Discussion on Dr Ong Teck Chin
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WeiHan:
Maybe, maybe.... Wah, this just like new Sherlock Holmes lah.
If you are preparing to teach him a good lesson, then you'll keep those emails as evidence. No?Muffins:
But, the guy says that Dr. Ong sent him inappropriate emails and messages. I don't think that he would want to keep messages, especially if there are dirty words or pictures in them.
Would you keep a message with dirty stuff that your \"stalker\" had sent???
Dr. Ong, he says, is not his lover, Dr. Ong is actually stalking him. It's like a stalker following you. Would you want that?
I dun know leh.... keep my head out of these matters in school... dun want any warnings or demerit points coming my way.... :faint: :yikes:
Sherlock Holmes and the Mystery of Dr. Ong....
Eh, can become new non-fiction bestseller! :lol: :rotflmao: -
Muffins:
We all make decisions based on what we know and feel at that time. Don't have regrets, I don't know anyone who regrets getting into ACS yet. If you feel you want to make a change, don't be afraid to talk to your teachers and family about it.haha jencrs!!!
my first choice should have been SOTA.
I had actually wanted it to be SOTA, then changed my mind after thinking about it. Still want to go to SOTA
Even if you don't make a change now, there are plenty of opportunities in the future, because you're still very young. Many Sporeans get so hung up about completing their studies earlier than the other person, but in the bigger picture, so what if you lose a few years here and there to find out what you really want? -
I have a financial advisor that I use from an insurance co. And the reason why I’m sticking to her all these years is that I know she’ll recommend me the products that best meet my needs. She earns more commission if I buy from her co but she’ll link me to another firm’s products if it’s cheaper/better/etc. This is what I call good service.
No point bragging about what a company/school can offer if it’s not there. I still take it that OTC has the student’s best interest in mind when he said it. It probably hurts and rankles staff morale - but the stronger ones will buck up and make it a better place.
And to the comment that a bright spark can make it anywhere. I agree. But being with the creme de la creme will bring out the best. If a school offers the bright kid the exposure, the chances to excel further and to rub with the best and brightest in the land, why not?
I went to a not-so good JC (NOT ACJC, I dun want to inflame another group of pp) during my first 3 months despite prelim results that would have gotten me any JC I wanted (xiao during that time) and then went on to a first tier JC after the results were posted. There IS a difference. -
jencrs:
that's true...
We all make decisions based on what we know and feel at that time. Don't have regrets, I don't know anyone who regrets getting into ACS yet. If you feel you want to make a change, don't be afraid to talk to your teachers and family about it.Muffins:
haha jencrs!!!
my first choice should have been SOTA.
I had actually wanted it to be SOTA, then changed my mind after thinking about it. Still want to go to SOTA
Even if you don't make a change now, there are plenty of opportunities in the future, because you're still very young. Many Sporeans get so hung up about completing their studies earlier than the other person, but in the bigger picture, so what if you lose a few years here and there to find out what you really want? -
hquek:
?? You know it's also in her best interests to provide good service right? She serves you well, sacrifices a little commission along the way, maybe picks up some referral commission, builds a good rapport with another company, keeps you as a long term customer, and you spread good word of mouth about her. In the long run, she'll make far more and in a far easier fashion. And somehow you feel that she loses out? This is what I call a good salesperson.I have a financial advisor that I use from an insurance co. And the reason why I'm sticking to her all these years is that I know she'll recommend me the products that best meet my needs. She earns more commission if I buy from her co but she'll link me to another firm's products if it's cheaper/better/etc. This is what I call good service.
hquek:
So like someone else said, how do you move a school up the rankings if you encourage brighter students to jump ship? As VP why isn't the message \"We're no laggard either, we have good and dedicated teachers as well, so stay in the family and we'll build a better school together\"?No point bragging about what a company/school can offer if it's not there. I still take it that OTC has the student's best interest in mind when he said it. It probably hurts and rankles staff morale - but the stronger ones will buck up and make it a better place.
