Petition to Review the Singapore Education System
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PiggyLalala:
buds:
[quote=\"ksi\"]I see the petition concern is a valid one and I would like MOE to study the issue where the root issues are. We need to promote inclusion in our society instead of keep filtering people out.
Inclusion. Yes. :hi5:
If seen in another perspective, inclusion can also mean to include every child
and not filter out those who under-performs or who don't perform which cud
be due to a variety of reasons. To accept every child with what they can if it
had been their best-est of efforts. Not being academically inclined not
necessarily goes to say they wud be failures in life.ksi:
Really? It isn't? :scratchhead:When parents shared their children's high score but could not hit max score, it is not necessary about kiasuism.
:siam:ksi:
Catch no ball here :skeptical:.If the unfairness is due to difference between tuition n no tuition, the system is wrong. If the difference is due to one can apply n one cannot apply what they hv learnt, then the noise is kiasuism.
ksi:
Agree.. :salute:We cannot try to sum up everything with English words and draw a conclusion.
ksi:
Agree.. if time permits, i might see something by the time chubs due for PSLE.Conduct a proper quantitative n qualitative study to draw the proper conclusion.
Or perhaps no PSLE by then.. :rubhands:ksi:
Yes WE LIKE! :celebrate: And i definitely appreciate his sharings.While we like to hv balanced view in a discussion, it would not be fair to tell parents to be realistic, lower expectation n accept the system.
Likewise too, it wud not be fair either to tell parents to be unrealistic.
To push boundaries where their child just cannot go. I have seen it for
myself.. and the children truly suffer. Wud not be fair to keep having high
expectations when the child is suffering thru' foundation aspects as it is.. and
not to accept the system? But then again, how not to? :scratchhead: This part
of the discussion will see no end IMO but i would love to read other balanced
sharings for sure. I try not to put down perspectives of others even though i
have my own in check. It is just nice to hear from all layers of community..
that's all. :grphug:
I am one who does not have low expectations. I have no expectations.
DDs try to work with the system or around the system.. :evil: and so i
support them by trying to understand the system myself and root for
them up to where they can... whilst observing how collective thinking
can indeed help generate change to what is seen as the race.. hence i
am still reading on to hear as many voices if not all voices from the
ground and consider if i really am gonna sign on that dotted line of
the petition.
Not that i don't think it is a good initiative.. a start.. but it's just that
i do think the system has tweaked a bit cos the ministry did hear us
about the initial cry about the stress that at P1 and 2s they hafta sit
for CA1, CA2, SA1, SA2 and all the mthly topical tests.. so they chucked
exams, put in place a supposedly more holistic learning environment thru
teach less learn more.. parents still unhappy.. So, how many times is changing
a system healthy in this case.. cos we'd then be having to adapt to yet
another system which we may not necessarily know will work.
In the industry that requires the human touch, it is the individual that makes
the difference... it is that many people that'd make the team.. the combined
effort. So as how to make it work for now, is to at least allow for some hovering
from say Principals or perhaps even education officers to monitor how the
current system in place is running and if it's not running, why and troubleshoot
the areas and the people involved. :evil:
Going back to the thread topic, as for the bell curves come PSLE grading,
i just wish that they would just state an A for an A. Chuck T-score.
As for testing of questions out of the syllabus, the school(s) have informed
parents that there will be questions (a handful like 3 - 5) in exam papers tt
are meant for streaming creme of the crop, yes.. and so far in our case, they
are in the syllabus.. still within what's covered & it is intentionally set to
challenge eyes and minds, yes.. but that's about it. But then again, my
observations are based only on humble neighbourhood schools only.:oops:
Perhaps i'm just a simpleton & try to live life within means and for my children
to work to their max potential and abilities. If they can soar ... well go fly as
far as they can, if not we can still fly kite here.. with whatever kites that are
still available for us.
:goodpost:[/quote]
Like this one. Agreed, just give their best in whatever the situation and circumstances. -
Today, just out of curiosity and since the bunch of K2s at my centre were getting a bit restless, I threw them some math problems that you will see in primary schools.
Things like * + * = 2 so what is *. They enthusiastically went to work and surprisingly, even without being shown how to do, a few of them managed to solve a series of such sums. The rest, after explaining, completing the rest of the sums was no biggie.
So I went a step further and gave then the dreaded chicken and cow legs problem. And again the few who were able to solve the 1st type of sums were able to figure out how to solve this question after some trial and errors. As for the rest of the class, after explaining, a few of them got it, 2 or 3 still catch no ball. Haha.
