Adam Khoo: The expats will rule Singapore
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Sorry guys for starting to be off the topic.
minnie2004:
Very well said! One more question that puzzled me for more than 10 years. While I am not against NS imposed on PRs' kids, they should be given the right to vote. Whether it is interesting to vote in Singapore is another story. It's just a balance between duty and right.I'm puzzled by all the debates regarding PRs and the hostility toward non-ang moh foreigners in Singapore. First of all, the so-called \"PR\" in Singapore is not really \"permanent\" as it has to be renewed every 5 years or so. So what's point talking about loyalty toward a country in which you don't have permanent residence in? The biggest joke is to ask PRs to serve NS. If you are a citizen of country A where you have the right of permanent residence, and a PR of Singapore where your right of residence is subject to renewal, which side do you think you'll be on if country A goes into war with Singapore?
In HK where I come from, the \"P\" in \"PR\" really means \"permanent\". Also, there's no differentiation (or more appropriately, discrimination) vs citizens and they enjoy exactly the same benefits as every other HK passport holders. No higher school fees, higher maid's levy, higher hospital bills, higher anything designed to differentiate PRs from the locals. That's one of the reasons HK is attracting so many \"foreign talents\" despite its polluted air and high costs of living. Maybe HK is an exception as people there are not as patriotic as Singaporeans due to a lack of nationalistic education in schools. But this also makes foreigners more readily accepted by the locals. This is what makes HK a true cosmopolitan city.
It's only human nature that people continue to seek what they consider a better life for them and their family. That's what brought so many Chinese immigrants to Singapore in the first place when China was suffering from war and poverty early last century. These people were just looking for a better life in a foreign land.
If there's war or natural disaster here, would you not bring your family to a safer place? If there's a better job opportunity in another country, does it mean it's disloyal to your country by moving to that country? Do you want to be discriminated if you're a foreigner working in that country?
I hope I'm not offending any Singaporeans. I just want to live in a peaceful and harmonious society without all the hatred, racism and discrimination, where ever that is.
\"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one\"
:celebrate:tree nymph:
Hi 'tree nymph', I'd just remind you that your sample is pretty small and most of all your classmates are not PRs, at least for the time being. Also, it seems that the government is tightening PR issuing.I'm currently taking a diploma Chinese course and 80% of my coursemates are mainland chinese. Out of these, 80% are looking to get the diploma to apply for PR in Singapore so that they can get better paying job, save enough to put their kids in school etc and go back to China. 10% are married to Singaporean and looking to receive this diploma to enable them to work so they can earn some money and not waste them time here. 5% moved here with their hubby (and kid), they have not decided yet if they are going to make singapore their home, but at this moment, they are still planning to go back. 5% married to locals and running their own chinese enrichment centres and they may not move back to China and are mentally prepared that their boys may need to serve NS.
So from my classmates, you can see that majority is still going back.
The sample class size is 50 people. -
minnie2004:
If this is the case, HK may be the most European city in Asia. In France (that I know well), foreigners have ALL the benefits except the right to vote. But the latter issue has been raised many times since Mitterand. In Asia, we often take differentiation or even discrimination for granted. Several years ago, I read in the Staff Manual of A*STAR IME (Institute of Microelectronics) that PhDs from US/Europe/Japan are entitled to a housing subsidy of $2500/month and those PhD from China and India for $1500 (or $700?). Locals returning home with a PhD have nothing. Now things have changed, generally little or no more housing subsidy is given to anyone. But this does not mean that differentiation is becoming less. All the contrary. Just look at the new policies on medical care and university fees.Hi tree nymph,
The govt schools and govt-subsidized schools are free from P1 to S3 for both PRs and locals as part of the 9-year compulsory education program. Just have to pay for the books.
As for hospitals, as long as you have a HKID (doesn't even need to be a PR), you only pay a flat fee of HKD100 per day (<SGD20) for the big wards which covers all the expenses, including food, operations and drugs. Outpatient services range from HKD60 to HKD100.
http://www.ha.org.hk/visitor/ha_visitor_index.asp?Parent_ID=108&Content_ID=349&Dimension=100
There are also no difference or restrictions in property investments for foreigners/PRs/citizens, except maybe on securing bank financing. Other social benefits such as Social Security Assistance are the same too as long as you've lived in HK for over 7 years.
Basically I wasn't aware of any govt policies which differentiate foreigners/PRs/citizens, and there's no distinction between PRs and citizens except for the passports they hold. -
tamarind:
Wow, should I go ahead and list down all the govt policies against PRs and foreigners? Higher school fees, higher medical bills, higher maid levy, no baby bonus, no child-care holidays, lower priority in registering primary schools and maybe many more I'm not aware of. On the other hand, PRs pay their taxes like everyone else (maybe higher as most are professionals earning above-average salaries), have no voting rights or any say in any govt policies, but are obliged to send their sons to NS.
Who is discriminating you ?minnie2004:
I hope I'm not offending any Singaporeans. I just want to live in a peaceful and harmonious society without all the hatred, racism and discrimination, where ever that is.
