Petition to Review the Singapore Education System
-
Chenonceau:
What is the objective of the petition? I feel that if through this process, you can get a dialogue with the ministry, that will be a good start. If we manage to get that dialogue going, you can always gather more points and bring them out at that time.
Website won't allow changes... must ask for special permission. Even then, I think one shouldn't change the petition at all because people signed what they read... and after they sign, then I change, is quite disrespectful and destroys the integrity of the petition process.buds:
Can the petition allow
(at this stage) for some teeny changes or inputs say... additonal thoughts
on ideas to better the system as the discussions here evolve, in the event
that more constructive thoughts spring to mind?
People can come back and say they no longer agree and that the petition has changed in a way that they no longer support. Best is to send the petition link together with this thread link where people have come up with dissenting views, and present the full discussion as is - without any censorship on my part.
Like Edureach says, he is an ordinary fellow and I am an ordinary gal. My views should not take precedence over another's views. Let the thread stand for itself and may the best ideas win.
Or it is to ask for changes in these areas only? Perhaps we can lobby for a committee or something of parents who form as a consultation/feedback panel for the ministry. That would be a good outcome too. Basically, I think it is better to have a continual process rather than a one time action. With the former, parents can fine tune the education system together with MOE. I know I sound too idealistic, but hey, we can dream big dreams, right? -
NickleBee Tutors:
I think the mistake in the friend's answer is that the 2 units in the first statement and second statement are inconsistent with each other.
Hi 2ppaamm,2ppaamm:
The year was 2005, and DS1 was only in P5. He came home with his SA2 Maths paper with a score less than 90, the lowest he had ever obtained for Math, and he was quite upset. I spotted a few errors in the marking, a total of about 7 marks. I sent him back to school with the paper to be checked and confident it would be regraded. After many weeks, he came home with the same marking errors after seeing his form teacher, Maths teacher and marking teacher, and he could not explain to me why because he did not understand why.
I then guided him to speak to the Math HOD in the school. My son came home that day and told me that the Maths HOD agreed that his solution was right, but nothing could be changed because \"it was too late\", the marks were already submitted to MOE. DS1 cried in school that day upon hearing this.
Since I knew the principal personally and was always impressed with the way he conducted himself and ran the school, I was sure he would right any wrong. Had it been another school principal, I would have just let the situation go. I knew any other principal would not have 'dared' to own the mistake. The principal did not disappoint me. He arranged for a meeting. Without even looking at DS1's solution, he told me that they were the experts and their decision should be final. It did not matter that my first degree was in Maths, and was teaching Statistics in a teritiary institution at that time. Their decision was final, I was told.
Not contented with the school's reply, I went on to seek four other independent opinions. I wrote to MOE, a website in States, the writer of the textbook the school was using, and a former Maths HOD in RGS. All them agreed that DS1's solution was correct. I then wrote to inform the school. The school was not interested in any other replies except MOE's. You can find DS1's answer to the question and MOE's reply at the end of this post.
I could not understand why ALL the teachers could not understand his working and solution, when it was crystal clear to me that his solution was correct. Perhaps it was because he had no tuition and did not know a standard answer. I therefore called up a good friend whose son was in the same class. She forwarded her son's answer to me. Which can be found at the end of this post as well. To my amazement, his answer was not exactly correct but he was given the full credit for this question (can you spot the error?).
The principal was fuming mad when I pointed out the marking errors to him, I believe he thought I was all out to look for an error. I wasn't, that was the only other student's paper I looked at, and it happened that there was a marking error. The school then decided that no one could decide if my son's answer was right except a professor from NIE, whose name was never revealed to me. The next time I asked, the Vice-Principal told me that professor said it was wrong because there could never be a fraction of two ratios. (But that wasn't a fraction; he drew a line across his answer). I did not bother to argue anymore, not because I agreed, but because I saw no point in pursuing this matter further. The school was more interested at protecting its position with MOE than ensuring a child was given due credit for his work. Bottomline: My son's answer was correct and he was not given a single mark because teachers could not comprehend his steps. The school admitted to the two other marking errors, but conveniently left his marks unchanged. The marking error on his friend's paper was never corrected as well. The records at MOE was therefore left in tact.
After the whole incident, my son approached me for a favour. He told me never to meddle with his work again. He told me he could fend for himself and this whole episode only made him unpopular among his teachers. (He was a very popular student.) I agreed.
Having looked at the 'model' answer, I finally understood what this education system wanted. They did not want creativity, they did not want a short method or an alternative method. They wanted a typical way of solving a question, an easy way for teachers to award marks. I then told my son to stop spending time to think up clever and innovative problem solving methods for standard questions and use tried and tested methods teachers are familiar with to solve. I also spent two weeks teaching him a few standard tricks I knew would help him solve all problems at PSLE level. That's about all the coaching he needed for PSLE Maths.
