Great post :celebrate:

blurkotoko:

Joseph27, I supposed you have had some bad experience with Christianity? Why not all of us focus on the topic instead?

I was focusing on it and lashing out against attacks on homosexual behaviour based on very dubious religious text. Lets face the new testament doesnt even mention homsexuality; if we disregard the complete lack of evidence and actually take Jesus as god - then the lack of condemnation of homosexuality should be noted and a christian background shouldnt be cited. People should be honest and simply say 'I hate gay people because they put their penises in the wrong place and it makes me feel uncomfortable\". I can appreciate that more than I can - I hate gays because Jesus said its wrong. :celebrate:

Nebbermind:

Joseph27:

Are any sexual acts within the confines of a marriage also a sin? How about between boyfriend and girlfriend? How about the girl is of greek decent and is partial to enjoying activities attributed by racial stereotyping... is that a sin?

If there's no faith or religion, then what is sin? :?
GOODNESS is only a figment of your imagination, ya?

I was more so mocking a concept rather than espousing belief in faith and the concept of sin... the very notion that a god created all of this some 10 billion or so years ago, that that god then started the process of making earth and slowly populating it despite having to eradicate 99.9% of all species that at some point lived on the planet, that that god gave a set of rules based on a very dicey set of principals that demonstrated its jealous streak. A god that sent his only begotten son via a virgin to be a blood sacrifice, that he then spoke to a guy in a mountain and that led us all to this time - so you had better not stick your penis where it doesnt belong or that god will be angry.

The very concept of a personal god caring about your sex life is beyond my comprehension.

Willows:

Well, I am thinking could he be still seeing his lover that's why he refuse to be intimate with me.

If he is still with his lover then your choices narrow - if he is super rich divorce and get half, if he has ironclad prenup - put up with it and get a toy boy and just have fun with his money, if he is just average and treating you like that - kick his cheating butt out onto the street. Tough times

blurkotoko:

Being a Christian, I think it is more of the ACT of the homosexuality that is a sin, being a homesexual isn't. It is just like we are angry with the act of our children but not angry at the child.


It is the orientation of a person, but if he choose to act according to it, that is a sin. IMHO. :celebrate:

Are any sexual acts within the confines of a marriage also a sin? How about between boyfriend and girlfriend? How about the girl is of greek decent and is partial to enjoying activities attributed by racial stereotyping... is that a sin?

insider:

Joseph27:

I attempt to inculcate to my daughters a strong sense of moral values albeit without any religious providence, a love of the environment, respect for other people, respect for yourself and a thirst for knowledge. That, I believe, is a great foundation from which to pursue all other interests and activities.

I can see clearly where you are coming from though I am a devoted Buddhist myself.

Much as it seems like you are 'anti-religion', I don't take offence of it at all coz I know exactly who I am and you can have your point of view too.

Though I see the beauty of Buddhism and ever experienced the light of mercy, I cannot expect my kids to feel the same and impose on them that coz I believe, you have to believe to.

I can only share with them and live my life as kind and as compassionate as I can, then it's up to my three kids to go explore for themselves what they want or they can be an atheist if they so decide. I do not think a lack of religion will lead someone without any moral compass coz I have faith in them as a human, with or without religion.

Buddha said it long ago that his followers are not to take very word written literally coz he had already foreseen some of his words might be twisted by men. He taught us to keep observing and keep thinking (with our hearts) and we are free to discard / dispute anything written if some things do not make sense to us (of course, best to only discard after we have counseling sessions with the learned monks).

For real Buddhist monks and nuns, they have daily 'debate' sessions to question/challenge the teachings of Buddha. Through such debates, they can think and see more thoroughly the actual meanings of those teachings and from there, perhaps can internalise better instead of just practise in a superficial way coz one can never attain enlightenment without deep reflections...

That was a nice reply, thanks for taking the time to write it.

dunnoleh:

Your belief in acts of personal indiscretion being a lesser crime than not allowing the chance to free thought is a misguided one. Today’s world provides sufficient evidence to learn that free thoughts are largely misguided, somewhat similar to a young girl breaking her daddy's wallet.

In contrast to your belief, to deny my children of the chance to inculcate good moral values would be a terrible crime on my part; to condone acts of personal indiscretion committed out of free will is unthinkable, notwithstanding my forgiveness.

Let me just clarify this in the context in which it was written - I attempt to inculcate to my daughters a strong sense of moral values albeit without any religious providence, a love of the environment, respect for other people, respect for yourself and a thirst for knowledge. That, I believe, is a great foundation from which to pursue all other interests and activities. My wife and I are a happily functional monogamous couple and we interact in a social group of similarly minded people, some religious some not. The statement that I could tolerate an indiscretion more than I could, my wife demanding that our daughters follow a strict version of Islam is based on the overall world view we currently share and having that attacked by religious fundamentalism. In the end my wife isn’t about to ask for that. I am sure my wife would have a similar repulsion if I came home and started to teach our daughters that evolution is false and that the world is only 6000 years old – that would be an attack on our family as much as anything. In time I could forgive an indiscretion through counseling and dialogue – I could not however forgive anyone asking me to change the way I teach my children and getting me to teach them something I hold as false.