What can you call these except for discrimination? These policies are far from being considered \"fair\". In fact it is another govt policy to \"discriminate\" foreigners in order to make them become citizens.
Becoming a citizen is not something you can force upon someone. You can't force someone to love your country just like you can't force someone to love you. What you attract is just someone who become a citizen for the sake of benefits, or someone who marries you for your $$. -
Cheval:
In Asia, we often take differentiation or even discrimination for granted.
True. The most extreme case being Malaysia. That's why you see so many expats leaving the country. Personally I won't live or make any investment in that country. -
minnie2004:
Wow, should I go ahead and list down all the govt policies against PRs and foreigners? Higher school fees, higher medical bills, higher maid levy, no baby bonus, no child-care holidays, lower priority in registering primary schools and maybe many more I'm not aware of. On the other hand, PRs pay their taxes like everyone else (maybe higher as most are professionals earning above-average salaries), have no voting rights or any say in any govt policies, but are obliged to send their sons to NS.
Who is discriminating you ?tamarind:
[quote=\"minnie2004\"]
I hope I'm not offending any Singaporeans. I just want to live in a peaceful and harmonious society without all the hatred, racism and discrimination, where ever that is.
What can you call these except for discrimination? These policies are far from being considered \"fair\". In fact it is another govt policy to \"discriminate\" foreigners in order to make them become citizens.
Becoming a citizen is not something you can force upon someone. You can't force someone to love your country just like you can't force someone to love you. What you attract is just someone who become a citizen for the sake of benefits, or someone who marries you for your $$.[/quote]
Oh I see. You call these policies discrimination. Thanks for the insights. The government should probably listen to the PRs and think about other ways to attract them to become citizens. Do you have any suggestions ?
You cannot compare where you come from, Hong Kong, to Singapore. Hong Kong is part of China. Singapore is on its own, surrounded by countries that will not always be friendly. If anything happens, no one will help us. There are many reasons why the government cannot have the same policies as Hong Kong.
Who oblige you to send your son to NS ? PRs have all the freedom not to send their sons to NS. -
[quote]Who oblige you to send your son to NS ? PRs have all the freedom not to send their sons to NS.[/quote]
:? Garmen policy maker may not agree with you I am afraid...
Come on, becoming citizen or sending sons to NS are not the only ways PRs can contribute to the society or show their \"loyalty\".
Plus, why we think PRs owe us the whole big world? Think about their home countries, India, China, Malaysia... who raised and groomed them, giving them all sorts of education subsidies (just like what all subsidies or scholarships or grants our kids enjoyed since young), and then they are now staying and serving us, being ungrateful to their home people (if the same case applies here, they will be called \"quitters\"...)
How you think about those Singaporeans who work overseas and send money home? What's wrong with it?
So what are the complaints or double standard all about?
Who should be more grateful?
Shouldn't they be given time to make their free choice? Not forced upon...
Weren't we once all PRs? -
There is perhaps an unique situation here in Singapore that maybe many PRs are not aware of, especially to those who have come here to work in recent time and become PRs. It was never that obvious in the past; most PRs from Malaysia eventually become Singaporeans. Just looking at the profile of some ex-ministers/current ministers, you get the picture. When I was in school, there aren’t many second generation PRs amongst us. The non-locals that I met were the Asean scholars (and they are bonded) or students from neighbouring countries who came to study in the local universities – so they were not even PRs. After I started working, I realize that there are many PRs, mostly first generation, working here. The first generation PRs do not have to go through NS, but their second generation would have to. I do agree that there are some who stay on and let their kids go through NS, but there are many who would leave Singapore just before NS. This is becoming more apparent now and that’s why some citizens are unhappy with that.
In many other countries, military service is not compulsory and therefore, there is no such debate. Yes, maybe there aren’t that many “benefits” of working here, afterall Singapore is not a resource-rich country like some others which could offer many carrots for PRs. But there is one benefit that many first generation PRs seem to take for granted, and that is the compulsory NS or reservist that male Singaporeans have to do. Without an army, can a nation of our size offer any peace of mind to those working here?
I am not totally knowledgeable on the difference between HK PR and Singapore PR. Thus, I like to ask some questions. As a percentage, how many living in HK are PR and not citizen? How long does it take for one to work in HK before he can apply for PR – the official website seems to imply 7 years? In Singapore, you don’t have to work in Singapore for 7 years before you can apply to be a PR. Within a short time of coming to work here, as long as you have the right education or work qualification, you can be a PR in no time. Perhaps this is a big difference between Singapore and Hong Kong. If there is no distinction between a PR and a citizen in Singapore, not many PRs would bother to become citizens here (I don’t have to look far, my DH thinks that way too).
Singapore, due to its small size and population and falling birth rate, has to do something on this matter. That is one of the reasons why we should have greater distinction between citizens and non-citizens or even PRs for that matter. Not just to “incentivise” PRs to become citizens, it is to show the citizens that they are valued here. If not, given that Singaporeans are not allowed dual citizenship, what is to prevent a mass exodus of Singaporeans giving up their citizenship in Singapore and obtaining a citizenship from elsewhere which offers better social welfare benefits when you are in old age? Emotional ties aside?