The next year, I met the principal again during the school's sport carnival. My son was participating in the competition. He won six gold medals at the meet. For each, he went forward to receive the medal. Every single time he was there to collect the medal, the crowd would clap or cheer. The principal would either be touching his nose, rubbing his eyes, or looking elsewhere. He made it a point not to clap even once in the six times my son went up to get his medals. I had forgotten the whole incident. He had not.
During the P6 prelims, DS1 scored 99.5% for his prelims exam. The only student out of two schools (including GEPers) who scored full marks (rounded up) in the cohort. It was a difficult paper. I went on and taught a few more students the same tricks. All those I taught (free) including my children, obtained A* for PSLE. It was not thinking skills, creativity or problem solving skills the markers wanted. They wanted to have a way to award marks. I found a methodology! I helped a few students scored well for PSLE Maths and got many thank you notes from their parents, but I also killed their creativity along the way.
The principal was promoted and became a secondary school principal in 2008.
Here's the question and how my son answered it:
QUESTION:
1 kg of pears cost as much as 1.5 kg of apples. Mother spent $18 on 2 kg of pears and 4.5 kg of apples. What is the cost of 1 kg of apples?
DS1's ANSWER:
Pears : Apples
3:2
----------------------
6: 9
[$18 (15 parts)]
Cost of 9 parts -> 18/15 x 9 = $10.80
Cost of 2 parts -> $10.80 x 2/9 = $2.40
Cost of 1 kg of apples is $2.40
RESPONSE from MOE:
The solution is correct.
You may want to clarify with the person who said that the answer was wrong to find out more. Regards,
Mdm TSH Curriculum Planning Officer/Mathematics
Curriculum Planning & Development Division § Ministry of Education,
Singapore § Tel +65 6 879 6599
http://www.moe.gov.sg/
DS1's classmate's ANSWER:
1 unit -> 1 kg pear + 1.5 apples
2 units + 1.5 kg apples ($18) -> 2 kg pears + 4.5 kg apples
2 units -> 2 kg pear -> 3 Kg apple (the marker put a tick here)
$18 - 1.5 kg =
1.5 kg apples -> $18 / 5 = 3.60
0.5 kg apples -> 3.60 / 3 = 1.20
1 kg apples -> 1.20 x 2 = $2.40
1 kg of apples cost $2.40. (another tick here)
Your son's answer is correct however he could have expressed his \"thought process\" on how he arrived at the answer in a better way. What teachers are marking for is the thought process and not specific methods per se. MOE teachers are trained to accept any mathematical methods that are logical and mathematically correct. As long as you are able to show satisfactorily how you arrived at the answer in a clear and logical manner, the teacher has to give the marks.
The problem with your son's answer is that although it is a very simple and elegant solution (and I love elegant maths solutions), he did not have the proper labels and statements to show precisely how his thought process led him to the answer.
DS1's ANSWER:
Pears : Apples
3:2
----------------------
6: 9
[$18 (15 parts)]
(my comments :
1)What does the ratio signify? Is he referring to Weight or Price of fruits? As long as your son had placed the label \"Ratio of cost of 1 kg of Pear to 1 kg of Apple\" he would have made his working much clearer and everything would have been fine. But as he didn't do so, the teacher would have to assume that he was referring to the weight of the fruits, had mis-read the question and inverted the ratio which would have made his whole working based on a fallacy which would have voided his marks.
2) What does the dotted line between the 2 ratios signify? Is it \"Before\" and \"After\"? are the 2 ratios even comparable with each other? And what does $18 (15 parts) mean? $18 times 15 parts? Where did the parts come from? Are they 2 separate and unrelated numbers? No one can tell just by looking at your son's answer.
I can see that what your son was trying to say was that :
Since 1 kg of Pear costs 3 units, 2 Kg of pears would cost 6 units
Since 1 kg of Apples costs 2 units, 4.5 kg of apples would cost 9 units.
Thus 2kg Pear + 4.5kg Apples => 15 units => $18
If he had just written his thought process down along these lines, he would have received the full marks for such a question.
However as he did not do proper labelling and write up proper workings, he failed to bring his logic/thought process across satisfactorily to the marker. As the marker cannot see how your son arrived at his solution in a satisfactory manner, they cannot give him method marks.
So this had nothing to do with \"thinking skills, creativity or problem solving skills\" or specific \"methodontology\". This is simply a case of your son knowing how to do the question yet failing to communicate his methods across adequately to the marker. For students like this, i tell them that the first thing all mathematics students learn is the bringing of mathematical workings and ideas across to another person clearly and logically. If even great mathematicians were trained to do so when they were young, i see no reason why primary school students cannot write down the ideas in their heads onto the exam paper clearly and in a sequential manner.)