Thereafter, the kids pestered me for more of such problems to try out. Love their enthusiasm.
But no, don’t worry, I am not going to add this as part of their curriculum though some of my parents will be ecstatic if I do.
MOE’s preschool curriculum for math recommends that we need not cover beyond 20, they would prefer that we do not start teaching HYPY and also not give spelling and tingxie.
Parents however, start asking us when are we teaching HYPY, why cannot start at N2, why for math we cover only up to 20, their kids already know how to count up to the hundreds, what about multiplication and bodmas, why such simple tingxie and spelling for the kids, what about dictation, and when are we going to teach creative writing? The best question, ‘what am I sending my kids to your school for if you are not teaching them anything new?’
I believe to a certain extent, we parents have, in our bid to try to make life easier for our kids, created this viscious cycle. Pre-prep our kids, curriculum becomes too easy, some authority somewhere up the standard and again we pre-prep our kids accordingly and the cycle repeats.
DD’s tchr told me DD can be outstanding if pushed a little. She is now very comfortably cruising along. The prideful parent in me was thinking, wow, ‘outstanding’, that sounds so good. Then practicality took over, nope, not gonna stress her or myself over ‘outstanding’, ‘normal’ will do. -
PiggyLalala:
I do not think the situation is so bad. The PSLE paper usually only has a few challenging questions. It is still not so difficult to get an 'A' or 'B' grade in the PSLE. Students who got 'A' or 'B' grades for the most of the subjects can easily get into the Express stream in the sec sch.
As it is now, I am asking for statistics to understand the situation better. Based on school statistics, I know from a school that the Math cohort average for both P3 and P5 was 50+ this year. Is that bad enough to be of concern?
School is supposed to be simulating PSLE standard, no? Even if it is a \"no\", this is drastic.
-
Funz:
:goodpost:Today, just out of curiosity and since the bunch of K2s at my centre were getting a bit restless, I threw them some math problems that you will see in primary schools.
Things like * + * = 2 so what is *. They enthusiastically went to work and surprisingly, even without being shown how to do, a few of them managed to solve a series of such sums. The rest, after explaining, completing the rest of the sums was no biggie.
So I went a step further and gave then the dreaded chicken and cow legs problem. And again the few who were able to solve the 1st type of sums were able to figure out how to solve this question after some trial and errors. As for the rest of the class, after explaining, a few of them got it, 2 or 3 still catch no ball. Haha.
Thereafter, the kids pestered me for more of such problems to try out. Love their enthusiasm.
But no, don't worry, I am not going to add this as part of their curriculum though some of my parents will be ecstatic if I do.
MOE's preschool curriculum for math recommends that we need not cover beyond 20, they would prefer that we do not start teaching HYPY and also not give spelling and tingxie.
Parents however, start asking us when are we teaching HYPY, why cannot start at N2, why for math we cover only up to 20, their kids already know how to count up to the hundreds, what about multiplication and bodmas, why such simple tingxie and spelling for the kids, what about dictation, and when are we going to teach creative writing? The best question, 'what am I sending my kids to your school for if you are not teaching them anything new?'
I believe to a certain extent, we parents have, in our bid to try to make life easier for our kids, created this viscious cycle. Pre-prep our kids, curriculum becomes too easy, some authority somewhere up the standard and again we pre-prep our kids accordingly and the cycle repeats.
DD's tchr told me DD can be outstanding if pushed a little. She is now very comfortably cruising along. The prideful parent in me was thinking, wow, 'outstanding', that sounds so good. Then practicality took over, nope, not gonna stress her or myself over 'outstanding', 'normal' will do.
From my observation, young kids are generally fast learners.
My ds's kindergarten also practised (in 2010) \"need not cover beyond 20, no HYPY\" but they had weekly spelling and tingxie.
I agree with most of the things you said here
We did not \"pre-prep\" our ds, in fact we did not even know what his kindergarten covered (except during PTM twice a year) or when ds told us something about the school happenings. Except revising with my ds once or twice on his weekly spelling and tingxie, I did not even look at most of his materials (sometimes he would take out something to read, write or draw and I would spend some time on those things as family bonding).
But I just want to point out something, as you have said \"Thereafter, the kids pestered me for more of such problems to try out. Love their enthusiasm.\"
Every child is different and each likes different things. As parents, maybe we do not need to separate \"academics\" and \"non-academics\"?