There are many other differences between Singapore and Hong Kong. There is no military service in Hong Kong. There is no budget for military spending. The level of public spending and where it goes to is very different in both places. We can't start comparing on a piece-meal basis.Parent1:
Unfortunately in many countries in this part of the world (whether it is Japan or Hong Kong or ASEAN), the ang mohs are still better treated, maybe because they can be louder and more assertive, and people just want to avoid an unpleasant encounter with them. Also, maybe they have a culture to tip more when they get good service. Really, there are just so many explanations, and unless we are in that situation, we can’t really explain why some people “kowtow” to the ang mohs.Like other Asians, it is sad that some Singaporeans tend to be deferrential, if not kow tow, to Ang Moh.
I also hope that I do not offend any non-citizens here. I do not have any issue with PRs or non-citizens working here. But I do think recent moves by the government on foreign workers is a move in the right direction. -
busymom,
You have written a very good post.
[quote]I do not have any issue with PRs or non-citizens working here. But I do think recent moves by the government on foreign workers is a move in the right direction.[/quote]I totally agree with the above. -
Busymom:
:goodpost:There is perhaps an unique situation here in Singapore that maybe many PRs are not aware of, especially to those who have come here to work in recent time and become PRs. It was never that obvious in the past; most PRs from Malaysia eventually become Singaporeans. Just looking at the profile of some ex-ministers/current ministers, you get the picture. When I was in school, there aren’t many second generation PRs amongst us. The non-locals that I met were the Asean scholars (and they are bonded) or students from neighbouring countries who came to study in the local universities – so they were not even PRs. After I started working, I realize that there are many PRs, mostly first generation, working here. The first generation PRs do not have to go through NS, but their second generation would have to. I do agree that there are some who stay on and let their kids go through NS, but there are many who would leave Singapore just before NS. This is becoming more apparent now and that’s why some citizens are unhappy with that.
Unfortunately in many countries in this part of the world (whether it is Japan or Hong Kong or ASEAN), the ang mohs are still better treated, maybe because they can be louder and more assertive, and people just want to avoid an unpleasant encounter with them. Also, maybe they have a culture to tip more when they get good service. Really, there are just so many explanations, and unless we are in that situation, we can’t really explain why some people “kowtow” to the ang mohs.
In many other countries, military service is not compulsory and therefore, there is no such debate. Yes, maybe there aren’t that many “benefits” of working here, afterall Singapore is not a resource-rich country like some others which could offer many carrots for PRs. But there is one benefit that many first generation PRs seem to take for granted, and that is the compulsory NS or reservist that male Singaporeans have to do. Without an army, can a nation of our size offer any peace of mind to those working here?
I am not totally knowledgeable on the difference between HK PR and Singapore PR. Thus, I like to ask some questions. As a percentage, how many living in HK are PR and not citizen? How long does it take for one to work in HK before he can apply for PR – the official website seems to imply 7 years? In Singapore, you don’t have to work in Singapore for 7 years before you can apply to be a PR. Within a short time of coming to work here, as long as you have the right education or work qualification, you can be a PR in no time. Perhaps this is a big difference between Singapore and Hong Kong. If there is no distinction between a PR and a citizen in Singapore, not many PRs would bother to become citizens here (I don’t have to look far, my DH thinks that way too).
Singapore, due to its small size and population and falling birth rate, has to do something on this matter. That is one of the reasons why we should have greater distinction between citizens and non-citizens or even PRs for that matter. Not just to “incentivise” PRs to become citizens, it is to show the citizens that they are valued here. If not, given that Singaporeans are not allowed dual citizenship, what is to prevent a mass exodus of Singaporeans giving up their citizenship in Singapore and obtaining a citizenship from elsewhere which offers better social welfare benefits when you are in old age? Emotional ties aside?
There are many other differences between Singapore and Hong Kong. There is no military service in Hong Kong. There is no budget for military spending. The level of public spending and where it goes to is very different in both places. We can't start comparing on a piece-meal basis.Parent1:
Like other Asians, it is sad that some Singaporeans tend to be deferrential, if not kow tow, to Ang Moh.
I also hope that I do not offend any non-citizens here. I do not have any issue with PRs or non-citizens working here. But I do think recent moves by the government on foreign workers is a move in the right direction.
Our situation and HK's is totally different. We don't have 'big brother' to look after us should something happen to us. Also, the policies created by our govt is not discriminating the PRs and Citizens. They are created so that we can entice the interested PRs to become Citizens. Yes, this may not be the best policy but its something that out govt has to do. -
Cheval:
Hi 'tree nymph', I'd just remind you that your sample is pretty small and most of all your classmates are not PRs, at least for the time being. Also, it seems that the government is tightening PR issuing.
Hi Cheval,
yes, my sample size is pretty small, but if we are able to get a bigger number, the percentage will not be too far off, don't you agree?
yes too to the tightening of the PR issuing.
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