Homosexuality

[corneyAmber]

WeiHan:

Yah...as if they will tell you who they are since some people already call them sinners; simply pull out verses from their book to justify themselves.

Btw, I know who they are and they tell me without qualms. Not supporting the idea of propagating this trend of choices does not mean that I am not able to be friends with gay people. This is also a wrong perception. They let me know because they see that I still respect them as an individual and do not discriminate them in any way, at work or at play. Of course, if they ask me would I allow my child to make a choice towards such a direction, it would be an emphatic \"No\" unless there are very good and valid reasons for making that choice.

[WeiHan]

ks2me:

Btw, I know who they are and they tell me without qualms. Not supporting the idea of propagating this trend of choices does not mean that I am not able to be friends with gay people. This is also a wrong perception. They let me know because they see that I still respect them as an individual and do not discriminate them in any way, at work or at play. Of course, if they ask me would I allow my child to make a choice towards such a direction, it would be an emphatic \"No\" unless there are very good and valid reasons for making that choice.

ks2me. If your child is not a homosexual, there is no point for you worrying that he/she will make such a choice because he/she will naturally be attracted to people of opposite sex and no influence can be bigger to change that. If he/she is a homosexual by sexual orientation, it is possible that he/she chooses a spouse of the opposite sex but then it will mean that he/she is not choosing a person that they really love to form a family with and you should know this is tragic both for him/her and their spouses. Did you watch the movie Brokeback Mountain?

[corneyAmber]

WeiHan:

ks2me. If your child is not a homosexual, there is no point for you worrying that he/she will make such a choice because he/she will naturally be attracted to people of opposite sex and no influence can be bigger to change that. If he/she is a homosexual by sexual orientation, it is possible that he/she chooses a spouse of the opposite sex but then it will mean that he/she is not choosing a person that they really love to form a family with and you should know this is tragic both for him/her and their spouses. Did you watch the movie Brokeback Mountain?

I know what you mean WeiHan, but human beings are very complex, I don't think I can claim to know all possibilities too. I know of at least 3 real people I know who changed their orientation because of dramatic events in their lives that affected them. The fear of being near a woman after some dramatic happening has naturally diverted them in the opposite way but they claimed they were born ok and they had normal relationships before..... I also know a group who are born to have such inclination from young so it varies.

So as far as I am concerned as a parent, I do believe in the power of influence, especially bad ones.

[WeiHan]

lovekidsverymuch:

ks2me:

So as far as I am concerned as a parent, I do believe in the power of influence, especially bad ones.

very true ks2me I agree :celebrate:

Well...bad or not bad can sometimes be rather subjective. It depends on your values system.

[3Boys]

WeiHan:

Your logic that discordance in twin studies implies that we have a choice is flawed. Those discordance cases that showed that the other twin sibling isn't homosexuals. They didn't make any choice to be straight.

Really?

And what part of those studies supports this contention?

As you are using the 'propensity' argument as a basis for 'rightness', and propensity is linked to genetic or para-genetic traits (or do you argue otherwise), then what other factor is coming into play to result in discordance? Could perhaps societal shaping and upbringing have a part? Perhaps parents who model gender roles appropriately?

Therefore, is it not possible that one's environment and upbringing can overturn 'propensity' and shape ones values, and allow one to lead a fulfilling mainstream life? That being the case, is it not incumbent on parents to at least attempt to do so, and exclude influences that may play on 'propensity'?

I.e. I recognise that there are individuals more prone to homosexual tendencies. This is a natural biological/evolutionary occurrence, completely to be expected. This is not to say that one needs to act on this 'propensity' or that he is necessarily more fulfilled by doing so. Again, for illustration only, is a 'propensed' gambling addict more fulfilled by acting out his destiny or curtailing it?

So, I do not choose for my children to go down this path. It can be a very destructive and unfulfilling one. I will teach them to be respectful of all individuals for who they are, but it is not the same as saying I accept homosexuality as 'normality'.

Last but not least, I do not predicate my child-rearing on scenarios and values propounded by a hollywood movie.

[corneyAmber]

lovekidsverymuch:

very true ks2me I agree :celebrate:

:celebrate: to you LKVM!

[corneyAmber]

WeiHan:

Well...bad or not bad can sometimes be rather subjective. It depends on your values system.

Exactly!! So bottomline, I see handling homosexuality as an art, not science. Hence I don't dwell into research and reports as much because I have read controversial reports. I believe my exposure so far will serve me better as I understand it now how to handle it as an art.

Oh, I just realise I have not answered your question on the movie. I have not watched it yet but I know it is pretty much the same as other similiar theme I have seen from what I heard so far. I will try to watch it sometime soon since you recommend. :celebrate:

[corneyAmber]

3Boys:

Really?

And what part of those studies supports this contention?

