Smart but lazy?

[rosemummy]

insider:

rosemummy:

If it's an English teacher, I would think that being able to speak and write in grammatically correct sentences is important. If a teacher's standard is 70/100, I doubt the students could achieve anything more than that without help from others. Young children tends to look up to their teachers. A child can insist something is right (even though it's wrong) because he's taught that in school. It'll be difficult undoing what they had been wrongly taught.

Whether 70/100 is good enough really depends on the situation. My girl had gotten used to the idea that 75% is good enough, since that's an A1 when she was in secondary school. In college, she was happy to score 78 in her first test, until it sank in that this translate to a C.

Emmm...most preschool teachers cant really write well and a 70/100 standard is good enough...(those with powderful English seldom become childcare teachers).

I just highlighted a letter issued under the name of the school principal of my P2 son to my older kids that contains the quite standard \"Please kindly...\" error. But OK lah, nothing 'life threatening' and I can't use this to imply that her assistant's English is no good...

Writing feedback to parents and writing an academic paper are quite different matters. Feedback of parents are done within a relatively short pocket of time and if want to write meaningful content, usually it will mean the teachers have to write fast and probably do not have much time for checking of typos, grammar, etc.

My posts in KSP are often peppered with careless typos and grammar. Not that I don't know but I am simply too lazy to edit it. But when comes to academic papers, of course the amount of attention and time paid to such details will be much greater...

So when coming to the concept of 'perfection', I feel it has to be situation-dependent and one should be able to close an eye if perfection is not required in certain situations.

Perfection is always a flaw itself in my eyes coz many times, a perfectionist tends to see the tree but missing the whole forest...

PS: I used to be a perfectionist when I was much younger. Then I learnt it is quite pointless (and many times a nuisance to others) to be so and grew to be wiser to close one eye and sometimes both eyes for many situations...

I do agree with you that we do not need to achieve perfection is every situation. It's really an issue of priority. But young children should be taught the right things, be it values or grammar. As they grow up, they'll have to learn how to prioritise.

I think there's a place for mediocrity and there's a place for excellence. Let me just use the Japanese melon, those that cost more than US$100 per piece, as an example. It's grown meticulously and any flaws are not acceptable. Hence it's high cost. But the market is small as not many can afford that. Most of the time, we pay less than 5% of that price for an ordinary melon. They don't look or taste as good, but at that price, it's good enough.

I suppose for preschool teachers, there's only this much we can expect at a normal centre. You're right in that it's not usually the career of choice for those with a good command of English. But there're also expensive preschools with expat teachers who're native speakers. I guess you get what you pay for.

But I do feel that the Singapore education system does in some way encourage mediocrity. If you can achieve above 75%, there's no value in trying to do better in the subject as it doesn't make a difference. In the US, you need to be scoring in the 90s for an A. I work a lot with lawyers, corporate lawyers to be precise. And you can easily tell the difference in the quality of work between a US lawyer and a Singapore lawyer. I have Singapore lawyers using a previous agreement for another client as a template, and didn't even remember to change the client's name. Typo and grammatical errors are common, even after several drafts. The US lawyers, even after working for more than 2 weeks without sleep, are churning out documents with no typo or grammatical errors. They cost quite a lot more, but I always feel happier paying them.

[Chenonceau]

insider:

Perfection is always a flaw itself in my eyes coz many times, a perfectionist tends to see the tree but missing the whole forest...


PS: I used to be a perfectionist when I was much younger. Then I learnt it is quite pointless (and many times a nuisance to others) to be so and grew to be wiser to close one eye and sometimes both eyes for many situations...

You raise a thought provoking question... Would the type of profession determine how much one values perfectionism?

Tolerance for error in an in vitro fertilisation laboratory would be low... and similarly for surgeons. I don't think I would visit a surgeon known to close one or both eyes to perfection. Eeeeks!!

Bank tellers... engineers in wafer fab plants where one small error can cause losses in the region of 10X12 Mercedes Benz (at S'pore prices). I've notices that different parts of an MNC with different functions actually have different shared values.

