PM Lawrence Wong's NDR - Education Portions

[Imp75]

@doodbug
I googled online about the above (can’t locate where I read from) so if its incorrect, please correct me, don’t want to be POFMA or spread wrong info causing unnecessary anxiety lol.

[sharonkhoo]

@doodbug said in PM Lawrence Wong's NDR - Education Portions:

I too, have an issue with this. I wonder how prevalent this is and how many below 21s are granted Singapore citizenship even though their parents are not SCs. I wonder if these new children SCs must undertake to renounce the other citizenship at 21 years old. Many countries (e.g. USA) do not allow renounciation before 21 years old.

Eligibility for becoming a Sg citizen:
https://www.ica.gov.sg/reside/citizenship/apply#:~:text=Have been a Singapore Permanent,or legally adopted by you).
This seems to be the only case for a child whose parents are not citizens.
Are a PR studying in Singapore; and have been residing/living in Singapore for more than 3 years (of which, at least one year as a PR); and have passed at least one national exam (i.e. PSLE, GCE ‘N’/‘O’/‘A’ levels), or are in the Integrated Programme (IP).

As far as I understand, the rule about dual citizenships under 21 applies to all kids. Since many countries disallow renouncing citizenship before 21, it’s not possible to insist on something that isn’t allowed. I expect that as long as ICA knows that these kids had another citizenship, they will be reminded to renounce their other citizenship when they reach 21. How well-policed this is, I don’t know.

I’m not sure about this, but my guess is that these foreign kids will be given “minor” citizenship, which means that if they have to swear an oath of allegiance before 22, and ICA will probably want to see proof that they have at least set in motion the renouncing of other citizenships (these can take a long time depending on the country). My kids had “minor” citizenships because they were born overseas even though both parents are Sg citizens and they had no other citizenship, and had to swear that oath at 21 too, or lose their citizenship.

[doodbug]

@slmkhoo I am fully aware that most jurisdictions do not allow renunciation until 21 years of age. I have a foreign born kid too, who is holding dual citizenship.

There is a distinction to me, between SCs born to SC parents holding dual citizenships, vs the case where parents are non-SCs, i.e. PRs, and yet their kids are offered SCs before 21 as these kids can enjoy full benefits of citizenship.

This is within the policy mandate of ICA - not every PR who is the child of a PR, fulfilling the criteria and applying for citizenship, gets it. I know of as many who did not, as those who did. Singapore can choose to close off this category of applicants, but we have deliberately allowed for this avenue. One reason I can think of, is that boys who become SCs via this route would have to serve NS. Then again, if they are PRs, they also have to serve NS.

[lee_yl]

@doodbug said in PM Lawrence Wong's NDR - Education Portions:

Maybe we need to differentiate scholarships at the university level, and school level. There is generally no bond for PRC or ASEAN scholars at the schooling level; similar to SCs who receive ‘scholarships’ like the EESIS or MOE Pre-University Scholarship though of course the terms aren’t great compared to the scholarships that the PRCs/ASEAN scholars enjoy.

For university scholarships and those on tuition grants, foreigners will have to serve a service obligation in Singapore. I can’t recall how long - is it three years? They can work for any employer, but the employer must be a Singapore company. Singaporeans can also apply for various scholarships at the university level, some which come with bonds, and others, not.

That PRC girl studied here for 4years , the whole package includes (copy and paste from Zeit’s post)

奖学金内容

学费
安置费
宿舍住宿
生活补贴
考试费用
飞往新加坡的经济舱机票
回国通勤费 （两年一次）
医疗津贴及个人意外保险

Yes, EESIS is free but I think the amount involved is different? I am looking at the total sum involved. If our local scholars were to receive a similar quantum from our Ah Gong, I think he/she would need to serve at least a 4-year bond. The PRC RGS girl got it bond free.

[lee_yl]

@bbbay
We see a group of new migrants celebrating National Day on 1 Oct (and not 9 Aug), if you follow Rednote/XHS. We see another another group forming enclaves in the areas near Fort and Meyer Roads, keeping themselves aloof as many are from higher castes, and the examples go on and on.

As of Dec 2023, there were at least 2.5 million foreigner-born S’poreans which is 43.1% of the resident population. I am afraid we may have already gone past the critical mass for assimilation to happen organically.

[lee_yl]

@Imp75 said in PM Lawrence Wong's NDR - Education Portions:

I think the elephant in the room is PRs. Are PRs under any quota? I seem to think they enjoy the best of both worlds. Enjoy subsidised education here then can just go off to overseas education or enjoy university bond free scholarships locally. First gen PR doesn’t need to serve NS correct?

Not enough questioning by the opposition MPs why Singapore policies on foreign talents appeared to be so lopsided.

