Petition to Review the Singapore Education System
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deleted. Duplicate.
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coast:
Coast, if you refer to MOE's page http://www.facebook.com/notes/ministry-of-education-singapore/measures-in-place-in-exam-and-admissions-systems-to-reduce-pressure-on-students-/10150302450237004, the subject grades are not transformed. So if a child gets 91, he will still get his A* even if the whole of the cohort scores above 91. This is like the 'O' levels, everyone gets A1 for scoring >75.
Hi 2ppaamm,2ppaamm:
Chen, did you see MOE's facebook page? They say T-score is not based on bell curve. I know for sure it is, unless it was changed in recent years and I have not kept updated. (Which is quite weird because my last child went through PSLE in 2009).
Then, how is T-score calculated? I know the subject grades (A*, A, B etc) are based on actual achievement and not on peer results, but T-score is.
What do you mean by \"subject grades (A*, A, B etc) are based on actual achievement and not on peer results\"? Unless there is an official statement that gives a mark range for A*, A, B, ... etc ... I think it is always \"transformed\" based on peer results. For e.g., say in PSLE 20XX,
1) For Maths, alot of students score 95 and above
2) For Science, only few students score above 90
If your child scores 91 in Maths ... he might just get an A instead of A* that year while a 80++ score could be an A* for Science. So the \"mark range\" for A*, A, B, ... etc fluctuates each year depending on the peer results for each subject.
So while MOE replies that \"SEAB also does not allow the difficulty of examinations to ratchet up every year\" ... if there are alot of students scoring very high marks for a particular subject ... a 91 is not sufficient for an A*, a 80++ could just be a B ... etc. Hence the concern that it is not a level playing field when rich kids could afford expensive enrichment/tuition which teaches what the schools don't, highly educated parents could coach their kids (assuming they have the time and patience), ... etc.
However, if the teachers and textbooks teach everything that is examinable, then at least kids from an average or low-income background would not be significantly disadvantaged. Otherwise, even if the kid does well on his own (say 91 or 80++), the \"transformed\" subject grades and the eventual T-score would not be comparable to his peers. Hence my \"shock\" when I read posts from parents here that their bright kids struggle with their tests as a significant portion is not taught by teachers.
The above is my personal understanding. To me, some parents will always send their kids to enrichment/tuition no matter what is the system. What is important is schools and teachers have to teach ALL students what is examinable in PSLE. This would mean a bright child who is self-motivated has no issues getting into top 10% of the cohort on his own while other kids would also have a chance to make it as they would realise what they know (or don't) in schools. So we need to understand the issues on why certain schools do not practise that and how MOE can help on this (teachers overload due to other tasks? syllabus too difficult to teach? lack of good resources/materials for the teachers? ...). I strongly believe that we have lots of good teachers out there who care about the kids under their guidance.
The T-score, on the other hand, is a transformed score. Unless they have already changed the system, what I knew it to be was:
((Your marks - mean of cohort)/standard deviation)*10 +50.
If you examine this carefully, this is the same as the normal distribution's calcuation of 'z', which is (x-mean)/s.d. Meaning, the PSLE students are put exactly on the bell curve. Know a little more about this normal distribution here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution
So, a child who is exactly average, will be contributing exactly 50 to his T-score for each of his subject, making the T-score of 200 always the average T-score in any year, no matter how capable he is, his score is derived from this distribution, and against the cohort. Hence, technically, there is no max to T-score, and no min.
It also means that it is hard to tell what T-score is for top 10%, because it depends on the standard deviation that year. Typically, 68% of our students fall within one standard deviation from the mean of 200 (can be higher or lower). And, the top 10% should be about 1.5 standard deviations higher than 200. So if the standard deviation is high that year, your top 10% will have a lower T-score, if the s.d. is low, the top 10% (or cutoff for 3rd language) should be relative higher.
Unless the ministry has changed this, in which parents like us are not informed, or if there are moderations done, in which they are not revealed. Then I tend to agree with Chen that we are put on a bell curve.
Now if MOE says that T-score is not a bell curve, then they should really tell us what distribution they are using, or how this T-score is calculated (the calculation above was given to me 5 years ago by my son's school principal). Why should this be a secret? Or maybe it will take many man years to derive the forumula?
Sorry I'm a bit technical here. Just trying to put across a point. Also, don't ask me the technicalities of this statistical studies, I'm just doing this quickly. If I make a mistake in my calculation/formula, let me know. But largely, I know I should be right. -
2ppaamm,
A small point-
there seems to be a a typo in the T-score formula
it should be
((Your marks - mean of cohort)*10/standard deviation) +50
The times 10 is missing in your post.