Cost of 9 parts -> 18/15 x 9 = $10.80
Cost of 2 parts -> $10.80 x 2/9 = $2.40
Cost of 1 kg of apples is $2.40
As for the son's classmate's working,
DS1's classmate's ANSWER:
1 unit -> 1 kg pear + 1.5 apples (Good)
2 units + 1.5 kg apples ($18) -> 2 kg pears + 4.5 kg apples
(Here, he showed that he's using the 1 unit from the above statement to make a substitution. although I would not have recommended the bracketed $18. This would have been better
2 units + 1.5 kg apples -> 2 kg pears + 4.5 kg apples -> $18)
2 units -> 2 kg pear -> 3 Kg apple (the marker put a tick here)
(Good, He shows understanding that if 1 kg of pears cost as much as 1.5 kg of apples, 2 kg of pears would costs as much as 3 kg apples. Following which he substituted 2kg of pears with 3 kg of apples)
$18 - 1.5 kg =
(I have no idea what this is)
1.5 kg apples -> $18 / 5 = 3.60(Ah he skipped a step here. I would have preferred if he had written \"Costs of 2 kg of pear = Cost of 3 kg apples
Since, 2 kg pear + 4.5 kg apple -> $18
Therefore 3kg apple + 4.5 kg apple -> $18)
0.5 kg apples -> 3.60 / 3 = 1.20
1 kg apples -> 1.20 x 2 = $2.40
1 kg of apples cost $2.40. (another tick here)
Although this student had missed a step, it did not impeded the overall flow of information from the student to the teacher. The teacher could see that he had made the logic step that \"2 kg of pears would costs as much as 3 kg apples\" which would be crucial to solving the problem. From there onwards, the rest is simple arithematic.
I hope this has been useful.
Yours
Zhou Shicai
NickleBee Tutors
Also, in your explanation above, actually it should be the cost of 4.5kg of apples is equal to the cost of 3 kg of pears, and that brings us to $18/5 = $3.60 for every kg of pear in the statement
2kg of pears + 4.5kg of apples = $18 -
2ppaamm:
Or it is to ask for changes in these areas only? Perhaps we can lobby for a committee or something of parents who form as a consultation/feedback panel for the ministry. That would be a good outcome too.
The petition is a match stick to light a discussion. Once it has achieved its purpose it should be reduced to nothingness. The discussion can and should range far and beyond the ideas in the petition. The ideas in the petition should also be scrutinised.
I dunno about consultation/feedback panel... I think Ministry should garner views from as many parents as possible. A panel is still limited in its input... especially if permanent (groupthink is still possible). Besides, who would wanna be in that panel? It's more work and time investment ya know.
MOE should use NVIVO software to analyze themes from this thread. It's a software that supports an analytical technique (called grounded theory - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grounded_theory) designed for textual data (as opposed to numbers data). MOE should conduct interviews with parents and surface themes and concerns using NVIVO too. MOE should talk to children.
There could be scope to run IQ tests amongst NORMAL STREAM children to see if we have many closet 120 IQ kids there. If there are many, then our system is wasting talent. There is scope to survey children in the top 2 classes and bottom 2 classes of every school, run \"structural equation models\" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_equation_modeling) using LISREL or AMOS... to ascertain the part to which their academic success is due to tutors, to IQ, to teachers etc...
From a Industrial Organizational Psychologist's view point, there are so many ways to collect data, run the numbers, crunch the text to determine the terrain. We need to know the terrain well before anything can be done. All I want is a review - a study. I do not doubt that our government has access to researchers and resources able and willing to do the work.
As a social scientist, views remain views unless backed by data. When you can argue as convincingly as I can, then you know that you had better be careful not to argue so convincingly that reality is distorted by clever arguments. There are ways and means to test the validity of views. We have THREE research universities, each with a social science department. We do have the expertise to test these views and make sure which is correct BEFORE we do anything. I think we should focus on gathering high quality data, and study it carefully before we proceed. The study should be done with the highest standards of scholarship to ensure impartiality and objectivity.
Without data, views remain views... and if the wrong views are implemented because someone was convincing, then a nation's children pays the price. I do think that the fellow who proposed to halve the Mother Tongue weightage forgot to gather data... he/she only argued convincingly.
Nope... I doubt a panel is sufficient to represent the terrain sufficiently well. There are some truths that need to first be established.
- Is it true that we have too many children of high IQ in normal stream?
- Is it true that without tutors, children cannot pass?
- Is it true that the greater predictor of academic success today is no longer child ability but access to tutors?
There are social science methods that can answer these questions, and they should be answered with the highest standards of research rigour because our children are important.
Ehhhh... I write all this goobledy gook in the hope that MOE reads hor... there are experts in MOE who understand goobledy gook. I hope!! -
2ppaamm:
Thank you, 2ppaamm, for sharing your experience. Just reading it already makes me boil. It is indeed an eye opener.The year was 2005, and DS1 was only in P5. He came home with his SA2 Maths paper with a score less than 90, the lowest he had ever obtained for Math, and he was quite upset. I spotted a few errors in the marking, a total of about 7 marks. I sent him back to school with the paper to be checked and confident it would be regraded. After many weeks, he came home with the same marking errors after seeing his form teacher, Maths teacher and marking teacher, and he could not explain to me why because he did not understand why.