[rosemummy]

insider:

While I tend to agree Singapore ed system churns out squared people, I don't agree with it \"does in some way encourage mediocrity\". Singapore ed system pushes for PERFECTION! (maybe in regurgitation) that is too much to bear for many kids... Whether 75% or 90% is an A is not so important per se since usually curving is involved when awarding grades and at tertiary level, kids compete against each other with GPAs. US system and Singapore system are totally two different systems. I prefer the US system but not for the '90s for an A' reason that you shared. I enjoyed my exams in the US with 40 - 50% open books which is seldom practised in Singapore. US tests students on applications but Singapore more testing on memory in my opinion.

Not trying to compare the 2. Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses. Just saying that the way they're graded makes a differrence in the student's attitude towards excellence.

insider:

Hahaha...you surely have met sloppy local lawyers. I definitely cannot accept sloppy lawyers coz I am paying good money to them. So far, the local laywers except one of them whom I used are good (occasional grammar errors still can be spotted but not glaring ones and so are still acceptable to me). No experience with the expat lawyers and so can't compare notes with you...

Just to note that I'm not talking about the 1 man show or small firms. And many a times I find myself having to proof-read the documents they've prepared. I don't find that acceptable even though the consequences may not be serious. That's what I meant by having to train a child to not be careless or sloppy from young.

[fristrom]

Chenonceau:

You raise a thought provoking question... Would the type of profession determine how much one values perfectionism?

Not sure whether the profession determines how much one values perfectionism or is it the other way around i.e. how much one values perfectionism determines your profession.

But I do believe that within each profession, there is a professional standard, a perfection that one strives for.

[jedamum]

rosemummy:

Just to note that I'm not talking about the 1 man show or small firms. And many a times I find myself having to proof-read the documents they've prepared. I don't find that acceptable even though the consequences may not be serious. That's what I meant by having to train a child to not be careless or sloppy from young.

more often than not, firms that send out documents with no errors thrive on a robust inhouse system and protocol. it does not mean that their employees are any less careless in general.

[Chenonceau]

insider:

Chenonceau:

You raise a thought provoking question... Would the type of profession determine how much one values perfectionism?

Full article from:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200802/pitfalls-perfectionism

I don't understand... Didn't seem to flow from my comment? Are we talking about the same thing? Or is it just a random sharing not meant as a response to my question?

Anyway, whilst I am at it, I rather think some professions determine how much people value perfectionism because I see high tolerance for error in some industries (childcare, horticulture), and low tolerance for error elsewhere (medical, aeronautical).

Your post is more about why perfection is bad, is it? These findings are not new.

I don't really think there is any black or white answer to whether perfectionism is good or bad. Because equally, a long and deep stream of motivation research that started in the 1960s and is still very active today, shows how setting high goals lead to high performance.

You expect more, you get more. You expect perfection, you might get it sometimes. You expect sloppiness, you'll get that all the time.

You are right in saying perfectionism can lead to poor performance. In conditions where tasks are new and complex, setting high expectations leads to exactly what you have described... people forgetting, worrying etc... and thus underperforming in a big way.

However, in tasks where there is already task mastery, it is possible to ask for perfection and get it, without unduly stressing the child/employee.

That is why surgeons practice, carpenters apprentice, children do practice math exams... and I always comfort my children if a mistake stemmed from pure ignorance. Expecting perfection (of yourself or others) all the time regardless of situation undermines performance in situations where tasks are complex and novel.

The whole picture should therefore be somewhat more balanced eh? It isn't case of whether perfectionism is good or bad. That becomes a polarizing (and not quite productive) black VS white... good VS bad debate, no? It is case of WHEN one can demand perfection without damaging the child.

The fact is, there are increasingly more and more industries that require perfection as a standard. We certainly expect our Teachers to be perfect. I've noticed and often overlooked teacher marking errors (especially since my son had last year, the most affectionate and loving teacher I've ever met). I was quite happy to lose marks unnecessarily instead of quarreling with and discouraging a Teacher who really loves kids. I told Little Boy that no one is perfect and just a few marks won't make me think better or worse of him. \"Don't sweat the small stuff\", I said. Nonetheless, some parents storm to school and give the poor teacher grief over 1.5 marks.

BUT the Chief Examiner at PSLE needs to strive for perfection or else, t-scores may be miscalculated and children sent to the wrong stream.