Excellent discussion going on here , thanks ladies -
Sun_2010:
Oops, changed that already. I am just doing this from memory... Thanks for the reminder, so looks like the formula is still in force, aye? So our children are put on a bell curve.2ppaamm,
A small point-
there seems to be a a typo in the T-score formula
it should be
((Your marks - mean of cohort)*10/standard deviation) +50
The times 10 is missing in your post.
Excellent discussion going on here , thanks ladies -
coast:
Coast, your last para here really summarized the whole problem with our education system. Seriously, if a child cannot work on his own for his achievement, what are we teaching the kids? Will they be able to get tuition when they are in university, when they need someone to solve their work problem? THis also goes agst the fact that education levels the playing field. Clearly, if students are not taught what they shld be taught in school and really needed tuition to do well, MOE must seriously look at the whole system. It is no longer parents who are kiasu. MOE cannot even provide the basic necessity for the students to do well, never mind if they put in the hard work or not. THis is so different from out time when all we had to do was pay attention in school, do our homework diligently and revise well and ace the papers.
The above is my personal understanding. To me, some parents will always send their kids to enrichment/tuition no matter what is the system. What is important is schools and teachers have to teach ALL students what is examinable in PSLE. This would mean a bright child who is self-motivated has no issues getting into top 10% of the cohort on his own while other kids would also have a chance to make it as they would realise what they know (or don't) in schools. So we need to understand the issues on why certain schools do not practise that and how MOE can help on this (teachers overload due to other tasks? syllabus too difficult to teach? lack of good resources/materials for the teachers? ...). I strongly believe that we have lots of good teachers out there who care about the kids under their guidance.
Having read 2ppaamm reply, MOE must also explain pt 2 and pt 5 of their reply. It is very confusing to say that they do not grade according to the bell curve when the t-score is based on the bell-curve. As long as the t-score is graded based on the bell curve, which is the all important score secondary schools look at, then PSLE score is based on bell-curve. There is no need to play with words and confuse everyone. -
If you plot the nation's t-scores on a frequency chart in any one year, what is the resultant shape of the curve?
I first sent this question to someone quite senior in MOE on 20th May, who wrote the first response to our petition. I then posted the question in this forum thread at least TWICE. I also posted the same question on MOE's Facebook as a response to their Notes on bell curve grading. For some reason, there has been TOTAL SILENCE, even though this forum thread has been brought to MOE's attention, and the senior person had actually thanked us for the first round of feedback (which contained links to this thread).
Presently, I can't help but think the following...
(1) MOE will only respond to feedback which has been sent directly to the Minister of Education. I did that the first time with the petition and got a response. Unless the Minister has been advised, bureaucrats intend to sweep the feedback under the carpet and pretend social media is not worth their attention.
(2) If they really were playing with words in their first response to us, then it could well be awkward for them to respond. So maybe they've decided to ignore us, hoping that we will go away.
(3) Maybe they need more time. This is odd because at the click of a few buttons, an entire dataset can be transformed into a curve within seconds.
Actually, all we want is to join hands in honest and open dialogue (not intelligent feints and thrusts with words, references to statistical processes and interesting KPIs followed by silence). We're not interested in lynching people or in flaming people or assigning blame. No one expects MOE to be perfect, but we want to know about the future of our children and grandchildren.
If MOE is silent, then there is nothing we can do at present. We can however, in a month or 2, raise this matter to the new Minister of Education by emailing him directly... or we can ask our MP contacts to raise this matter to the Minister. If any parent can help here too (with the MPs I mean), please send him/her the links directly? If we all do this, it will help.
Alternatively, we can wait. Every year at around SA1 period, P5 parents will panic because they will come face to face with the spectre of the PSLE for the first time, and they will realise what I realised this year too. At that time, I will resuscitate this thread, drop a PM to 2ppaamm, and the rest of you... and we can let things snowball from there. This can be done every year from 2011 through to 2014. By that time we would have records of such feedback being in existence from 2009 (the year Pam wrote her forum letter) to 2014.... and a record of being ignored (and brushed aside) for just as long... Ummm... Pam, what happened to the link to your forum letter? I can't find it anymore.
If the PSLE problem gets worse, then the pressure will build up quite naturally and this thread will become a sort of focal point. In view of the 6 years of sincere feedback given and consistently ignored, I'm willing to bet that THIS will be an election issue in 2016. I am so sorry. I am not normally so intransigeant in the position I take, but this is really important.