I then guided him to speak to the Math HOD in the school. My son came home that day and told me that the Maths HOD agreed that his solution was right, but nothing could be changed because \"it was too late\", the marks were already submitted to MOE. DS1 cried in school that day upon hearing this.
Since I knew the principal personally and was always impressed with the way he conducted himself and ran the school, I was sure he would right any wrong. Had it been another school principal, I would have just let the situation go. I knew any other principal would not have 'dared' to own the mistake. The principal did not disappoint me. He arranged for a meeting. Without even looking at DS1's solution, he told me that they were the experts and their decision should be final. It did not matter that my first degree was in Maths, and was teaching Statistics in a teritiary institution at that time. Their decision was final, I was told.
Not contented with the school's reply, I went on to seek four other independent opinions. I wrote to MOE, a website in States, the writer of the textbook the school was using, and a former Maths HOD in RGS. All them agreed that DS1's solution was correct. I then wrote to inform the school. The school was not interested in any other replies except MOE's. You can find DS1's answer to the question and MOE's reply at the end of this post.
I could not understand why ALL the teachers could not understand his working and solution, when it was crystal clear to me that his solution was correct. Perhaps it was because he had no tuition and did not know a standard answer. I therefore called up a good friend whose son was in the same class. She forwarded her son's answer to me. Which can be found at the end of this post as well. To my amazement, his answer was not exactly correct but he was given the full credit for this question (can you spot the error?).
The principal was fuming mad when I pointed out the marking errors to him, I believe he thought I was all out to look for an error. I wasn't, that was the only other student's paper I looked at, and it happened that there was a marking error. The school then decided that no one could decide if my son's answer was right except a professor from NIE, whose name was never revealed to me. The next time I asked, the Vice-Principal told me that professor said it was wrong because there could never be a fraction of two ratios. (But that wasn't a fraction; he drew a line across his answer). I did not bother to argue anymore, not because I agreed, but because I saw no point in pursuing this matter further. The school was more interested at protecting its position with MOE than ensuring a child was given due credit for his work. Bottomline: My son's answer was correct and he was not given a single mark because teachers could not comprehend his steps. The school admitted to the two other marking errors, but conveniently left his marks unchanged. The marking error on his friend's paper was never corrected as well. The records at MOE was therefore left in tact.
After the whole incident, my son approached me for a favour. He told me never to meddle with his work again. He told me he could fend for himself and this whole episode only made him unpopular among his teachers. (He was a very popular student.) I agreed.
Having looked at the 'model' answer, I finally understood what this education system wanted. They did not want creativity, they did not want a short method or an alternative method. They wanted a typical way of solving a question, an easy way for teachers to award marks. I then told my son to stop spending time to think up clever and innovative problem solving methods for standard questions and use tried and tested methods teachers are familiar with to solve. I also spent two weeks teaching him a few standard tricks I knew would help him solve all problems at PSLE level. That's about all the coaching he needed for PSLE Maths.
The next year, I met the principal again during the school's sport carnival. My son was participating in the competition. He won six gold medals at the meet. For each, he went forward to receive the medal. Every single time he was there to collect the medal, the crowd would clap or cheer. The principal would either be touching his nose, rubbing his eyes, or looking elsewhere. He made it a point not to clap even once in the six times my son went up to get his medals. I had forgotten the whole incident. He had not.
During the P6 prelims, DS1 scored 99.5% for his prelims exam. The only student out of two schools (including GEPers) who scored full marks (rounded up) in the cohort. It was a difficult paper. I went on and taught a few more students the same tricks. All those I taught (free) including my children, obtained A* for PSLE. It was not thinking skills, creativity or problem solving skills the markers wanted. They wanted to have a way to award marks. I found a methodology! I helped a few students scored well for PSLE Maths and got many thank you notes from their parents, but I also killed their creativity along the way.
The principal was promoted and became a secondary school principal in 2008.
Here's the question and how my son answered it:
QUESTION:
1 kg of pears cost as much as 1.5 kg of apples. Mother spent $18 on 2 kg of pears and 4.5 kg of apples. What is the cost of 1 kg of apples?
DS1's ANSWER:
Pears : Apples
3:2
----------------------
6: 9
[$18 (15 parts)]
Cost of 9 parts -> 18/15 x 9 = $10.80
Cost of 2 parts -> $10.80 x 2/9 = $2.40
Cost of 1 kg of apples is $2.40
RESPONSE from MOE:
The solution is correct.
