The State of the Nation

[dunnoleh]

ksi:

dunnoleh:

[quote=\"Way2GO\"]
I think many ppl can see d big picture or some parts of d big picture.
In trying to stay ahead in d race, we must also take care of those left behind, yes?
If u abandon/neglect those injured soldiers in battles, u expect loyalty
n more ppl to join u for future battles?
A nation must also hv a soul.

ordinary soldiers are in no position to address any of the above, all are too busy preparing for PSLE? :roll:

I agree most people are micro in their views of life. Government will have to be macro but they have to take one more step to help the people map the macro to the micro because it is hard for \"micro\" people to see \"macro\". In other words, largely, there is no point preaching macro and appealing to people to change to see, however, it is an art of the government to know how to present the macro with micro benefits to the people to retrofit the macro picture. Are you lost now? :rotflmao:[/quote]too chim for \"micro\" me,
better just study for PSLE la...

[Busymom]

verykiasu2010:

Busymom:

[quote=\"verykiasu2010\"]
the non-whites are mostly recent immigrants, are't they ? from latin america, and if you trace farther, they (the americans) are ALL immigrants from England & elsewhere. Ya, there are some red indians, and also some KKK.

Isn't is the same as Singapore ? Everyone is an immigrant, less than 200 years history...there is no one truly a son of the soil here

so are our service staff, from all over the place....we just have to get used to it

the point is, all these service staff are mostly recent immigrants

I think you are missing my point.

The blacks and the hispanics are as American as the white American. If you want to go that far back in history, then the only natives are the American Indians.

Most of the service staff here should be on permit, no? Do you think they are immigrants?

If you are an employer, and assuming there is a minimum wage that you need to pay, say $2000 per month for a shop sale assistant, would you rather employ someone locally who is able to speak both English and Mandarin, or someone whom you need to bring in from another country (i.e. need to apply permit, find accommodation, etc.) and can only speak either English or Mandarin, but not both?

$2000 per month for a shop sale assistant plus CPF plus medical etc etc = all the retailers in Singapore can close shop and everyone can troop over to JB to shop. don't waste time setting up stores in Singapore

wah, you think retailers can afford $2000 per month shop assistant salary? what a joke[/quote]I said \"assuming\" in my post, not implying that should be the pay.

Now, the real numbers:
- DH met some full-time taxi drivers in the course of his community service work. The take-home pay is from $1200-2000 per month.
- a staff at Bee Cheng Hiang outlet earns $900 a month.
- the security guards at my place work 12-hour shift. Including night shift work, their pay is about $1000, otherwise their basic pay is only about $700 a month. These are locals by the way.
- If our domestic helpers are willing to come here to work at a starting salary of $350- $380 (heard some are still $330), how much does it cost to find foreigners from the same country to come here to be shop assistants?

[verykiasu2010]

Busymom:

I said \"assuming\" in my post, not implying that should be the pay.

Now, the real numbers:
- DH met some full-time taxi drivers in the course of his community service work. The take-home pay is from $1200-2000 per month.
- a staff at Bee Cheng Hiang outlet earns $900 a month.
- the security guards at my place work 12-hour shift. Including night shift work, their pay is about $1000, otherwise their basic pay is only about $700 a month. These are locals by the way.
- If our domestic helpers are willing to come here to work at a starting salary of $350- $380 (heard some are still $330), how much does it cost to find foreigners from the same country to come here to be shop assistants?

Thanks for your sharing

I really salute the people quoted by you who are willing to accept the low low pay. I am sure it is tough on them and their family

These are the people who really feel the competition from the foreign workers, as I think this is where the economics is. Any higher price / wages will mean the service providers got to charge higher price for their products. For example, are we will willing to pay S$70/kg for that bakkwa (present price S$48/kg) ? When the selling price goes up, those who are still willing to buy will dwindle and it means closing shop faster. As it is now, many prefer to shop for grocery in JB.

For taxi driver, you know that every 10 cent increase will cause a flood of complaint letter to the press and the MP's meet the people session will be full of complaint too....are we willing to pay S$5 for the flag down fare and S$0.40 per 385 meter (now is $0.20) ? Actually, only citizens and PR are allowed as taxi drivers - it is a vocation, not an employee-employer relationship. Taxi drivers are hirers who rent the taxi to make a living. How much he earns is up to his own hard work and \"luck\". I am told picky taxi drivers have less \"luck\" because he refuses short distance trips from airport and refuses to go to Jurong industrial estates