I realised this earlier this year, when we were at Popular with my ds (we were buying stickers and sticker booklets for him), he saw a small Maths booklet at the cashier counter and after browsing it for a while, asked if he could buy it. I bought it. He started reading it on his own ... and sometimes would ask me questions on say, percentage, fractions... Recently, he has asked to buy higher level assessment books and started doing on his own. Oh, btw, he spends much more time (at least a few times more) on non-academics (sports, music, computer games, tv, playtime, draws, ... etc) than academics (incl. school homework). He likes to read too ... not sure if it is \"academics\" and \"non-academics\" .. but what is important to me is that he enjoys doing all these activities He has asked for Maths enrichment too (he said 3 hours a week) ... I do not mind sending my ds .. but his schedule is very tight with all those things I mentioned above and I would also want him to have enough rest time. But it made me realised enrichments (at least for my ds) should not just be sports, music, arts ... but something \"academics\" too ... my main criteria? --> He enjoys it.
-
ksi:
hi ksi, it's \"scary\" if it's 50+ for the cohort. But is this just a particular test? or SA1?PiggyLalala:
I do not think the situation is so bad. The PSLE paper usually only has a few challenging questions. It is still not so difficult to get an 'A' or 'B' grade in the PSLE. Students who got 'A' or 'B' grades for the most of the subjects can easily get into the Express stream in the sec sch.
As it is now, I am asking for statistics to understand the situation better. Based on school statistics, I know from a school that the Math cohort average for both P3 and P5 was 50+ this year. Is that bad enough to be of concern? School is supposed to be simulating PSLE standard, no? Even if it is a \"no\", this is drastic.
If most kids are attending enrichment/ tuition as we have been discussing here ... then do you understand why the average is so low? The school is setting a standard that even enrichments did not cover?
Is this \"common\" in Singapore? Or just a few schools in Singapore? If it's a few schools, then it's something to do with these schools than the entire education system. But without data, we will probably never find out how widespread this is. -
Edureach:
ksi:
Edureach, at this rate PSLE is heading there are children who do not even get to 'A' levels, it is called 'game over' for them after PSLE.
I see the petition concern is a valid one and I would like MOE to study the issue where the root issues are. We need to promote inclusion in our society instead of keep filtering people out. When parents shared their children's high score but could not hit max score, it is not necessary about kiasuism. If the unfairness is due to difference between tuition n no tuition, the system is wrong. If the difference is due to one can apply n one cannot apply what they hv learnt, then the noise is kiasuism. We cannot try to sum up everything with English words and draw a conclusion. Conduct a proper quantitative n qualitative study to draw the proper conclusion. While we like to hv balanced view in a discussion, it would not be fair to tell parents to be realistic, lower expectation n accept the system.
Understand your point of view and i also not against the objective of this petition. However, the points which i have raised are to highlight the importance of familly support and working together with your kids in an enviroment whereby the well-to-do families are seen to have the advantages thru expensive tuitions.
Totally agree, family support is definitely key in everything. And the next point about well-to-do families having the advantages, are we not petitioning for more reasonable exam so that having tuition is no longer an advantage and not having tuition is no longer a disadvantage? The difference is that you have chosen to accept the environment is such, we are petitioning to change the competitive landscape so not everyone has to suffer.
What i have outlined earlier were what i had done for my two kids. I had ignored all these noises myself and it didn't bother my family at all whereby other kids had gone ahead because of tuition.
Kudos to you. I admire your attitude but not everyone can do that :salute:
The existing system is in place where one learns and progress according to his aptitude and hardwork.
This is becoming more and more untrue hence the petition. It takes more than hardwork. Do you think the likes of Chenon and son do not work hard?
As mentioned earlier, even if a student failed to make it to jc, can always attend poly and who to stop these students from entering unis?
True, but that is a round-about way and need to spend one more year in poly and for poly kids to go to the uni, that is another super squeeze to get in.
One must not be too obessed with the top schools thinking that they are the most suitable vehicles to excel academically. So what my kids scored btw 250-260 and had to settle for the next best schools. My kids didn't loose anything and they can progress happily without all these hardcore tuitions.
True, the difference I can think of is the training and exposure in the top schools has some value. The kind of esteem and spirit built is different too. Once an ex-colleague had this dialogue with me where I told her there was no difference if one attended uni or not, as long as one worked hard at work. She told me, easy for me to say because I was a graduate but for her she could never make such statements. So it's the same going to good schools. Until today people never fail to remind me of my alma mater which they would love to be from and they said they could tell the difference of one being trained from there. Not my words.....but this is general sentiments. Can you change their mind? I have been unsuccessful unfortunately no matter how I deny that there is no difference. This is the reality, people endorsed the difference in training. So for those who want to pursue it, give them the choice even if it is hard. Those who do not want it, then do not force them to go through the same hardship.