You may want to clarify with the person who said that the answer was wrong to find out more. Regards,
Mdm TSH Curriculum Planning Officer/Mathematics
Curriculum Planning & Development Division § Ministry of Education,
Singapore § Tel +65 6 879 6599
http://www.moe.gov.sg/
DS1's classmate's ANSWER:
1 unit -> 1 kg pear + 1.5 apples
2 units + 1.5 kg apples ($18) -> 2 kg pears + 4.5 kg apples
2 units -> 2 kg pear -> 3 Kg apple (the marker put a tick here)
$18 - 1.5 kg =
1.5 kg apples -> $18 / 5 = 3.60
0.5 kg apples -> 3.60 / 3 = 1.20
1 kg apples -> 1.20 x 2 = $2.40
1 kg of apples cost $2.40. (another tick here)
:hugs: to you.
In your case, it is the human element (the relevant teachers + the principal) in the system who have failed. I wonder what can MOE do to prevent such things from happening? -
2ppaamm:
Hi 2ppaamm,
This is new to me. Unitary method. Perhaps because I have no more kids in upper primary. Do all schools teach that or only tuition centers? Also, how would a kid who has never been taught a unitary method know how to present his answers in a logical way using this method, what if he derived this method by himself and was not taught, how would he know how to present it logically?NickleBee Tutors:
anyway your son's method is known as the \"unitary\" method and its been taught by schools teachers in MOE schools for years. There's nothing new or innovative/unconventional about it. My students use it frequently and they have no problems with their teachers regarding usage of such a method. In fact most schools teach the Unitary Method alongside Models and whats not nowadays!)
Yours
Zhou Shicai
NickleBee Tutors
How come I can understand his working and not the teachers?
How lucky must a student be to be able to guess the correct answer like this?
How blind the invigilator must be to allow a student to copy and not catch him?
Even if it were to be guess and check, surely the student must be marked correct?
Actually, your answers and explanations are not new to me. I have been a mother for too long and listened to this many times. I think you have explained yourself very well, and I agree with your point. But I just cannot agree there's just ONE way of doing things. That ONE way is, show your working step by step so I can understand. Correct means correct lah.
One more thing. Not everyone thinks sequentially.
To answer your question, yes, the unitary method is taught in both tuition centres, and a large number of MOE Primary schools (e.g Catholic High, RGS, Tao Nan, Nanyang Pri, Temasek Pri. and Sengkang Pri. just to name a few. ) These are amongst some of the schools that i have students from so there may be more schools teaching such techniques. Its nothing more than thinking in terms of units instead of actually drawing the models out. So you can consider it an abstract varient of the model method which is itself a visual form of algebra. Which if you think about it, its almost as if the kids are using algebra but imagining little \"lego blocks\" as a variable instead of \"x\" or \"y\".
I am sure presentation of answers (for any subject) in exams are taught in school and its not asking too much of a child to write labels or short explanations in this workings to ensure that the teacher knows exactly what he is trying to show. That way, there is no uncertainty and he'll get the maximum marks of the effort put in. I'm not sure about your son, but students usually love to do short cuts/skip steps or fail to write proper statements not because they don't know how to but its usually due to sheer laziness and unwillingness to do any more work other than the bare minimum.
Not to worry, i do understand your child's workings just fine. But in order to do so, i had to make certain assumptions of his workings in order to derive his thought process. Honestly, i think his working's fine (just that the exposition of his logic path could be improved on). But from MOE's POV, it did not allow the teacher to be satisfied that he could understand the question fully and apply the necessary concepts to it and so no marks were given.
And yes, you're right, not all children are sequential thinkers. Some kids are visual-spatial learners and i do vary my teaching approach as my belief is that every kid is different in how they absorb information. In fact i teach differently for different kids and so as long at the child understand the concepts i am trying to bring across, i'm happy!
I personally am a very visual based person (i like to think of mathematics/science as a cloud of data swirling around in a never ending origami of mental boxes from which i unfold and pluck data as and when i need) as are a large number of my former GEP classmates. But when it comes to exams, i realised early on that if you want the marks, i had to learn to present my data in a sequential and logical manner as i understood even then that there is no way the teacher is going to understand my workings and give me the marks if i just randomly dump my assorted mental calculations and whats not onto the paper! It was honestly a piece of cake to present my working neatly and tidly. Its a bit like writing a composition neatly with proper paragraphing rather than handing up a dog eared untidy version. Granted it may take more time than if i had done the question mentally, but how else was the teacher going to give me the marks? I like to joke with my students that they should leave their handphone number on their paper so that if the marker is unsure about how they got the question, the marker can call them up! I then tell them that since its obviously unfeasible, then they jolly well make sure that their workings leave no room for doubt. And i do not care what weird method you use as long as you are able to present it to the marker such that it would not require a leap of faith to understand it.
For my students, their parents have entrusted the responsibility of ensuring their child gets the marks. So when i teach concepts and problem solving skills, i am pretty flexible in my teachings, as long as the child understands fully. However i am stricter when i comes to presentation of workings in paper 2. I do not demand that they conform to a standard format (that would be impractical) but i ask that they explain their thought process back to be using their own workings and they would then realise that if their workings are sequential and comes with proper labelling, its so much easier to explain it. They would then link it to how the markers are looking for their thought process which a properly presented working would give. Its also a great confidence booster exercise and they have less trouble even when faced with tough questions in future.