Whether one values perfectionism or not is a theoretical question. So what if we concur perfectionism is bad? Firstly, when it comes to judging whether something is good or bad, even the moon has her dark side. Secondly, in the real world, many jobs and many situations demand perfection or consequences can be serious.

Someone was careless and Osama bin Laden got away. Someone forgot to press ONE switch and the company lost SGD1 million in 6 hours. Someone was careless and a Chinese mother took home a Chinese-Indian baby from the IVF centre even though her husband is a Caucasian. A bank teller mistakenly gave out $1000/= twice and 3 managers from the bank spent 3 hours poring through videos, and another 2 hours tracking down the person who was given the money. A rojak seller was careless about hygiene and a beloved Grandma died as a result.

Someone who worked at our national cheque clearing centre got into a huff when she heard that there would be no group bonus if the centre cleared more than 1%(?) of cheques wrongly. She said that in school the pass mark is 50% and so the error tolerance should be at 50%. I wonder what Singaporeans would say if 1 out of 2 cheques we wrote got banked into the wrong account.

Maybe one can overlook a preschool English Teacher's command of English (and I daresay I have done so more times than I can count because it really wasn't important to me when my kids were in preschool) but there are many professions out there (some very humble ones) that brook no error.

Mistakes happen. Perfection is elusive. But I would still lean towards wanting my kids to learn that even if perfection doesn't exist, it is good to try for it in areas where they already know their stuff. If I don't teach them early enough, Life will teach them... and Life's lessons are often more painful. They could lose jobs/promotions/reputation. Of course, then it would be their fault for never having learnt to be careful... but no matter whose fault, my own heart will ache for them.

[Chenonceau]

fristrom:

Chenonceau:

You raise a thought provoking question... Would the type of profession determine how much one values perfectionism?

Not sure whether the profession determines how much one values perfectionism or is it the other way around i.e. how much one values perfectionism determines your profession.

But I do believe that within each profession, there is a professional standard, a perfection that one strives for.

Yeah... heh! I reckon there is some degree of self-selection.

[Funz]

insider:

rosemummy:

I work a lot with lawyers, corporate lawyers to be precise. And you can easily tell the difference in the quality of work between a US lawyer and a Singapore lawyer. I have Singapore lawyers using a previous agreement for another client as a template, and didn't even remember to change the client's name. Typo and grammatical errors are common, even after several drafts. The US lawyers, even after working for more than 2 weeks without sleep, are churning out documents with no typo or grammatical errors. They cost quite a lot more, but I always feel happier paying them.

Hahaha...you surely have met sloppy local lawyers. I definitely cannot accept sloppy lawyers coz I am paying good money to them. So far, the local laywers except one of them whom I used are good (occasional grammar errors still can be spotted but not glaring ones and so are still acceptable to me). No experience with the expat lawyers and so can't compare notes with you...

Most times, it is not the lawyers themselves who draft those letters. It's their paralegals. The lawyers just sign.

[Chenonceau]

insider:

Taking this discussion into caning the child if he makes careless mistakes and we imagine the child taking back his marked paper from his teacher. Upon seeing his careless mistakes, he would have felt ‘remorseful’ like anything (“How come I can make this kind of mistake??? How come???”) and then he has to tie his mistakes with the punishment. The kind of complex psychological pain I feel is too much for a child to bear at that maybe still ‘blur blur’ age. So, even given a ‘perfect’ score, this ‘perfectness’ is an artificial one and not a genuine one in a way. ‘Perfectness’ (not in terms of 100% full marks but the best of a child’s effort based on his capability) can be achieved naturally coz kids with an OK IQ and an average conscientiousness will eventually know how to find ways to perfect their own scores (and other things in their life later).

I tend to believe that children have enormous strength / potentials in them, though the strength / potentials maybe of different levels. Building in young children a solid self esteem and guiding them with firm love, understanding, and emotional support, eventually the motivation to be the best that they can be (by minimizing own careless mistakes) will be coming from deep within them instead of by external forces in terms of punishments/rewards/etc (which will not be meaningful and life fulfilling in my opinion).

The discussion veers now towards whether or not a child can overcome his/her own carelessness without intervention? I dunno any research answers that I can share.

