Smart but lazy?

[rosemummy]

insider:

Not sure the content of my this post is relevant here but am going to post it anyway.


I deal with preschool teachers, so far hundreds of them.

I somehow discovered a 'pattern', that most who will write a lot of updates/feedback to parents generally do not have writing skills above 70/100. Those have good writing skills, they don't really like to write a lot if they will write at all.

On hand, I have two teachers who are partners of the same class.

One, with OK writing standard, will write in length to update parents their little ones' development in school, at least on an alternate day basis for every parent. She uses up the little com book of each child very fast.

Her partner, who can write good English, will only write a one-liner or max three sentences for the parents.

Then, the inevitable issue came that one parent feedback that the one who writes a lot does not have a good command of English and therefore is unfit to be her child's English teacher.

It's now a dilemma in the hands of my principal that I am yet to see how she is going to resolve the issue. The one with good English is waiting to see the outcome as well since we all know she ever advised her co-teacher not to write so extensively coz this kind of fire (of meeting 'fault-finding' parents) will burn her eventually.

In my working with preschool teachers, I can safely say that it's very rare to find someone who can do a perfect or near perfect work and yet can produce in quantity. This group of teachers will deliver one or two things in almost mint condition. The majority of them deliver jobs in quantity with standard in the 70/100 percentile.

Personally, for my preschool environment, I need the second group of teachers more than the first group coz for kids, you just have to keep giving them variety of fun ideas/activities. Being too perfect are likely to mean limited activities that can be simply too boring.

PS: Parents, would you choose a teacher who can deliver a perfectly structured one or two-liner update sentence of a child or a teacher who can give you details with less than perfect English (standard of 70/100)?

If it's an English teacher, I would think that being able to speak and write in grammatically correct sentences is important. If a teacher's standard is 70/100, I doubt the students could achieve anything more than that without help from others. Young children tends to look up to their teachers. A child can insist something is right (even though it's wrong) because he's taught that in school. It'll be difficult undoing what they had been wrongly taught.

Whether 70/100 is good enough really depends on the situation. My girl had gotten used to the idea that 75% is good enough, since that's an A1 when she was in secondary school. In college, she was happy to score 78 in her first test, until it sank in that this translate to a C.

Certain functions require you to be correct 100% of the time. You can't be making wrong judgment 30% of the time while driving. Many lives could be lost as a result. Similarly, in most (if not all) the professions, not being right 100% of the time can have serious consequences. Carelessness could also be costly for many jobs, whether in terms of lives and limb or financially.

I agree with Chenonceau that sloppiness has to be corrected before it becomes a habit. It's easy to acquire knowledge, but much more difficult to break a habit.

I like the idea of RIVP (been using that without knowing the term) as it teaches a child about grace - that they don't necessarily have to demand their pound of fleah each time. But they can't be taught grace without learning about the law first. I believe RIVP can only work for older kids (primary school onwards) when the ground rules are clear. Consistency in punishment for the same action would work better for younger children.

[Chenonceau]

rosemummy:

I agree with Chenonceau that sloppiness has to be corrected before it becomes a habit. It's easy to acquire knowledge, but much more difficult to break a habit.


I like the idea of RIVP (been using that without knowing the term) as it teaches a child about grace - that they don't necessarily have to demand their pound of fleah each time. But they can't be taught grace without learning about the law first. I believe RIVP can only work for older kids (primary school onwards) when the ground rules are clear. Consistency in punishment for the same action would work better for younger children.

You have PM. It relates to Grace.

I quite agree with you that Little Ones need the consistency. They have simpler minds.

[Chenonceau]

Blobbi:

Thanks for being so forthright and honest, Chenonceau. You probably knew you were going to get a drubbing from some quarters. But you wanted to communicate what you found that worked.

Awwww... thanks! :love:

[rosemummy]

insider:

rosemummy:

If it's an English teacher, I would think that being able to speak and write in grammatically correct sentences is important. If a teacher's standard is 70/100, I doubt the students could achieve anything more than that without help from others. Young children tends to look up to their teachers. A child can insist something is right (even though it's wrong) because he's taught that in school. It'll be difficult undoing what they had been wrongly taught.

Whether 70/100 is good enough really depends on the situation. My girl had gotten used to the idea that 75% is good enough, since that's an A1 when she was in secondary school. In college, she was happy to score 78 in her first test, until it sank in that this translate to a C.

Emmm...most preschool teachers cant really write well and a 70/100 standard is good enough...(those with powderful English seldom become childcare teachers).

I just highlighted a letter issued under the name of the school principal of my P2 son to my older kids that contains the quite standard \"Please kindly...\" error. But OK lah, nothing 'life threatening' and I can't use this to imply that her assistant's English is no good...