Anyway i was wondering if you would feel that its practical to just mark according to final answers and not give method marks. How would MOE or any school in the world then determine if their students actually understand the concepts taught during the lessons and did not memorize techniques blindly without understanding how to apply them properly. Also i would think that no parent would want to give up on method marks as most if not all students would have been thankful for a few method marks which they received for questions where a careless mistake had marred an otherwise perfect solution.
Yours
Zhou Shicai
NickleBee Tutors -
I wanted to highlight something about the post I wrote about my son's old maths problem. The main concern was not whether our children can have different solutions, MOE already confirmed my son's SOLUTION (not answer) was correct. Rather, these were the main concerns:
1. That educators should worry more about their KPI's (not willing to change the marks even though MOE already confirmed the SOLUTION - not answer was correct). The principal did not want to change the records at MOE. Why? Do you realize the principal was scheduled for a promotion, and he knew that. So it was not the answer that was wrong, because he admitted to 2 other errors as well, two in my son's paper and one in the other boy's paper. Nothing was changed. There is something wrong with the way we measure our educators.
2. Educators do not respect parents' views, and no matter how educated or uneducated, they 'talk down' and assume we as parents must take all kinds of sh*t from them. Why? We are at the weaker bargaining position. Our children are in their hands. It was unfortunate they met someone like me, who was trying to show my son that right is right in principle. So they hated me for my guts and for writing to so many folks. They were all the more determined to prove me wrong.
3. That teachers can make mistakes in their marking, when they cannot understand the student's working, and for such a simple question, so many teachers missed it.
4. There is a power off-balance in our schools today. Teachers are like gods and they dictate. My son says that in schools, teachers are NEVER wrong, even if they are wrong, they will try to go around it rather than admit their mistakes. At home, we teach our children that adults are never always right, but they must be respected even when they are wrong. Schools have taught our children that we should always be right to be respected or successful. WRONG. We should teach our children to respect an older person even if they are wrong or not as intelligent.
It was fun having this discussion on the Math question anyway. But DS is already so big, and is already in his senior year in college. He will be off to his post grad next year. He had already forgotten that particular math question. I just happen to have it still in my database. Using this case to hopefully put across some points in the petition. There need to be a change in the way our teachers teach. Our kids are getting smarter. Heard of the Flynn effect? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect If they couldn't handle my son, how could they ever handle the future generation? Our education system has to change and educators have to learn to look at things differently. They need to teach and not assign the teaching to another institution or to the shadow education system. -
Chenonceau:
Chen, I'm not sure if MOE read this, but I did. I have similar concerns as well. I'm pretty sure quite a lot of money was poured into such research, but I do not know why they were never ever shared.2ppaamm:
Or it is to ask for changes in these areas only? Perhaps we can lobby for a committee or something of parents who form as a consultation/feedback panel for the ministry. That would be a good outcome too.
The petition is a match stick to light a discussion. Once it has achieved its purpose it should be reduced to nothingness. The discussion can and should range far and beyond the ideas in the petition. The ideas in the petition should also be scrutinised.
I dunno about consultation/feedback panel... I think Ministry should garner views from as many parents as possible. A panel is still limited in its input... especially if permanent (groupthink is still possible). Besides, who would wanna be in that panel? It's more work and time investment ya know.
MOE should use NVIVO software to analyze themes from this thread. It's a software that supports an analytical technique (called grounded theory - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grounded_theory) designed for textual data (as opposed to numbers data). MOE should conduct interviews with parents and surface themes and concerns using NVIVO too. MOE should talk to children.
There could be scope to run IQ tests amongst NORMAL STREAM children to see if we have many closet 120 IQ kids there. If there are many, then our system is wasting talent. There is scope to survey children in the top 2 classes and bottom 2 classes of every school, run \"structural equation models\" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_equation_modeling) using LISREL or AMOS... to ascertain the part to which their academic success is due to tutors, to IQ, to teachers etc...
From a Industrial Organizational Psychologist's view point, there are so many ways to collect data, run the numbers, crunch the text to determine the terrain. We need to know the terrain well before anything can be done. All I want is a review - a study. I do not doubt that our government has access to researchers and resources able and willing to do the work.
As a social scientist, views remain views unless backed by data. When you can argue as convincingly as I can, then you know that you had better be careful not to argue so convincingly that reality is distorted by clever arguments. There are ways and means to test the validity of views. We have THREE research universities, each with a social science department. We do have the expertise to test these views and make sure which is correct BEFORE we do anything. I think we should focus on gathering high quality data, and study it carefully before we proceed. The study should be done with the highest standards of scholarship to ensure impartiality and objectivity.