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jencrs:
Ha ha! No lah, not old boy. But one of St Andrews ;). I did have a straight talking principal back then too, and if we came up short, he would let us know.....
haha I am struggling to understand why an analogy is needed in the 1st place.3Boys:
I am struggling to understand why not. Perhaps you could cite a more appropriate analogy?
3Boys:
No one's knocking his achievements. They are undeniable.We are losing the plot here a little. One needs to keep in view the results. Yeah, if what he did was not coupled with strong leadership, and let to a meltdown in morale and performance, sure, knock him. But if turned the school around and shot them up the academic rankings, who could argue that the methods did not work? Not everyone could do what he did and get away with it, but he had an end-game in mind, and the faith in his own abilities, so we need to view the tactics in light of winning the war, and not on their own.
So what you're saying is that the end justifies the means? To view tactics not on their own but just to win the war?
This is the part where on surveys I'll put 5 on the scale for strongly disagree
Life is as much a journey as it is the destination. And more so during the early impressionable years of a teenager.
Is what he did really so admirable that after all these years it still leaves a bad taste in the mouth of my ex-teachers and my ex-classmates?
But I'm curious to know where you're coming from. It's easy to be a devil's advocate and to make comments as an armchair general to put a positive spin into almost anything. Given a little time, I'd bet anyone could even come up with a case for the Holocaust. Doesn't mean it's right. So are you an Old Boy?
Analogy helps in placing things in the right context. Particularly if folk did not have the direct experience. You have seen that folk here have crafted quite a few of their own, in order to illustrate why they feel that Dr OTC's actions in this regard do not seem as egregious as you think. You used one of your own, the Holocaust.
The ends never justify the means, however, one needs to be careful not to paint the means as egregiously bad if they are not. I don't think one can compare his methods with Hitler can we? His motive was improved academic performance, not genocide. His method was shaming underperformers, not the gas chamber. To be blunt, so what if he left a bad taste in a few people's mouths? A leader can never lead by consensus, you take some counsel, set your compass and go. Where would Singapore be if MM Lee were a softly softly person and dared not tread on people's toes by speaking too bluntly? Are a few bruised egos too big a price for progress?
Where I am coming from? I do not have direct experience obviously, but I have seen situations and been in a few myself where leaders have benchmarked their own companies against competitors and been transparent with staff and customers about shortcomings and the need to improve. I have also been in situations where I have directed folk who have sought our services to alternate venues which could service them better. So the philosophy and approach Dr OTC is practising and expounding is not alien to me. Yes, analogy again, but without which, there is no discussion to speak of.
Further, I bet the board were feeling the same back then. Who wants another suit cut from the same cloth? They were obviously tired of mediocrity and wanted someone to shake things up a little, someone with few ties to the Old Boy network and somehow felt beholden to the vested interests and traditions. Hence the controversial selection of Dr OTC as Principal. Don't you think the board took heat for that? But they backed him for 16 years, did they not?
Alright, as an ex-Saint, I now defer to the ACSians who are aggrieved by his actions
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Wah... still going strong eh
I reckon it will be an internal investigation... so doubt they will disclose the findings publicly... unless the male teacher spills the beans again.
Heard from wifey that ZaoBao actually reported the male teacher's identity and interview, couple days back... any1 got that info? I lazy to read chinese papers... haha! -
3Boys:
It cuts both ways. Analogies can easily lead others into thinking in the wrong direction as well. Which is why I said Holocaust. Hitles and Ong, obviously not the same thing, like how purchasing financial products and a school education is not the same thing. I just took it to an extreme, that's all.Ha ha! No lah, not old boy. But one of St Andrews ;). I did have a straight talking principal back then too, and if we came up short, he would let us know.....
Analogy helps in placing things in the right context. Particularly if folk did not have the direct experience. You have seen that folk here have crafted quite a few of their own, in order to illustrate why they feel that Dr OTC's actions in this regard do not seem as egregious as you think. You used one of your own, the Holocaust.