The best part is they are attending schools without undue stress because i shall accept whatever results they produce as long as they are determined to do their best. Realistic mah!
Kudos to you again and your children. It takes matured kids to drive the \"whatever results\"
In any society, there exists a group with advantages since time memorial. As parents we recognise this but we can also choose to bring out the best from our kids with unconditional love and continue to motivate them. Their academic progress is totally independent of our love and understanding.
I totally subscribe to your parenting style but it takes all sorts to make parents, it is harder to transform people, that is probably another project MOE may embark on later.
Is up to each family how to raise their kids. For me, i shall embrace any system that is up and continues to ignore all the background noises.
You too have a choice!
Thanks, I have a choice and I am not affected by the exam system yet in terms of grades and not sure if it would ever affect me. For me, I am keen to participate in this when I see level average for Math exam for 2 cohorts is only 50+. It is scary albeit it has absolutely no impact on me in a personal way. I just feel sorry for children who work hard but get unequitable results. I saw children crying, not because they did not score 90+ but because they scored 50-70. Interestingly, a child I know whose dad is a teacher scored 50+ in 2 subjects, it tells me the exam is getting too tough even for teachers to cope with their own child. I am getting this statistics at the school level, so it may not be accurate, perhaps just some killer schools. The best is to get a national statistics on this to determine if the situation is indeed so bad? -
coast:
hi ksi, it's \"scary\" if it's 50+ for the cohort. But is this just a particular test? or SA1?ksi:
[quote=\"PiggyLalala\"]I do not think the situation is so bad. The PSLE paper usually only has a few challenging questions. It is still not so difficult to get an 'A' or 'B' grade in the PSLE. Students who got 'A' or 'B' grades for the most of the subjects can easily get into the Express stream in the sec sch.
As it is now, I am asking for statistics to understand the situation better. Based on school statistics, I know from a school that the Math cohort average for both P3 and P5 was 50+ this year. Is that bad enough to be of concern? School is supposed to be simulating PSLE standard, no? Even if it is a \"no\", this is drastic.
If most kids are attending enrichment/ tuition as we have been discussing here ... then do you understand why the average is so low? The school is setting a standard that even enrichments did not cover?
Is this \"common\" in Singapore? Or just a few schools in Singapore? If it's a few schools, then it's something to do with these schools than the entire education system. But without data, we will probably never find out how widespread this is.[/quote]It's SA1. I am not sure if it is common as I mentioned perhaps limited to a few killer schools. Whatever, it is worthwhile looking into the issues holistically and establish some truths. And who is the best to do this? MOE! kekeke
-
ksi:
It's SA1. I am not sure if it is common as I mentioned perhaps limited to a few killer schools. Whatever, it is worthwhile looking into the issues holistically and establish some truths. And who is the best to do this? MOE! kekeke
hi ksi, it's \"scary\" if it's 50+ for the cohort. But is this just a particular test? or SA1?coast:
[quote=\"ksi\"]
As it is now, I am asking for statistics to understand the situation better. Based on school statistics, I know from a school that the Math cohort average for both P3 and P5 was 50+ this year. Is that bad enough to be of concern? School is supposed to be simulating PSLE standard, no? Even if it is a \"no\", this is drastic.
If most kids are attending enrichment/ tuition as we have been discussing here ... then do you understand why the average is so low? The school is setting a standard that even enrichments did not cover?
Is this \"common\" in Singapore? Or just a few schools in Singapore? If it's a few schools, then it's something to do with these schools than the entire education system. But without data, we will probably never find out how widespread this is.[/quote]I am confused!
I read here that schools have to submit school results to MOE (and hence the post about principal refusing to change marks even for obvious errors). Also, aren't the teachers (perhaps HOD as well) KPIs that their students do well? So ...why would these schools want to set such difficult SA1 papers?
Perhaps only SA2 results are submitted to MOE? By having \"killer\" papers during tests and SA1 (assuming not submitted to MOE) ... parents will have no choice but to get tuition/ enrichment as they worry they will be \"killed\" during SA2? Is this why we are tuition nation?
If such results are not submitted to MOE, how do you think they will find out unless they place a \"spy\" in every school or set up a feedback channel (and we have read that feedback are \"ignored\" by MOE) ... so ... but well, let's be positive. Let's hope things will change with our transforming govt and new Education Minister! -
buds:
ksi:
I see the petition concern is a valid one and I would like MOE to study the issue where the root issues are. We need to promote inclusion in our society instead of keep filtering people out.
