Adam Khoo: The expats will rule Singapore
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Cheval:
I support Parent1 and minnie2004. There's a long way to go for Singapore to become a civil society. Plus, from what I observe around me, Asians having studied in Western countries rarely learn the human values, as in French: Liberty, Equality and Fraternity. Lack of respect is common. Sorry to tell the harsh truth but truth is truth...
In my opinion, Asians give too much credit to the West for upholding the principles of \"Liberty, Equality and Fraternity\". Where were these principles when http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance came into China to force it to open up to their trade demands? And do you know why most Canadians speak French while the Americans speak English, although we all know that the Americas used to belong to the natives - the Indians? Tell the Indians that it was all for \"Liberty, Equality and Fraternity\".
In the years I spent in the US as a student, I do get occasional yells from drunk Americans (at least I hope they were drunk) honking their cars whizzing by me and telling me to go home. I believe that experience is somewhat similar to what some of the PRs who have lately come to our community are feeling from all the seemingly negative pressure put on them recently to give citizens priority and more benefits.
The fact is, in most competitions, there is always the home ground advantage. The home team will always be given the best chance and motivation to win. But the home team does not always win, even if the home ground advantage does skew the results to the home team. This is true regardless of whether we are an Asian or Western country.
To all PRs out there looking for a place in our society, Singapore welcomes you, as long as you add positively to our country. Such is the measure of our pragmatism. But you should not feel that you are discriminated against, for this rule is applied not only on you, but on all citizens in the country. We Singaporeans have been brought up believing that there is no place in Singapore for the lazy and the incompetent. We have been told, time and again, that our country's only resource is US, the people, and the moment we slack we will go back to being a back-water kampung in the stream. Most of our parents and ourselves have burnt ourselves up running the Singapore Marathon, where the only possible direction is forward, and any pause or rest we take is but an opportunity for others to overtake us.
If you are for Singapore, run with us as a citizen. If you are just here for the ride, enjoy the ride, but do not say we are far from being a \"civil society\". That's because, notwithstanding the smallness of our country, we are far more cosmopolitan and tolerant of foreigners and religions than the more homogeneous countries in the world. It is, after all, in our pledge as citizens of our country. -
ChiefKiasu:
If you are for Singapore, run with us as a citizen. If you are just here for the ride, enjoy the ride, but do not say we are far from being a \"civil society\". That's because, notwithstanding the smallness of our country, we are far more cosmopolitan and tolerant of foreigners and religions than the more homogeneous countries in the world. It is, after all, in our pledge as citizens of our country.
I agree Singapore is already considered very tolerant of foreigners compared to the likes of Japan and Malaysia (and see where these countries are heading). That's what attracts foreigners in the first place. This is the wisdom of its government as they know better than everyone else that's the only way for the country to continue to grow.
It is hard to deny that Singapore is among the most civil societies in Asia, if not in the world. I also understand that although we long for equality, it is something that only exists in fairy tales. The world is unfair. What we strive to do, is to make it less so. What often scares me here, is this \"we against the world\" mentality, this fundamental anti-foreigner (esp. from less developed countries) sentiment among its people.
As I mentioned before, we can't compare HK to Singapore but let's face it, we are competing in all fronts: for talents, business, stock listings, all sorts of rankings, etc. So making foreigners feel welcome and accepted, instead of being treated as someone who come here to steal my rice bowl/husband/HDB flat, is a crucial factor in attracting so-called \"foreign talents\".
Coming from highly competitive HK, I fully understand the consequences of being \"lazy and incompetent\". You simply can't survive there. In fact things move so fast that we hardly have the time to differentiate who's the foreigner, who's the PR, and who's a citizen. -
Cheval,
Why do you apply to become citizen? -
Minnie,
Why did your hb come to Singapore? Did you apply to become PR? Why? -
tree nymph:
Hi tree nymph, my hb came here as he found his perfect job here. He has worked in HK, US, and Australia before. He applied for PR as he wanted to buy landed property at one point. I applied for PR for the sake of convenience as PR only needs to renew every 5 years, as compared to annual renewal for the social visit pass. It's also easier to open bank accounts etc. I don't know how long we'll stay in Singapore. But judging from my hb's business, we'll be here for the foreseeable future.Minnie,
Why did your hb come to Singapore? Did you apply to become PR? Why?
In general, we like Singapore. I think it's a great place to raise a family. We like its greenery, space and laid back environment (compared to HK I mean). I find it amusing that some of our Singaporeans friends consider this place too hectic that they have to move to Australia
I don't feel discriminated personally as luckily I don't belong to one of those who coming here to fight for benefits with the locals. In fact when I mention I'm from HK, people started talking to me in Cantonese and asking me about the property market, which restaurants in HK to go to etc. I just feel some of those govt policies to differentiate foreigners from locals are rather unfair since we don't have equivalent policies in HK.