3Boys:

Joseph27:

I stand by my statement - an indescretion is less of a moral crime than to rob your child of free will.

And everyone here is obliged to buy into your liberal quasi-moralistic approach to child rearing....and anyone as much as whispering an opposing view is narrow minded, yes? Woe betide any adult trying to teach a child right from wrong, you might just be robbing your child of his FREE-WILL :shock: :shock:

If your child is committing an indiscretion that impinges on the public, may I suggest you rob him of some of his free will before he grows up and the authorities decide that indiscretion CAN in fact be the greater MORAL crime and do it on your behalf.

No use continuing this - at the end of the day we are most likely both good people doing the best we can to raise our respective families in a manner we believe we should. Getting back to where all this started -I hope neither of my daughters are gay, I hope they both eventually meet loving supporting male partners and have healthy children...

dunnoleh:

Joseph27:

… also spent my professional life in sales so my children have been taught from day one how to question facts and want more evidence before they believe something. They are also being taught the power of influence to achieve a result… that has turned out to be expensive because my 6 year old is very convincing when she wants something and the tailors the pitch to suit the moment …

it seems what your daughter was given was not the chance to free thoughts as you claimed, but sales training instead. I wasn’t sure if you really believed that acts of personal indiscretion are a lesser crime than not being given this chance. You have made that clear now. Our beliefs are very far apart indeed, but that’s ok with me.

Joseph27:

… It’s funny, ethical behavior is preached well here as are strong family values but all my male colleagues frequent KTV’s and other sleazy places; married or unmarried. Their family life is very conservative but their shadow seems to have control over their credit cards and pleasure senses. There seems to be a greater disconnect between the family and fun than I ever experienced with my social circle in Australia. I have just never understood the female side of equation here and how they cope with it. Personally I wont go to sleazy KTV’s though that’s probably more attributable to a poor singing voice. :celebrate:

You are citing the behavior of your male colleagues to judge another society’s beliefs. Not only is it statistically incorrect, it also shows your shallow knowledge of this society; besides the fact that you are obviously in wrong company. The subsequent comparison made against your social circle in Australia holds little water. Holding such a narrow view is being ignorant. Commenting on others based on such a view is being both ignorant and arrogant.

I will admit that the comment on KTV is anecdotal though I havent been let down by too many people so the stereotype continues. It's amazing though to watch the guy go and do whatever he wants and spin a story to the wife so that she has no idea whats happening. She says her husbands conversative, meanwhile her husband is more than happy to contradict that once he gets a 1/2 bottle scotch into him. I am not criticising the action, we are all either haunted by our shadows or accepting of them, I do however criticise hyprocracy.

Now onto a more important topic - how is it that my daughter isnt given a choice? She learns the subjects she should, she is taught to question everything she is told. If I tell her that A is fact, I want her to ask why and what we base that information on. If however I told her that 2 + 2 = 5 and to never question it regardless of what anyone said and to then be offended if someone contradicted that statement - then I would be robbing her of free will. You seem to suggest that by opening her mind to question I am not giving her a choice? If I insisted that she wears a headscarf - would that be giving her a choice, or if I tell her about the baby jesus and how she must believe if she wants to go to heaven - is that giving her a choice?

I stand by my statement - an indescretion is less of a moral crime than to rob your child of free will. So yes we are on a different page of a different book in a different library

3Boys:

Joseph27:

It’s funny, ethical behavior is preached well here as are strong family values but all my male colleagues frequent KTV’s and other sleazy places; married or unmarried. Their family life is very conservative but their shadow seems to have control over their credit cards and pleasure senses. There seems to be a greater disconnect between the family and fun than I ever experienced with my social circle in Australia. I have just never understood the female side of equation here and how they cope with it. Personally I wont go to sleazy KTV’s though that’s probably more attributable to a poor singing voice. :celebrate:

You are mixing with the wrong people....

I dont associate with them - I only know of their exploits. Of course their sanctimonious wives wait at home judging their neighbors and holding up their families values to the highest degree.

---------

As for the rest - as with any religious person, it isnt worth arguing because you dont want address any specific question and just ignore any facts. Its fine to believe that Moses lead his people, that jesus is god personified or that mohammed spoke to god last... but stupidity to stand by firmly when evidence tells you its false. Still living life with ones head in the sand is I guess easier than the alternative.

Belief in god is fiction - so you are only a prisoner of your own neurosis - spreading as fact is poison