As you are using the 'propensity' argument as a basis for 'rightness', and propensity is linked to genetic or para-genetic traits (or do you argue otherwise), then what other factor is coming into play to result in discordance? Could perhaps societal shaping and upbringing have a part? Perhaps parents who model gender roles appropriately?

Therefore, is it not possible that one's environment and upbringing can overturn 'propensity' and shape ones values, and allow one to lead a fulfilling mainstream life? That being the case, is it not incumbent on parents to at least attempt to do so, and exclude influences that may play on 'propensity'?

I.e. I recognise that there are individuals more prone to homosexual tendencies. This is a natural biological/evolutionary occurrence, completely to be expected. This is not to say that one needs to act on this 'propensity' or that he is necessarily more fulfilled by doing so. Again, for illustration only, is a 'propensed' gambling addict more fulfilled by acting out his destiny or curtailing it?

So, I do not choose for my children to go down this path. It can be a very destructive and unfulfilling one. I will teach them to be respectful of all individuals for who they are, but it is not the same as saying I accept homosexuality as 'normality'.

Last but not least, I do not predicate my child-rearing on scenarios and values propounded by a hollywood movie.

Hey 3Boys, always good to read your postings, well-thought processes. You should come in more often to share more of your parenting style and views that we can learn from. :celebrate:

[WeiHan]

3Boys:

WeiHan:

Your logic that discordance in twin studies implies that we have a choice is flawed. Those discordance cases that showed that the other twin sibling isn't homosexuals. They didn't make any choice to be straight.

Really?

And what part of those studies supports this contention?

As you are using the 'propensity' argument as a basis for 'rightness', and propensity is linked to genetic or para-genetic traits (or do you argue otherwise), then what other factor is coming into play to result in discordance? Could perhaps societal shaping and upbringing have a part? Perhaps parents who model gender roles appropriately?

Therefore, is it not possible that one's environment and upbringing can overturn 'propensity' and shape ones values, and allow one to lead a fulfilling mainstream life? That being the case, is it not incumbent on parents to at least attempt to do so, and exclude influences that may play on 'propensity'?

I.e. I recognise that there are individuals more prone to homosexual tendencies. This is a natural biological/evolutionary occurrence, completely to be expected. This is not to say that one needs to act on this 'propensity' or that he is necessarily more fulfilled by doing so. Again, for illustration only, is a 'propensed' gambling addict more fulfilled by acting out his destiny or curtailing it?

So, I do not choose for my children to go down this path. It can be a very destructive and unfulfilling one. I will teach them to be respectful of all individuals for who they are, but it is not the same as saying I accept homosexuality as 'normality'.

Last but not least, I do not predicate my child-rearing on scenarios and values propounded by a hollywood movie.

3boys. In fact there have been no evidences (meaning there are no well recognised research papers) at all that upbringing or later environmental factors (societal shaping) will affect sexual orientation. There have been a group of religious people who believe in reparative for homosexuals but so far none of their so call \"studies\" have been accepted in peer-reviewed recognised scientific journals. Many of their subjects suffered severe damaging psychological conditions due to these unscientific reparative therapies. Many of their poster boys (so call ex-gays) who claimed being cured were caught red-handed later with other men again. On the hand, like what I have stated, there are many peer-reviewed scientific papers that pointed to the biological cause for homosexuality such as brain structure etc....

Again gambling can be addicted but does not produce any positive effect. On the other hand, homosexuality, other than the partners being of the same sex, do produce positive relationships such as love and support for each other. Many homosexuals are productive, positive contributing members of the society. Unlike gambling addicts. So I don't see how they are comparable.

It is very respectable of you that you will teach your children values such as respect for others and tolearnce. I'll really respect and applaud you for that. As for homosexuality being destructive, I do not know what you meant by that but it is true that there is a stigma attach to it and probably some discrimination but it is slowly fading. Many homosexuals I know of lead a very successful and fulfilling life so a person sexual orientation don't really determines his/her entire life. It is just one of the many traits that a person have. I am just trying to share with you what I understand and my view.

Lastly, if I understand it correctly, you are saying that you will bring up your child as if they are straight. That is what you meant by :you do not choose for your child to go down this path\". Of course that is what you should be doing, I will not dispute that.

[3Boys]

WeiHan,

I’m afraid you do not get my point. I do not dispute that biology can pre-dispose, which is the main point you are making. I do dispute that we have no wilful choice in the matter, or that we cannot seek to influence, or that the influence will be invariably damaging.

As for your contention about ‘no studies showing upbringing will affect sexual orientation’, absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence. What if I were to pose the question the other way, have there been any studies conclusively proving that upbringing and societal norms DO NOT have any effect on sexual orientation of young adults? Are there any such? I have not seen, to my knowledge.

It is recognised that most behavioural traits are multifactorial in nature, a combination of propensity (i,e brain structure/neurochemistry) and environmental influences. In some cases the tendencies are overwhleming and environmental factors hold no sway, in some cases they are less so and upbringing can make a difference. Why should this be ANY different?