If you ask me if I want to become a citizen, I'll say definitely, if you allow dual citizenship, since both Singapore and HK are my homes now. But having grown up in HK and with family and friends there, it's hard to give up my HK passport, although practically speaking, Singapore passport is more useful in traveling. e.g. It's quite ironic that I need a visa to visit China while Singaporeans are granted 2 weeks visit w/o a visa.
Who knows, maybe my kids would become Singaporeans eventually, after attending local schools and singing Majura Singapura every day
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minnie2004:
Hi minnie2004
What often scares me here, is this \"we against the world\" mentality, this fundamental anti-foreigner (esp. from less developed countries) sentiment among its people.
I am sorry to hear that you feel this way. I hope it is just an impression that you get after reading recent news on the papers about the need to distinguish the benefits of citizens and PRs, rather than some real time discriminations that either yourself or people you know have met while here. From memory, I don't recall such topics ever been discussed here and there were indeed very little difference in the benefits enjoyed by a citizen and a PR in the past. However, things have changed drastically in the last few years in Singapore, and if the government does not address this issue now, there could be some real social issues in the future.
Yes, it is good that we have cheap labour from the less well-off countries, doing jobs that the average Singaporeans do not want to do. However, too much of a \"good\" can become \"bad\". This by the way, did not come from me, but I remember reading this in an article in the Straits Time quoting an economics researcher (or maybe the article was written by the researcher).
For the foreigner or PR living here, I can understand it is unpleasant to be at the centre of such debates. It is easy to feel unfair or being discriminated against. Nonetheless, I don't believe there is anywhere in this world that you can be free from any form of racism or discrimination. Sorry to say this, but if you have come from Hong Kong and live there all your life, wouldn't it be natural for you to feel that there is no discrimination against foreigners? Just as us living in Singapore would feel that we have not been discriminating against foreigners. It is always easier to feel hurt when you are at the receiving end, isn't it?
I visited Hong Kong a few times when it was still a British colony. I am not a Cantonese and while I could understand the dialect, my pronunication is not superb. I was told specifically that I should not speak Mandarin when I went shopping, as otherwise, I would be deemed as a Mainland Chinese and would receive second class treatment from the shop assistants. It was true, and I ended up using English instead. Well, if that is not a discrimination against non-angmoh foreigners or Mainland Chinese, then I do not know what is. Again, it can't be that the entire Hong Kong population has that kind of attitude. Similarly, there are bound to be some people out there who are anti-foreigners in Singapore, but surprisingly, I haven't met any in all my years here (and mind you, I am not that young!)
My hubby is a PR who studied and stayed in the university hostel here. His closed friends back then included a good mix of locals and non-locals (more locals in fact), and till today, they are still his closest friends. He has never once felt discriminated against simply because he is not a Singaporean, whether in uni or at work.
I hope I have done my part as a Singaporean convincing you that there isn't this fundamental anti-foreigner sentiment here.
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Parent1:
Is hard to believe you if we listen to the sweeping statements & stereo-typing you made against PRs!
Agree. I was born a PRtamarind:
Just for information :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination
[quote=\"tree nymph\"]We are not bias against PRs! I think we welcome PRs and we welcome PRs to become citizens - so you can enjoy the citizen's benefits... So how can I be bias against PR ?tamarind:
The PRs nowadays are not the same as our parents' generation. All my Malaysian colleagues have no intention of becoming citizens, or let their sons serve NS. The reason is because they want to earn money here, then retire back in Malaysia where they can live like kings. There are no official figures, but I believe that not many PRs actually become citizens.
tamarind:
Most PRs from China will eventually return, because the amount of money they earned here will enable them to live very comfortably back in China.
tamarind:
Most PRs will work in Singapore until they saved up enough to retire comfortably back in their home countries. By then, their kids would have completed university in Singapore, and will continue to work in Singapore as PRs. The old PRs bring all the money back to Malaysia, China, etc and live like kings, while their children PRs stay in Singapore and repeat the same cycle.
The only problem I have with PRs, is that when times are bad, do you think that they will stay back and help rebuild Singapore ?tamarind:
[/quote]Read carefuly. I usually use the word \"most\" not \"all\". I said \"all the Malaysian colleagues I know\", that does not mean \"all the Malaysian PRs in Singapore\". I never say there is anything wrong with \"milking from our economy\", I am milking too, aren't you ? The last statement was meant to tell you that you are wrong to use the term \"giving back to society\".Staying in Singapore to work does not mean \"giving back to society\". They are milking the benefits from our economy, earning high pay so that they can bring back the money to their own country and retire comfortably.
How can you say that I made \"sweeping\" statements ? Over 60% will qualify for \"most\".
You are welcome to quote sources of official government figures stating otherwise. If you can find any.