Writing feedback to parents and writing an academic paper are quite different matters. Feedback of parents are done within a relatively short pocket of time and if want to write meaningful content, usually it will mean the teachers have to write fast and probably do not have much time for checking of typos, grammar, etc.

My posts in KSP are often peppered with careless typos and grammar. Not that I don't know but I am simply too lazy to edit it. But when comes to academic papers, of course the amount of attention and time paid to such details will be much greater...

So when coming to the concept of 'perfection', I feel it has to be situation-dependent and one should be able to close an eye if perfection is not required in certain situations.

Perfection is always a flaw itself in my eyes coz many times, a perfectionist tends to see the tree but missing the whole forest...

PS: I used to be a perfectionist when I was much younger. Then I learnt it is quite pointless (and many times a nuisance to others) to be so and grew to be wiser to close one eye and sometimes both eyes for many situations...

I do agree with you that we do not need to achieve perfection is every situation. It's really an issue of priority. But young children should be taught the right things, be it values or grammar. As they grow up, they'll have to learn how to prioritise.

I think there's a place for mediocrity and there's a place for excellence. Let me just use the Japanese melon, those that cost more than US$100 per piece, as an example. It's grown meticulously and any flaws are not acceptable. Hence it's high cost. But the market is small as not many can afford that. Most of the time, we pay less than 5% of that price for an ordinary melon. They don't look or taste as good, but at that price, it's good enough.

I suppose for preschool teachers, there's only this much we can expect at a normal centre. You're right in that it's not usually the career of choice for those with a good command of English. But there're also expensive preschools with expat teachers who're native speakers. I guess you get what you pay for.

But I do feel that the Singapore education system does in some way encourage mediocrity. If you can achieve above 75%, there's no value in trying to do better in the subject as it doesn't make a difference. In the US, you need to be scoring in the 90s for an A. I work a lot with lawyers, corporate lawyers to be precise. And you can easily tell the difference in the quality of work between a US lawyer and a Singapore lawyer. I have Singapore lawyers using a previous agreement for another client as a template, and didn't even remember to change the client's name. Typo and grammatical errors are common, even after several drafts. The US lawyers, even after working for more than 2 weeks without sleep, are churning out documents with no typo or grammatical errors. They cost quite a lot more, but I always feel happier paying them.

[Chenonceau]

insider:

Perfection is always a flaw itself in my eyes coz many times, a perfectionist tends to see the tree but missing the whole forest...


PS: I used to be a perfectionist when I was much younger. Then I learnt it is quite pointless (and many times a nuisance to others) to be so and grew to be wiser to close one eye and sometimes both eyes for many situations...

You raise a thought provoking question... Would the type of profession determine how much one values perfectionism?

Tolerance for error in an in vitro fertilisation laboratory would be low... and similarly for surgeons. I don't think I would visit a surgeon known to close one or both eyes to perfection. Eeeeks!!

Bank tellers... engineers in wafer fab plants where one small error can cause losses in the region of 10X12 Mercedes Benz (at S'pore prices). I've notices that different parts of an MNC with different functions actually have different shared values.

[rosemummy]

insider:

While I tend to agree Singapore ed system churns out squared people, I don't agree with it \"does in some way encourage mediocrity\". Singapore ed system pushes for PERFECTION! (maybe in regurgitation) that is too much to bear for many kids... Whether 75% or 90% is an A is not so important per se since usually curving is involved when awarding grades and at tertiary level, kids compete against each other with GPAs. US system and Singapore system are totally two different systems. I prefer the US system but not for the '90s for an A' reason that you shared. I enjoyed my exams in the US with 40 - 50% open books which is seldom practised in Singapore. US tests students on applications but Singapore more testing on memory in my opinion.

Not trying to compare the 2. Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses. Just saying that the way they're graded makes a differrence in the student's attitude towards excellence.

insider:

Hahaha...you surely have met sloppy local lawyers. I definitely cannot accept sloppy lawyers coz I am paying good money to them. So far, the local laywers except one of them whom I used are good (occasional grammar errors still can be spotted but not glaring ones and so are still acceptable to me). No experience with the expat lawyers and so can't compare notes with you...

Just to note that I'm not talking about the 1 man show or small firms. And many a times I find myself having to proof-read the documents they've prepared. I don't find that acceptable even though the consequences may not be serious. That's what I meant by having to train a child to not be careless or sloppy from young.

[fristrom]

Chenonceau:

You raise a thought provoking question... Would the type of profession determine how much one values perfectionism?

Not sure whether the profession determines how much one values perfectionism or is it the other way around i.e. how much one values perfectionism determines your profession.

But I do believe that within each profession, there is a professional standard, a perfection that one strives for.