\"how much does it cost to find foreigners from the same country to come here to be shop assistants\" - probably similar cost, not only shop assistants, but also waiter, waitresses, pump attendants, chamber maids, cleaners at hawker centres, kitchen helpers in restaurants, etc ...their all in cost to the employers are probably in the region of $800 to $1000 (levy, accommodation, medical, insurance, wages etc) before overtime pay and night shift allowances. When they get OT pay and shift allowances, it makes it attractive for them to work - and this is another area where the local shun : overtime and night shift

and since the basic pay is lower, it is easier for the employer to pay the OT rates (1.5x, 2x, and 3x) and the shift allowances. They are willing to travel in lorry than in an aircond coach....that is also cost difference here

[dunnoleh]

verykiasu2010:

... These are the people who really feel the competition from the foreign workers, ...

or... are these the ones who will compete with foreigners?
It saddens me every time I see a local lose out to a foreigner.
It is worse when I see a local not putting in any effort to try and win.

I dunno whats wrong. :?

A young local colleague just quit this morning after working with us for less than 2 months.
He had 2 sparkling Ivy League degrees and a bright career prospect with us.
But he didn't like answering phone calls after office hours.
We already have a few FT with us who are more than happy to answer calls at night, work on weekends, even public holidays.
Can you guess who the boss will hire next?

[wonderm]

Busymom:

- If our domestic helpers are willing to come here to work at a starting salary of $350- $380 (heard some are still $330), how much does it cost to find foreigners from the same country to come here to be shop assistants?

I think you can't compare the domestic helpers salary with other foreign workers because the domestic helpers' salary are net earnings since they stay at the employer's place and have food provided. I know you are not trying to compare 1 to 1, just think the difference is so great, it is hard to even extrapolate.

[wonderm]

verykiasu2010:

Busymom:

I said \"assuming\" in my post, not implying that should be the pay.

Now, the real numbers:
- DH met some full-time taxi drivers in the course of his community service work. The take-home pay is from $1200-2000 per month.
- a staff at Bee Cheng Hiang outlet earns $900 a month.
- the security guards at my place work 12-hour shift. Including night shift work, their pay is about $1000, otherwise their basic pay is only about $700 a month. These are locals by the way.
- If our domestic helpers are willing to come here to work at a starting salary of $350- $380 (heard some are still $330), how much does it cost to find foreigners from the same country to come here to be shop assistants?

Thanks for your sharing

I really salute the people quoted by you who are willing to accept the low low pay. I am sure it is tough on them and their family

These are the people who really feel the competition from the foreign workers, as I think this is where the economics is. Any higher price / wages will mean the service providers got to charge higher price for their products. For example, are we will willing to pay S$70/kg for that bakkwa (present price S$48/kg) ? When the selling price goes up, those who are still willing to buy will dwindle and it means closing shop faster. As it is now, many prefer to shop for grocery in JB.

For taxi driver, you know that every 10 cent increase will cause a flood of complaint letter to the press and the MP's meet the people session will be full of complaint too....are we willing to pay S$5 for the flag down fare and S$0.40 per 385 meter (now is $0.20) ? Actually, only citizens and PR are allowed as taxi drivers - it is a vocation, not an employee-employer relationship. Taxi drivers are hirers who rent the taxi to make a living. How much he earns is up to his own hard work and \"luck\". I am told picky taxi drivers have less \"luck\" because he refuses short distance trips from airport and refuses to go to Jurong industrial estates

\"how much does it cost to find foreigners from the same country to come here to be shop assistants\" - probably similar cost, not only shop assistants, but also waiter, waitresses, pump attendants, chamber maids, cleaners at hawker centres, kitchen helpers in restaurants, etc ...their all in cost to the employers are probably in the region of $800 to $1000 (levy, accommodation, medical, insurance, wages etc) before overtime pay and night shift allowances. When they get OT pay and shift allowances, it makes it attractive for them to work - and this is another area where the local shun : overtime and night shift

and since the basic pay is lower, it is easier for the employer to pay the OT rates (1.5x, 2x, and 3x) and the shift allowances. They are willing to travel in lorry than in an aircond coach....that is also cost difference here

Agree with verykiasu2010's analysis. On the one hand, I can see how hard it is for the lower income group to have to compete with lower cost foreign workers. On the other hand, this is the fact of life if Singaporean don't want our cost of living here to escalate. Guess the government can improve the safety net to help those affected badly. At the personal level, we and our children just have to continuously improve our own competitiveness. Start with doing well for PSLE? All the best to those taking PSLE next week!

[verykiasu2010]

dunnoleh:

verykiasu2010:

... These are the people who really feel the competition from the foreign workers, ...

or... are these the ones who will compete with foreigners?
It saddens me every time I see a local lose out to a foreigner.
It is worse when I see a local not putting in any effort to try and win.

