarily 'far easier' to score 45 points for the IB Diploma than it is to score RP90; this is unknown because the student distributions are too different and the effort involved is also of a different kind.
4) It is a truism that the relative difficulty of two exams determines whether one is harder than the other if the same candidate population takes both.
5) The IB annual candidature (May/Nov) is larger and more diverse than the SG-Cambridge annual candidature, so we can't tell who actually has an advantage except perhaps in very narrowly defined cases. Apples, durians.
6) It is not possible to compare 36 points in the IB (including 7 in Chem HL) to AAA with A in Chemistry for the SG-Cambridge A-levels. Getting those 36 points is possible in too many ways, whereas getting AAA (inc Chem H2) covers only a few possibilities. However, we can say that the variance for an A-level A is likely larger than that for an IB 7, and leave it at that.

(Personally, I would certainly attempt AAA for A-levels before attempting 36 points for IB. More straightforward to obtain AAA, especially now with the advantage of hindsight and education. But that's probably not helpful to the parents in this group.)

lee_yl\" post_id=\"2127957\" time=\"1706168059\" user_id=\"17023:

Paying too much attention to the trees you chose to, closes the mind and ignores the perils of cognitive bias. I prefer to appreciate the diversity that comes in a forest.

At 1:1, a map may not be complete for human perception. One won’t be able to appreciate the celestial wonders of the cosmos or the marvels of microscopic life if one holds on to the idea of the 1:1 map being complete.

It's an age-old problem: paying too little attention to individuals results in reification and one kind of cognitive bias; paying too much attention to individuals leads to another kind. One should always be aware that the map of reality is 1:1, but we are free to use the microscope or the telescope to seek clarity at other scales. Sometimes, we even use both!

bbbay\" post_id=\"2127953\" time=\"1706163552\" user_id=\"175278:

The trees we chose to pay attention to, determine the forest we see.

Beautiful. Indeed. The only complete map is the one that is 1:1 scale.

lee_yl\" post_id=\"2127929\" time=\"1706142492\" user_id=\"17023:

I am not keen to dwell into too much details as we often end up missing the forest for the trees.

For some who think there is no advantage when Singaporeans are pitted against international students, so be it, I don’t need to convince anyone.
I am here to share my experiences.

I have friends whose kids with IB 36-38 pts currently in or have already graduated from overseas med schools recognized by Singapore Medical Council. Something they would not have attained had they taken the A-level route. For this alone, my friends are thankful for the availability of the IB route.

I have no disagreement with any of this, but I do note that it is also not possible to have a forest without trees. I think we do have a duty to share useful experiences, and the wider the range that is shared, the better for everyone.