The ends never justify the means, however, one needs to be careful not to paint the means as egregiously bad if they are not. I don't think one can compare his methods with Hitler can we? His motive was improved academic performance, not genocide. His method was shaming underperformers, not the gas chamber. To be blunt, so what if he left a bad taste in a few people's mouths? A leader can never lead by consensus, you take some counsel, set your compass and go. Where would Singapore be if MM Lee were a softly softly person and dared not tread on people's toes by speaking too bluntly? Are a few bruised egos too big a price for progress?
Where I am coming from? I do not have direct experience obviously, but I have seen situations and been in a few myself where leaders have benchmarked their own companies against competitors and been transparent with staff and customers about shortcomings and the need to improve. I have also been in situations where I have directed folk who have sought our services to alternate venues which could service them better. So the philosophy and approach Dr OTC is practising and expounding is not alien to me. Yes, analogy again, but without which, there is no discussion to speak of.
Further, I bet the board were feeling the same back then. Who wants another suit cut from the same cloth? They were obviously tired of mediocrity and wanted someone to shake things up a little, someone with few ties to the Old Boy network and somehow felt beholden to the vested interests and traditions. Hence the controversial selection of Dr OTC as Principal. Don't you think the board took heat for that? But they backed him for 16 years, did they not?
Alright, as an ex-Saint, I now defer to the ACSians who are aggrieved by his actions
I don't think an analogy was necessary then, because it wasn't a difficult issue to understand, an analogy would unnecessarily complicate the issue. And the more differences we picked out, the further away we stray from the topic at hand.
Would Spore be better or worse off now if MM Lee were different? I don't know, and neither do you. So why go there?
Anyway, ACS is not a country, and should not be governed that way.
Neither is ACS a company, and should not be treated as such. Appointed principals are educators, not CEOs. Which is why I disagree with your analogies and think them misleading. So let's talk about something else. St Andrews were the dominant rugby team some 2 decades ago. Then ACS started to catch up and win more games. How would you feel if your Principal then encourages your players to go join ACS? And how would you feel if that Principal was an ACS old boy?
You seem to be fairly sure of what the board was thinking then. I mean, you said you bet that's how they felt, that obviously they were tired of mediocrity, and that they meant to find someone who wasn't an Old Boy. Any secrets you want to reveal?
I don't presume to know what the board was thinking. Were they unanimous in backing him for all those years? Did the Board have any change of members who were more likely to be supportive of the current mindset and decisions then? Did Ong have any influence on that at all? All guesses and no one outside the board knows. But just because he has the Board's support doesn't mean it's alright.
Now all things being equal, if it meant picking an AC boy or RI boy as principal, I would pick the AC boy for obvious reasons. But like I said before, if he while VP encouraged students to stay, to build a school together instead of jumping ship, and among other things, then ex-RI boy or not, I'd give him a pat on the back and support him as well. -
Anyway, we’re just going to go around in circles. I just hear a lot of OTC is good, OTC is great, and based on the past few years, I can see why he seems that way.
I just wanted to present a different side of Ong, from personal experience, that many do not know about. -
jencrs:
I actually couldn't care less which school my Principal came from. Having a history can both be a help and a hindrance. The right man for the right job is all that matters, I say. Maybe that's where you an I differ, I don't have a hang-up about which old boy was my headmaster.
It cuts both ways. Analogies can easily lead others into thinking in the wrong direction as well. Which is why I said Holocaust. Hitles and Ong, obviously not the same thing, like how purchasing financial products and a school education is not the same thing. I just took it to an extreme, that's all.3Boys:
Ha ha! No lah, not old boy. But one of St Andrews ;). I did have a straight talking principal back then too, and if we came up short, he would let us know.....
Analogy helps in placing things in the right context. Particularly if folk did not have the direct experience. You have seen that folk here have crafted quite a few of their own, in order to illustrate why they feel that Dr OTC's actions in this regard do not seem as egregious as you think. You used one of your own, the Holocaust.