[jedamum]

rosemummy:

Just to note that I'm not talking about the 1 man show or small firms. And many a times I find myself having to proof-read the documents they've prepared. I don't find that acceptable even though the consequences may not be serious. That's what I meant by having to train a child to not be careless or sloppy from young.

more often than not, firms that send out documents with no errors thrive on a robust inhouse system and protocol. it does not mean that their employees are any less careless in general.

[Chenonceau]

insider:

Chenonceau:

You raise a thought provoking question... Would the type of profession determine how much one values perfectionism?

Full article from:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200802/pitfalls-perfectionism

I don't understand... Didn't seem to flow from my comment? Are we talking about the same thing? Or is it just a random sharing not meant as a response to my question?

Anyway, whilst I am at it, I rather think some professions determine how much people value perfectionism because I see high tolerance for error in some industries (childcare, horticulture), and low tolerance for error elsewhere (medical, aeronautical).

Your post is more about why perfection is bad, is it? These findings are not new.

I don't really think there is any black or white answer to whether perfectionism is good or bad. Because equally, a long and deep stream of motivation research that started in the 1960s and is still very active today, shows how setting high goals lead to high performance.

You expect more, you get more. You expect perfection, you might get it sometimes. You expect sloppiness, you'll get that all the time.

You are right in saying perfectionism can lead to poor performance. In conditions where tasks are new and complex, setting high expectations leads to exactly what you have described... people forgetting, worrying etc... and thus underperforming in a big way.

However, in tasks where there is already task mastery, it is possible to ask for perfection and get it, without unduly stressing the child/employee.

That is why surgeons practice, carpenters apprentice, children do practice math exams... and I always comfort my children if a mistake stemmed from pure ignorance. Expecting perfection (of yourself or others) all the time regardless of situation undermines performance in situations where tasks are complex and novel.

The whole picture should therefore be somewhat more balanced eh? It isn't case of whether perfectionism is good or bad. That becomes a polarizing (and not quite productive) black VS white... good VS bad debate, no? It is case of WHEN one can demand perfection without damaging the child.

The fact is, there are increasingly more and more industries that require perfection as a standard. We certainly expect our Teachers to be perfect. I've noticed and often overlooked teacher marking errors (especially since my son had last year, the most affectionate and loving teacher I've ever met). I was quite happy to lose marks unnecessarily instead of quarreling with and discouraging a Teacher who really loves kids. I told Little Boy that no one is perfect and just a few marks won't make me think better or worse of him. \"Don't sweat the small stuff\", I said. Nonetheless, some parents storm to school and give the poor teacher grief over 1.5 marks.

BUT the Chief Examiner at PSLE needs to strive for perfection or else, t-scores may be miscalculated and children sent to the wrong stream.

Whether one values perfectionism or not is a theoretical question. So what if we concur perfectionism is bad? Firstly, when it comes to judging whether something is good or bad, even the moon has her dark side. Secondly, in the real world, many jobs and many situations demand perfection or consequences can be serious.

Someone was careless and Osama bin Laden got away. Someone forgot to press ONE switch and the company lost SGD1 million in 6 hours. Someone was careless and a Chinese mother took home a Chinese-Indian baby from the IVF centre even though her husband is a Caucasian. A bank teller mistakenly gave out $1000/= twice and 3 managers from the bank spent 3 hours poring through videos, and another 2 hours tracking down the person who was given the money. A rojak seller was careless about hygiene and a beloved Grandma died as a result.

Someone who worked at our national cheque clearing centre got into a huff when she heard that there would be no group bonus if the centre cleared more than 1%(?) of cheques wrongly. She said that in school the pass mark is 50% and so the error tolerance should be at 50%. I wonder what Singaporeans would say if 1 out of 2 cheques we wrote got banked into the wrong account.

Maybe one can overlook a preschool English Teacher's command of English (and I daresay I have done so more times than I can count because it really wasn't important to me when my kids were in preschool) but there are many professions out there (some very humble ones) that brook no error.

Mistakes happen. Perfection is elusive. But I would still lean towards wanting my kids to learn that even if perfection doesn't exist, it is good to try for it in areas where they already know their stuff. If I don't teach them early enough, Life will teach them... and Life's lessons are often more painful. They could lose jobs/promotions/reputation. Of course, then it would be their fault for never having learnt to be careful... but no matter whose fault, my own heart will ache for them.

[Chenonceau]

fristrom:

Chenonceau:

You raise a thought provoking question... Would the type of profession determine how much one values perfectionism?

Not sure whether the profession determines how much one values perfectionism or is it the other way around i.e. how much one values perfectionism determines your profession.

But I do believe that within each profession, there is a professional standard, a perfection that one strives for.

Yeah... heh! I reckon there is some degree of self-selection.