It could well be that the MOE will quietly and efficiently fix the problems parents face... and so this thread becomes irrelevant. That will be a good thing. Only time will tell if this thread stays relevant or becomes irrelevant. -
For easier retrieval, I am reposting this next to the note above - evidence that children need enrichment to pass exams.
janet_lee88:
My son is at the top of the class for P5 SA1. Without enrichment/tuition (from me), he would have FAILED. He doesn't need enrichment/tuition to STAY at the top, even though he is at top. He needs enrichment/tuition to PASS. It just happens that he is a hardworking boy and if he has been adequately taught, he goes to the top. But if he has not been taught, he can't make it up and so he too fails. Something is wrong when an averagely intelligent child who is hardworking on his own, NEEDS enrichment to PASS exams.Some top students attend enrichment/tuition to stay at the top in their classes, while some others need tuition to pass exams.
Let me now provide evidence to show that enrichment is NEEDED to pass exams. In blue below, is text taken from Science Heuristics website here - http://www.scienceheuristics.com.sg/background.htm..
With the demands of the new economy, education has taken on a new role. It is no longer enough to know or memorise facts and accumulate knowledge. The purpose of education, now, is to equip the learner with a set of tools to be used together with the knowledge possessed to solve problems in new situations (Problem Comprehension, Knowledge Application and Heuristics)
As the testing (examinations) in schools gear towards such new education trend, stake holders perceive the difficulty level of examinations to be rising. Some stake holders resort to address this new testing trend by force feeding their children with more practices, not realising that 'one cannot land a big catch with a small rod'. Without the right tools (Process Skills), real learning becomes a herculean task.
QUESTIONS: If these process skills (tools) are part of what is tested in mainstream education...
(1) Why are they not mentioned on MOE's syllabus website?
(2) Why do they not appear (not even the labels appear) in official textbooks?
(3) Why are they not named and described in school handouts given to children?
(4) Why do I have to fork out $120/= to buy parent guidebooks that codify the tools/process skills my child NEEDS to PASS exams.
If you click on this link, you will see that the key Consultants from Science Heuristics were PSLE Presiding Examiner and Chief PSLE Presiding Examiner - http://www.scienceheuristics.com.sg/consultants.htm from MOE.
These people, previously Presiding Examiners clearly saw a gap in MOE's delivery of education, and were enterprising enough to leverage on it. There is something strange when those who know the PSLE testing methodology inside-out and know how to codify and teach these ESSENTIAL PROCESS SKILLS (I use the word from this link's bottom of page - http://www.scienceheuristics.com.sg/background.htm) QUIT FROM MOE, and then went one up on the MOE by developing high quality materials (charged at $40 per pop) that are far superior to school textbooks and school materials.
Indeed,
(1) school textbooks,
(2) syllabus write-ups that are publicly available
(3) school handouts
do not attempt to codify these ESSENTIAL PROCESS SKILLS at all in any coherent manner.
QUESTIONS:
If these are essential process skills,
(1) what'll happen to children whose parents CANNOT AFFORD to pay $120/= for 3 parent guidebooks.
(2) what'll happen to children whose parents DO NOT KNOW HOW to use these guidebooks
(3) what'll happen to children whose parents DO NOT KNOW ABOUT these guidebooks
For those parents with children in P1 and P2, and think all is well. Know that when your children come to P5 and P6, unless something is done now, you too will have to invest $120/= to buy materials that does not come through the school system in any codified form, and which your kids need to PASS.
Please Mr Heng Swee Keat, something is wrong. We are giving feedback because something is wrong. It doesn't matter who was wrong and who should be blamed. Everyone makes mistakes, and we can all forgive and forget... but please help us.
To all parents, we need more signatures http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?SgEd2011
Here is a parent who clearly cannot afford to buy external materials from shops... http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&p=428253#p428253.
Here is a parent (Raghupavithra) who has no clue how to teach her child things that the school textbooks do not document... http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=11079&start=250. -
Chenonceau:
Hi Chenonceau,Coast... I'm not entirely sure but I think Pam meant this (see text in blue below, taken from - http://www.tuitioncentresingapore.com/PSLE-information-psle-guide-about-the-psle.html) -----
Grading System
For the core examinable subjects, the following grading system is adopted.