Without data, views remain views... and if the wrong views are implemented because someone was convincing, then a nation's children pays the price. I do think that the fellow who proposed to halve the Mother Tongue weightage forgot to gather data... he/she only argued convincingly.
Nope... I doubt a panel is sufficient to represent the terrain sufficiently well. There are some truths that need to first be established.
- Is it true that we have too many children of high IQ in normal stream?
- Is it true that without tutors, children cannot pass?
- Is it true that the greater predictor of academic success today is no longer child ability but access to tutors?
There are social science methods that can answer these questions, and they should be answered with the highest standards of research rigour because our children are important.
Ehhhh... I write all this goobledy gook in the hope that MOE reads hor... there are experts in MOE who understand goobledy gook. I hope!!
I also agree that there should be a feedback loop to the ministry from parents and students, and I'm quite sure this does not exist.
There are 3 research universities with social sciences, but only one that focuses on education. NTU/NIE. I believe most of the PhDs or researchers there are ex-MOE folks. There is at least one or two who specialize in special needs and giftedness. I do not know what they do specifically. I think they are more concerned with training and putting more teachers and allied educators in schools.
Isn't it funny, it is like a leaking cup that never fills. You keep filling it with teachers, and losing teachers to the tuition industry. Surely the ministry is interested to know why teachers would rather teach in the shadow education system? How should they be absorbed?
Too many questions and I agree that your petition is just a starting point. If it sparks a good platform for a serious conversation or even research support, I'd be happy to chip in.
Great job so far! -
I really hope that the outcome of this petition will lead to committee or discussion session with the MP and panel of MOE educator. I believe this will provide a sound feedback and sharing debates. If it is true, pls count me in.
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2ppaamm:
Chen, I'm not sure if MOE read this, but I did. I have similar concerns as well. I'm pretty sure quite a lot of money was poured into such research, but I do not know why they were never ever shared.Chenonceau:
[quote=\"2ppaamm\"]Or it is to ask for changes in these areas only? Perhaps we can lobby for a committee or something of parents who form as a consultation/feedback panel for the ministry. That would be a good outcome too.
I dunno about consultation/feedback panel... I think Ministry should garner views from as many parents as possible. A panel is still limited in its input... especially if permanent (groupthink is still possible). Besides, who would wanna be in that panel? It's more work and time investment ya know.
MOE should use NVIVO software to analyze themes from this thread. It's a software that supports an analytical technique (called grounded theory - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grounded_theory) designed for textual data (as opposed to numbers data). MOE should conduct interviews with parents and surface themes and concerns using NVIVO too. MOE should talk to children.
- Is it true that we have too many children of high IQ in normal stream?
- Is it true that without tutors, children cannot pass?
- Is it true that the greater predictor of academic success today is no longer child ability but access to tutors?
There are social science methods that can answer these questions, and they should be answered with the highest standards of research rigour because our children are important.
Ehhhh... I write all this goobledy gook in the hope that MOE reads hor... there are experts in MOE who understand goobledy gook. I hope!!
I also agree that there should be a feedback loop to the ministry from parents and students, and I'm quite sure this does not exist.
Great job so far![/quote]Hi Chenonceau & 2ppaamm,
Wonderful posts, thanks!
Regarding feedback to MOE, it is in today's ST \"Have views on education? Tell new minister\", refer link below.
http://www.straitstimes.com/GeneralElection/News/Story/STIStory_672443.html
Unfortunately there is no specific post in our new Education Minister facebook that is asking for feedback, but you can choose to \"comment\" under any of his posts. The following link seems to garner alot of feedback:-
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/hengsweekeat/posts/205283626176837
From my quick look, there are some constructive suggestions and Mr Heng actually added his comments too, so it means he (or his administrator) is monitoring his facebook. I suppose there would be lots of comments going in since it's mentioned in Straits Times
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2ppaamm:
Hi 2ppaamm,I wanted to highlight something about the post I wrote about my son's old maths problem. The main concern was not whether our children can have different solutions, MOE already confirmed my son's SOLUTION (not answer) was correct. Rather, these were the main concerns:
1. That educators should worry more about their KPI's (not willing to change the marks even though MOE already confirmed the SOLUTION - not answer was correct). The principal did not want to change the records at MOE. Why? Do you realize the principal was scheduled for a promotion, and he knew that. So it was not the answer that was wrong, because he admitted to 2 other errors as well, two in my son's paper and one in the other boy's paper. Nothing was changed. There is something wrong with the way we measure our educators.
2. Educators do not respect parents' views, and no matter how educated or uneducated, they 'talk down' and assume we as parents must take all kinds of sh*t from them. Why? We are at the weaker bargaining position. Our children are in their hands. It was unfortunate they met someone like me, who was trying to show my son that right is right in principle. So they hated me for my guts and for writing to so many folks. They were all the more determined to prove me wrong.
3. That teachers can make mistakes in their marking, when they cannot understand the student's working, and for such a simple question, so many teachers missed it.