They get to enjoy the benefits of quality of education and medical care as quasi-Singaporeans yet they can just say goodbye when they have consumed all the benefits.

Besides education, housing is probably another issue that needs to be tighten for PRs.

[bbbay]

@lee_yl said in PM Lawrence Wong's NDR - Education Portions:

@bbbay
We see a group of new migrants celebrating National Day on 1 Oct (and not 9 Aug), if you follow Rednote/XHS. We see another another group forming enclaves in the areas near Fort and Meyer Roads, keeping themselves aloof as many are from higher castes, and the examples go on and on.

If they are not citizen i wouldn’t be too worry. They have no influence over Spore policies. If they are citizens they are too small minority to influence policies. There are 20k+ new citizen yearly. around 60% are from Asean. 30% from rest of Asia. A few thousands new citizen from any countries are still too small a number to influence policies.

I think even among us local born, we do have different lifestyles from each other. There are times we do our stuffs, celebrate our own festivals and times we interact with others in common spaces.

As of Dec 2023, there were at least 2.5 million foreigner-born S’poreans which is 43.1% of the resident population. I am afraid we may have already gone past the critical mass for assimilation to happen organically.

Could it be 43.1% foreign born population (instead of citizen) instead ? And they consist mainly non residential population (permit holders)? We do have around 1.7 million of them. And around half a million PR. Citizens around 3.5 million

[bbbay]

School fees by population status

Primary :
Sporean: free
PR: $305
Asean: $570
International: $985

Secondary
Sporean: $5
PR: $620
Asean: $1030
International: $2050

JC
Sporean: $6
PR: $700
Asean: $1230
International: $2400

These info can be found on MOE site

As for foreigners taking up places in our local universities and denying places of Singaporean. And some Singaporean miss the cut off point narrowly. We could stop foreigners from coming into our local universities. But we should also be prepared other countries doing the same, stopping us from going to their universities. All our president/PSC scholars will then be the ones joining competitions for places in local universities. some of our students will be losing out again. Foreigners awarded local universities scholarships have to work 3 years in return. The group that are awarded scholarships to study in secondary/JC are not bonded. They are too young for us to put to them any bonding decision at their age. I think we should work out and secure some other forms of commitments from them as return for our investments.

[doodbug]

@bbbay said in PM Lawrence Wong's NDR - Education Portions:

@lee_yl said in PM Lawrence Wong's NDR - Education Portions:

@bbbay
We see a group of new migrants celebrating National Day on 1 Oct (and not 9 Aug), if you follow Rednote/XHS. We see another another group forming enclaves in the areas near Fort and Meyer Roads, keeping themselves aloof as many are from higher castes, and the examples go on and on.

If they are not citizen i wouldn’t be too worry. They have no influence over Spore policies. If they are citizens they are too small minority to influence policies. There are 20k+ new citizen yearly. around 60% are from Asean. 30% from rest of Asia. A few thousands new citizen from any countries are still too small a number to influence policies.

I beg to differ on this. Singapore policies are determined or influenced by a variety of factors, including the ballot box. Minorities are influential if (1) they are able to engage in collective action, i.e. they are well coordinated; and (2) if they are loud. Not all minority groups have an outsized influence, some do, some don’t.

On the potential influence of new citizens, they could have significant influence even though at first glance the numbers suggest otherwise. Even at the ballot box, it’s widely acknowledged that about one third of voters will vote for the incumbent, regardless, and likewise, about 20-30% will vote against the incumbent, regardless. The battleground at the ballot box is really for the hearts and minds of the about 30-40% of middle ground voters who could be swayed or persuaded either way. Every party is trying their best to increase the base of their ‘hardcore’ voters as they know that the middle ground voters - it could go either way.

[doodbug]

@bbbay A good number of PSC scholars are already opting to study in local universities.

On these scholarships to foreigners to study in Sec Schools and JCs, it has occurred prevalently since our time though it was the ASEAN scholarships then. The ASEAN scholarships still exist today. Yes you will hear occasional complaints of comparisons especially from NS boys when they see their ASEAN scholar friends go off to university whereas they are stuck serving out NS. But the numbers were small, and the ASEAN scholars generally integrated quite well. A significant number ended up working in SG or marrying Singaporeans and then becoming SCs. My era did not have scholars from China, but there were HK scholars (pre 1997 era I guess and SG was trying to attract them?) There were also scholars from India though the numbers were small.

Fast forward to my kids’ generation, ASEAN scholarships still exist, and now there is a huge group of scholars from China.

I think I am quite undecided on this issue. To stop this flow completely, I would sort of hesitate also, because I do believe all kids benefit from some diversity of backgrounds and experiences. Yet I also see how difficult it is for our local students to swallow, seeing foreign student classmates having school fees fully covered, plus a living allowance.