Mark Range Grade
91 and above A*
75 to 90 A
60 to 74 B
50 to 59 C
35 to 49 D
20 to 34 E
Below 20 F
Thanks for sharing this. I took a quick look at the website and found that there are some useful information ... for e.g., in this link
http://www.tuitioncentresingapore.com/PSLE-subjects-what-is-the-PSLE-Singapore.html
\"There is a two-section composition question comprising of functional writing, also known as situational writing, where students write an informal or a formal letter, memo or note, and \"situational writing\",an essay usually written in the form of a narrative or third person drama. Two teachers are required to grade a composition paper, and the disparity in scoring made by each teacher should be minimal, and the average of the scoring taken if the disparity is small in order to yield the score for the questions. If the disparity is too large, the question papers are required to be re-graded, this time with three teachers.\"
This is also what I have learnt from a recent workshop I attended. So the website does provide information that seems reliable. We do have to bear in mind that it is still not an official channel. Back to the PSLE mark range, if it is so straightforward, why is this not listed in MOE or school websites?
I understand the rationale of not having a fixed PSLE mark range for subject grades. In any case, the marks will be transformed to a T-score anyway (ranking against peers).
As mentioned in my earlier post, I personally do not think ranking against peers is the key factor of not having a level playing field ... I am focusing more on how widespread is the practice of schools/ teachers NOT teaching what is examinable in PSLE ... and by teaching ... I do not mean rushing through the syllabus (with the school assumption that most students have been taught by parents or enrichment/tuition) but in an acceptable pace. Proper teaching will make it a level playing field for ALL students.
Even though it is not an important issue, for the benefits of the parents and kids especially those going to take PSLE soon, I still hope someone would be able to point us to an official confirmation about how PSLE subjects are graded ... be it a straightforward mark range or based on some formula depending on how well the cohort did. -
Chenonceau:
Hi Chenonceau,coast:
To me, some parents will always send their kids to enrichment/tuition no matter what is the system. What is important is schools and teachers have to teach ALL students what is examinable in PSLE. This would mean a bright child who is self-motivated has no issues getting into top 10% of the cohort on his own while other kids would also have a chance to make it as they would realise what they know (or don't) in schools. So we need to understand the issues on why certain schools do not practise that and how MOE can help on this (teachers overload due to other tasks? syllabus too difficult to teach? lack of good resources/materials for the teachers? ...). I strongly believe that we have lots of good teachers out there who care about the kids under their guidance.
:goodpost: Referring to \"resources/materials\"... Not surprising leh... since the really good resource writers can sell their books for $40/= a pop if they LEAVE MOE and start their own thing.
Seriously, compare your official Math textbook with Onsponge... and then with your child's P5 SA1 paper and you will see that Onsponge is much better written and more in line with the exam paper. \"Some schools use Onsponge as the textbook\" said my son's Math Teacher.
Next, compare any of the school-based materials given on Model Drawing (whether to parents during workshops or to children in the form of textbooks and supplementary materials) with Math Heuristics' Model Approach to Problem-Solving: Stack and Split to Solve Challenging Problems Fast, and it is clear that Math Heuristics' $40/= book covers model drawing far more comprehensively and coherently in a SINGLE book than any school-based resource my son has received.
From what I know, current school teachers can also publish assessment books and sell
So they do not have to leave MOE to do that.
Thanks for sharing about the good materials, my ds is too young for me to need these books now but many parents who are reading this should find it useful for their older kids. I would think it is a simple issue if it is just a matter of asking schools to use these materials (whether as reference or assessments). Besides, I think many HODs and teachers would have been aware of these materials. No matter what, schools are still concerned about their PSLE performance. Schools are already using external materials and have outsourced certain enrichments (during regular school hours) such as speech & drama, certain PE niche areas to external parties ... so why are they not using these good materials? It is unlikely to be a cost issue for the schools and likely to be taken in conjunction with the other issues (teachers overload, too difficult to teach the entire class, ... etc) -
coast:
I would think it is a simple issue if it is just a matter of asking schools to use these materials (whether as reference or assessments). Besides, I think many HODs and teachers would have been aware of these materials. No matter what, schools are still concerned about their PSLE performance. Schools are already using external materials and have outsourced certain enrichments (during regular school hours) such as speech & drama, certain PE niche areas to external parties ... so why are they not using these good materials? It is unlikely to be a cost issue for the schools and likely to be taken in conjunction with the other issues (teachers overload, too difficult to teach the entire class, ... etc)
Maybe parents will scream if their booklist contained books at $40/= per pop. And I'm not sure but in most schools, the official textbooks are compulsory, so these $40/= books would be on top of the compulsory book list? If that happens, MOE cannot even pretend that education is inexpensive.
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