The ends never justify the means, however, one needs to be careful not to paint the means as egregiously bad if they are not. I don't think one can compare his methods with Hitler can we? His motive was improved academic performance, not genocide. His method was shaming underperformers, not the gas chamber. To be blunt, so what if he left a bad taste in a few people's mouths? A leader can never lead by consensus, you take some counsel, set your compass and go. Where would Singapore be if MM Lee were a softly softly person and dared not tread on people's toes by speaking too bluntly? Are a few bruised egos too big a price for progress?
Where I am coming from? I do not have direct experience obviously, but I have seen situations and been in a few myself where leaders have benchmarked their own companies against competitors and been transparent with staff and customers about shortcomings and the need to improve. I have also been in situations where I have directed folk who have sought our services to alternate venues which could service them better. So the philosophy and approach Dr OTC is practising and expounding is not alien to me. Yes, analogy again, but without which, there is no discussion to speak of.
Further, I bet the board were feeling the same back then. Who wants another suit cut from the same cloth? They were obviously tired of mediocrity and wanted someone to shake things up a little, someone with few ties to the Old Boy network and somehow felt beholden to the vested interests and traditions. Hence the controversial selection of Dr OTC as Principal. Don't you think the board took heat for that? But they backed him for 16 years, did they not?
Alright, as an ex-Saint, I now defer to the ACSians who are aggrieved by his actions
I don't think an analogy was necessary then, because it wasn't a difficult issue to understand, an analogy would unnecessarily complicate the issue. And the more differences we picked out, the further away we stray from the topic at hand.
Would Spore be better or worse off now if MM Lee were different? I don't know, and neither do you. So why go there?
Anyway, ACS is not a country, and should not be governed that way.
Neither is ACS a company, and should not be treated as such. Appointed principals are educators, not CEOs. Which is why I disagree with your analogies and think them misleading. So let's talk about something else. St Andrews were the dominant rugby team some 2 decades ago. Then ACS started to catch up and win more games. How would you feel if your Principal then encourages your players to go join ACS? And how would you feel if that Principal was an ACS old boy?
You seem to be fairly sure of what the board was thinking then. I mean, you said you bet that's how they felt, that obviously they were tired of mediocrity, and that they meant to find someone who wasn't an Old Boy. Any secrets you want to reveal?
I don't presume to know what the board was thinking. Were they unanimous in backing him for all those years? Did the Board have any change of members who were more likely to be supportive of the current mindset and decisions then? Did Ong have any influence on that at all? All guesses and no one outside the board knows. But just because he has the Board's support doesn't mean it's alright.
Now all things being equal, if it meant picking an AC boy or RI boy as principal, I would pick the AC boy for obvious reasons. But like I said before, if he while VP encouraged students to stay, to build a school together instead of jumping ship, and among other things, then ex-RI boy or not, I'd give him a pat on the back and support him as well.
As to the board, yes, I am speculating, but I have seen similar inside vs outside hiring decisions at the top level and the reasons are invariably as I have mentioned above. I am open to your and other suggestions as to their motive for appointing him. I had a quick scan of some of the present board members, and there are a fair number of industry luminaries. Yes, ACS is a school, the primary goal is education and holistic upbringing. However, many aspects of running a school are similar to running a company. Why else is the set-up at the governance level like that of a company? Actually there is an article I read somewhere that school principals do need some elements of CEO behaviour or the place would just fall apart. Anyway, are you critiquing his credentials as an educator? Because that was not apparent earlier.
MM Lee? I shudder to think how we would be if he were Lily-livered. Why does Singapore have any right to be different from our neighbours? On the strength of its people? This is the most laughable lie told to gullible S'poreans who can't take a few hard truths in the name of progress.
Alright, not my fight....so I am out of this sub-discussion.
Edit;
reflecting over a nice glass of cabernet at dinner , speaking with the missus, thought I'd just add this. Actually, if OTC had been the principal of St Andrews instead, and the price of shooting up the academic league tables was a few harsh words and bruised egos, I would have taken it anytime.
jencrs, the irony is that he DID deliver, perhaps not for you, but for the generations of ACSians after you.
This is too funny, an SA boy defending a Rafflesian from criticisms of a ACSian.... :lol:
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