I dunno whats wrong. :?

A young local colleague just quit this morning after working with us for less than 2 months.
He had 2 sparkling Ivy League degrees and a bright career prospect with us.
But he didn't like answering phone calls after office hours.
We already have a few FT with us who are more than happy to answer calls at night, work on weekends, even public holidays.
Can you guess who the boss will hire next?

wow, Ivy leagues means cannot answer phone calls at night or after office hours ? who he thinks he is ? Even Obama or Hu Jintao or Lee Hsien Loong may need to take calls after office hours or even to be woken up in the dead of nite to deals with time-sensitive issues

we work in an internet-enabled and borderless world. if you are capable, you should seize that as an opporutnity to prove your worth and look forward to the next promotion instead of quitting

i know of people who works as the #1 or #2 in the company and got to also answer calls at night or rush out the email before end of biz day over at NY or SFO, and conference calls at night in Singapore to suit the time zone in London AND New York is the norm......

I will certainly hire the person who is capable and who can take calls from my lawyers or customers in the US at night.

[corneyAmber]

verykiasu2010:

dunnoleh:

[quote=\"verykiasu2010\"]... These are the people who really feel the competition from the foreign workers, ...

or... are these the ones who will compete with foreigners?
It saddens me every time I see a local lose out to a foreigner.
It is worse when I see a local not putting in any effort to try and win.

I dunno whats wrong. :?

A young local colleague just quit this morning after working with us for less than 2 months.
He had 2 sparkling Ivy League degrees and a bright career prospect with us.
But he didn't like answering phone calls after office hours.
We already have a few FT with us who are more than happy to answer calls at night, work on weekends, even public holidays.
Can you guess who the boss will hire next?

wow, Ivy leagues means cannot answer phone calls at night or after office hours ? who he thinks he is ? Even Obama or Hu Jintao or Lee Hsien Loong may need to take calls after office hours or even to be woken up in the dead of nite to deals with time-sensitive issues

we work in an internet-enabled and borderless world. if you are capable, you should seize that as an opporutnity to prove your worth and look forward to the next promotion instead of quitting

i know of people who works as the #1 or #2 in the company and got to also answer calls at night or rush out the email before end of biz day over at NY or SFO, and conference calls at night in Singapore to suit the time zone in London AND New York is the norm......

I will certainly hire the person who is capable and who can take calls from my lawyers or customers in the US at night.[/quote]Actually we have to see the situation in context before jumping to conclusion.

If the answering of phone calls after office hours is occasional and really due to urgent matters, that is fine and this youngster is just lacking in patience.

If the answering of phone calls is a job requirement due to the job, it has to be made known during the interviews, i.e. it will occur frequently.

If the answering of phone calls is due to inefficiency in the company in terms of not writing clearly information frequently or abuse by tardy colleagues who never seem to be on top of their work or tardy and inconsiderate customers, I will also quit.

One situation I detest alot is people who abuses my time.

[verykiasu2010]

ksi:

Actually we have to see the situation in context before jumping to conclusion.


If the answering of phone calls after office hours is occasional and really due to urgent matters, that is fine and this youngster is just lacking in patience.

If the answering of phone calls is a job requirement due to the job, it has to be made known during the interviews, i.e. it will occur frequently.

If the answering of phone calls is due to inefficiency in the company in terms of not writing clearly information frequently or abuse by tardy colleagues who never seem to be on top of their work or tardy and inconsiderate customers, I will also quit.

One situation I detest alot is people who abuses my time.

ya, I need to add that my assumption is that the phone calls are non-trivial

and you are 82 posts away from 10k!!!

[dunnoleh]

verykiasu2010:

Actually we have to see the situation in context before jumping to conclusion.


If the answering of phone calls after office hours is occasional and really due to urgent matters, that is fine and this youngster is just lacking in patience.

If the answering of phone calls is a job requirement due to the job, it has to be made known during the interviews, i.e. it will occur frequently.

If the answering of phone calls is due to inefficiency in the company in terms of not writing clearly information frequently or abuse by tardy colleagues who never seem to be on top of their work or tardy and inconsiderate customers, I will also quit.

One situation I detest alot is people who abuses my time.

ya, I need to add that my assumption is that the phone calls are non-trivial

and you are 82 posts away from 10k!!![/quote]in this case, the problem isn't in the phone calls, it is in the attitude of a bright young man who quit a job that many would die for.
For a quarter of the salary he is getting, most people would happily accept trivial or even prank calls at any time of the day or night.
I really dun get it, especially becoz he has spent a few years in the US doing much longer hours and highly stressed, and he did very well! but but but .... :?