I am only writing the truth, whether you like it or not. But please do not make any false accusations.
I am born in Singapore, not as a citizen, but as a PR. I became a citizen when I was 8 years od, and I have grown to love this country.
I repeat again that I welcome PRs taking whatever jobs in Singapore. All I am asking for is \"loyalty in times of war or disaster\". Is this too much to ask ? This is something that you kept avoid answering. I wonder why ?
In fact, we don't even need to wait until there is war or disaster. When there is a change in the leadership of the country, and if the new leader is incompetent, that will be the end of the good times.
Back to the topic that expats will rule Singapore. In the corporate world, I believe there are already many expats taking all the senior management positions. But in the government, that will never be possible. We need leaders who are committed to stay in Singapore through good times and bad times. Not people who will move to whatever country that pays them higher salary. And I don't mean all PRs are like this, I know many citizens will move too. -
Busymom:
Even though I can speak Cantonese fluently, I also spoke English when shopping in Hong Kong, and I received first class treatment
I was told specifically that I should not speak Mandarin when I went shopping, as otherwise, I would be deemed as a Mainland Chinese and would receive second class treatment from the shop assistants. It was true, and I ended up using English instead. Well, if that is not a discrimination against non-angmoh foreigners or Mainland Chinese, then I do not know what is. I never spoke Mandarin in Hong Kong, only Cantonese or English, because I was aware of the discrimination if I was mistaken to be a mainland Chinese.
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ChiefKiasu:
Chief, you've said it so well. The historical perspective is crystal clear and the undercurrents remain to this day.
In my opinion, Asians give too much credit to the West for upholding the principles of \"Liberty, Equality and Fraternity\". Where were these principles when http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance came into China to force it to open up to their trade demands? And do you know why most Canadians speak French while the Americans speak English, although we all know that the Americas used to belong to the natives - the Indians? Tell the Indians that it was all for \"Liberty, Equality and Fraternity\".
In the years I spent in the US as a student, I do get occasional yells from drunk Americans (at least I hope they were drunk) honking their cars whizzing by me and telling me to go home. I believe that experience is somewhat similar to what some of the PRs who have lately come to our community are feeling from all the seemingly negative pressure put on them recently to give citizens priority and more benefits.
The fact is, in most competitions, there is always the home ground advantage. The home team will always be given the best chance and motivation to win. But the home team does not always win, even if the home ground advantage does skew the results to the home team. This is true regardless of whether we are an Asian or Western country.
To all PRs out there looking for a place in our society, Singapore welcomes you, as long as you add positively to our country. Such is the measure of our pragmatism. But you should not feel that you are discriminated against, for this rule is applied not only on you, but on all citizens in the country. We Singaporeans have been brought up believing that there is no place in Singapore for the lazy and the incompetent. We have been told, time and again, that our country's only resource is US, the people, and the moment we slack we will go back to being a back-water kampung in the stream. Most of our parents and ourselves have burnt ourselves up running the Singapore Marathon, where the only possible direction is forward, and any pause or rest we take is but an opportunity for others to overtake us.
If you are for Singapore, run with us as a citizen. If you are just here for the ride, enjoy the ride, but do not say we are far from being a \"civil society\". That's because, notwithstanding the smallness of our country, we are far more cosmopolitan and tolerant of foreigners and religions than the more homogeneous countries in the world. It is, after all, in our pledge as citizens of our country.
I often wonder why Singapore is so unfairly maligned, from it's \"kiasuism\" to this \"intolerance for foreigners\". The reality is, ALL countries have it. It's at the core of human nature - to want to win and to feel good about oneself. I believe the issue is with our education - we all speak some English and our thoughts are therefore widely communicated, so whatever kiasuism etc is laid bare. But what about the Japanese, the Korean, the Chinese, or heck, even the Hong Konger? They have very similar, if not more xenophobic thoughts, but their feelings are less accessible unless one reads the local language.
I don't mean to criticise anyone, but if it were true that we are intolerant, then we won't have the ethnic and cultural blend that we have today; we'd be like Japan, or even closer to home, Malaysia. Let the governmental controls and monitoring slip, and we may end up like the UK where the locals feel they are hounded out of their major cities by immigrants. Let it slip further and we'll be like Lebanon. The choice is clear. What would you have? -
Thousands of Singaporeans work in China, Indonesia, Middle East, Vietnam, etc, enjoying good pay & benefits. Hardly anyone of them would settle down in the host country, regardless of the number of years they work and live there. Most of them would eventually bring their family & savings back to Singapore.
When foreigners practice this in Singapore, it is widely regarded as negative and unacceptable or even condemned.
We want foreigners to bring their skills, knowlege & experience to Singapore & help grow the economy. But when local talents leave for greener pastures, we call them quiters.
If this is not double standard? What is it?
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