4. There is a power off-balance in our schools today. Teachers are like gods and they dictate. My son says that in schools, teachers are NEVER wrong, even if they are wrong, they will try to go around it rather than admit their mistakes. At home, we teach our children that adults are never always right, but they must be respected even when they are wrong. Schools have taught our children that we should always be right to be respected or successful. WRONG. We should teach our children to respect an older person even if they are wrong or not as intelligent.
It was fun having this discussion on the Math question anyway. But DS is already so big, and is already in his senior year in college. He will be off to his post grad next year. He had already forgotten that particular math question. I just happen to have it still in my database. Using this case to hopefully put across some points in the petition. There need to be a change in the way our teachers teach. Our kids are getting smarter. Heard of the Flynn effect? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect If they couldn't handle my son, how could they ever handle the future generation? Our education system has to change and educators have to learn to look at things differently. They need to teach and not assign the teaching to another institution or to the shadow education system.
I think the letter that MOE gave (from the previous post) mentioned that the \"solution\" your son gave was correct following which it asked you to clarify with the marker who said that the \"answer\" was wrong. I think its ambiguous at best whether MOE was referring to the final answer or the actual workings as it used both the word \"answer\" and \"solution\" in the same sentence. From a strictly literal standpoint, the statement from MOE has not clarified anything.
Anyway you're right in that its all the past through i found the solutions proposed by your son and his classmates to be rather interesting as an academic exercise.
As a member of the \"shadow education industry\" as you put it, i am deep in with the kids as they go through the education system and i always find it strange that parents attribute to MOE teachers more powers than they actually have! My fiancée (who's a JC teacher and no she has no time to give tuition) and some of my friends who are MOE teachers are literally knee deep in paperwork, assorted committees and CCA obligations, not to mention having to match rising education standards in the national exams, increased disciplinary issues and pressure from parents who expect them to be superheros. And i have not even gone into stress and expectations piled onto teachers by the HODs, Principals and of course the policy makers up in the ivory tower that is MOE. So to think that you believe teachers to be all powerful god-like beings who have a hand in determining your child's fate, you're dead wrong. Teachers have superiors to answer to who in turn have their own bosses (all the way to the minister himself). So teachers are essentially mute instruments by which the state educates a future workforce which will quietly toil away at ensuring a continued GDP expansionary policy. If you have quibbles with teachers, take it out on their superiors and not them. They are just following orders as issued from up above. With the pressure from parents, who expect the sky, and the the assorted stuff they face in school, well i'm not surprised that many burn out and leave after the bond.
Ah! The much debated Flynn effect. To give some background, i was selected to join the GEP test back in Pri 3 which placed me in the top 0.5% of the population (at that time, in 1993, the GEP took in only 180 to 200 pupils rather than the 400 plus now). Assorted tests including the UNSW International Maths and Science exams, American Maths Competition, SMO Maths Olympaid and SAT I & II just re-affirmed that i was within the 99th percentile of my cohort consistently. So to say i mixed with the best and brightest of my cohort would be an understatement. And here i am back teaching what is considered the best and brightest of Singapore's future. If the education system during my time could handle my GEP classmates (and what a handful we were), I would think the re-vamped education system with its emphasis on celebrating diversity of talents and cultivating varied interests would be so much more holistic in providing for the future generation's education needs. I really envy my students i am teaching!
Allow me to give my views on the current state of education. I think students nowadays are given a much more stimulating education environment as compared to my time. I would have loved to join NUS High if i had a chance (I was incredibly bored with the mundane stuff i was forced to learn in RI GEP). Too bad i went through what would be remembered now as they dying phase of the pre-IP education system. Its quite sad really. Also, if would remember the days when streaming was done for Primary 4 children and what a useless and harmful piece of policy that was (thankfully GEP students were exempt). Students nowadays face their first national exam when they are 12 and that favours the late bloomers who start shining in Pri 5. Quite an improvement i would think.
However, rather than observe a higher level of intelligence as expected from the Flynn effect, what i noticed is that children, with all the educational help they are getting (from schools, education centres, tutors, enrichment classes, books, education programmes etc), are much more well grounded in test taking techniques and sprouting random pieces of information. However what i did not notice in most students is the ability to critically analyse information (and they have so much at their fingertips!) and figure out how to apply them. Also, the tenacity at solving problems (whether in exams or life in general) and the ability to apply techniques and concepts to new conditions is generally lacking. Also, there seems to be a much higher parental expectations of their children. Sometimes it gets a bit extreme and i have heard and borne witness to enough cases to wonder sometimes whether the problems with the education system is caused by the education policies themselves or is it due to the rising expectations and increased demands of parents who expect every child to be in the GEP, Olympaid medalist etc.
But still, although the education system can and must be improved, i think we are heading in the right direction.
Overall quite an interesting conversation which threw up new perspectives and i thank you for your time.
Yours
Zhou Shicai
NickleBee Tutors
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