I myself never fixed my own carelessness until I wrote an exam for 600 people and the marks were totalled wrongly. I paid far more dearly for that error than 2 strokes of cane that leave a mark which leaves in 2 days. The Husband did fix his carelessness by the time he hit PSLE. Is there a 50% chance it could go either way? I dunno... so I decided to help my son fix his problem so that he wouldn't have to go through what I went through.

Nothing stops you or other parents from waiting it out.

I also agree that children need love, emotional support, encouragement. However, why cannot one have high expectations and still provide all these? Are they mutually exclusive?

As to the question of self-esteem, I have all my life deliberately steered away from self-esteem. There is plenty of research on self-esteem and some of it shows that high self-esteem can lead to negative outcomes. Many megalomaniacs (Hitler, NKF's Durai etc... ) have super high self-esteem. Here again, I realise that I proffer an opinion that is not commonly accepted because everyone thinks that high self-esteem is highly desirable in itself. There is danger in over rating self-esteem, I think.

I preferred to work on self-efficacy... the belief in being able to handle this and that task or overcome this and that challenge. The best way to build self -efficacy is to have one's child experience success at a task.

Little Boy was never a confident boy. This was my fault. I had not realised that the dynamics between The Daughter, 7 years older than Little Boy, had undermined his sense of self-efficacy. Little Boy lost to his sister for 7 years before I cottoned on to what was happening. No matter how hard you try to stop them competing, siblings will compete. Little Boy was always expecting to lose. He had developed a loser's mentality, and very low self-esteem and he had not much self-efficacy at most tasks. This crossed over to school work.

\"Mom, I am not one of those who can do well in Math\"

After he fixed his carelessness, he went and topped the class in Math for the first time. He couldn't believe it. His classmates couldn't believe it to the extent that the whole class broke into applause for him. He has since developed higher self-efficacy is much less shy and more out-going. He also gets a lot of fulfillment from the newfound respect he gained from Teachers and friends.

Higher self-efficacy leads to greater task persistence. Greater task persistence leads to higher life success. Life success positively relates to well-being and fulfillment. All three assertions have research support. Where have I hurt my son? Only on the butt... all other potential outcomes are positive and arises from his new found sense of higher self-efficacy.

I find it odd that so many people think that there are techniques that are inherently good or bad. For me, I refrain from judging techniques because these are just professional tools in a toolbox. It's like saying to a fellow carpenter, the saw is a poor instrument. The hammer is better. You don't get results by judging tools (emotional support VS rewards/punishment) in themselves. You get results by matching tools to situation. There are moments to correct a child. There are moments to let him go. There are moments to put him on your knee and patch him up and say \"You didn't get that grade but I still love you, and I will love you even if you are the dumbest little kid in the world.\"

I have done that too, because that too another research-based motivation technique.

That's why it's so hard to parent. It isn't what you use, but how you use it in conjunction with all the other tools that matter.

Some tools are dangerous when not properly used. RIVP (using the cane) is one of them. I almost regret sharing because it truly is something that you wanna stay away from if you don't know how to control it well.

[Funz]

Sloppiness and perfection. Guess what, I have 2 kids, each representing these 2 opposites.


DD is careless and sloppy. Her work can be untidy and riddled with mistakes that she should not be making. She just gave me a 2 page essay without any punctuations. Her excuse? Aiyah, understood right? And, this is only a draft what.

DS on the other hand seeks perfection to the point that he will erase and re-write and erase and re-write just because the letters are not aligned. These days he is better after we kept assuring him that it is ok not to have perfectly aligned letters and some mistakes are acceptable.

How I wish I can take this 2 attributes of their, mesh it together, mix it well and return to them the combined attributes. Haizz, if only.

With my kids, it is the attitude that I am addressing, not the academic results. I recognise that there is strength in DD’s attitude. With this attitude of hers, she is not afraid to try new stuff and she will walk away unscath even if she fails. DS on the other hand, will not embark on new stuff unless he is certain of success. With that, we know that whatever DS churns out it will be of a certain quality.

The challenge now is in helping them find that middle ground.

DD is very much like me. I am an intuitive, prone to carelessness and mighty lacking in details. And because I recognise that trait, I am trying my best to guide DD to avoid the pitfalls that comes with that trait. I have no idea where DS got his perfectionist trait from. Maybe my father.