Inclusion. Yes. :hi5:
If seen in another perspective, inclusion can also mean to include every child
and not filter out those who under-performs or who don't perform which cud
be due to a variety of reasons. To accept every child with what they can if it
had been their best-est of efforts. Not being academically inclined not
necessarily goes to say they wud be failures in life.
Aiyo...buds...very hard to answer your posts...so many parts... For me, instead of trying so hard to do this inclusion/exclusion game, leave the decision to the parents, parents will understand what is inclusion for their kids.ksi:
Really? It isn't? :scratchhead:When parents shared their children's high score but could not hit max score, it is not necessary about kiasuism.
:siam:
I think you missed Chenon's post on the son's Math paper of 94.5 score and missed the 5-mark question because it was out of text, not taught. I was referring to that. I did not see it as kiasuism, do you? :scratchhead:ksi:
Catch no ball here :skeptical:.If the unfairness is due to difference between tuition n no tuition, the system is wrong. If the difference is due to one can apply n one cannot apply what they hv learnt, then the noise is kiasuism.
:offtopic: You only can catch your own balls :evil: ...oops! ok back to topic... Same case as above, it was a matter of tuition or no tuition for the 5-mark question, so was that fair? If it was taught in school but the child could not apply during the exam and parent still argued about it, then it would be kiasu mindset. In this case, it was testing out of text. It so happened that her son scored 94.5 here, how about the other 30+ kids in the class, if there were other questions they were not able to do carefully or completely, this 5-mark can potentially bring the total score to a poor grade.ksi:
Agree.. :salute:We cannot try to sum up everything with English words and draw a conclusion.
ksi:
Agree.. if time permits, i might see something by the time chubs due for PSLE.Conduct a proper quantitative n qualitative study to draw the proper conclusion.
Or perhaps no PSLE by then.. :rubhands:
haha...it would be named something else.
SSPE - Sec School Placement Exam.ksi:
Yes WE LIKE! :celebrate: And i definitely appreciate his sharings.While we like to hv balanced view in a discussion, it would not be fair to tell parents to be realistic, lower expectation n accept the system.
Nobody is not appreciating, just need to be fair.
Likewise too, it wud not be fair either to tell parents to be unrealistic.
I don't think anyone has the right to do this either, the idea is leave the choice to the parents.
To push boundaries where their child just cannot go. I have seen it for
myself.. and the children truly suffer. Wud not be fair to keep having high
expectations when the child is suffering thru' foundation aspects as it is.. and
not to accept the system? But then again, how not to? :scratchhead:
Seriously speaking, if a child is having foundation type of results, would a sound parent continue to pursue the track of flying so high? Teachers are available to be sound advisers and schools have counsellors who would be able to advise as well.
This part
of the discussion will see no end IMO but i would love to read other balanced
sharings for sure. I try not to put down perspectives of others even though i
have my own in check. It is just nice to hear from all layers of community..
that's all. :grphug:
Agree, no putting down of sharings, just pointing out it is not possible to tell parents to be realistic or unrealistic. In fact the proposal is to present statistics for better understanding of this problem. So far even I am not getting a quantitative feel at national level of how bad the issue is.
I am one who does not have low expectations. I have no expectations.
DDs try to work with the system or around the system.. :evil: and so i
support them by trying to understand the system myself and root for
them up to where they can... whilst observing how collective thinking
can indeed help generate change to what is seen as the race.. hence i
am still reading on to hear as many voices if not all voices from the
ground and consider if i really am gonna sign on that dotted line of
the petition.
I am signing for action of study to be done, none of us will have a real feel as our network is all different.
Not that i don't think it is a good initiative.. a start.. but it's just that
i do think the system has tweaked a bit cos the ministry did hear us
about the initial cry about the stress that at P1 and 2s they hafta sit
for CA1, CA2, SA1, SA2 and all the mthly topical tests.. so they chucked
exams, put in place a supposedly more holistic learning environment thru
teach less learn more.. parents still unhappy.. So, how many times is changing
a system healthy in this case.. cos we'd then be having to adapt to yet
another system which we may not necessarily know will work.
You are right buds! Perhaps nothing need to be done to change the system except to re-implement the current initiatives better ACROSS ALL SCHOOLS!!! It might just be an execution issue but the KPIs part certainly play a part too...so one of the thing is to look into school's KPIs.
In the industry that requires the human touch, it is the individual that makes
the difference... it is that many people that'd make the team.. the combined
effort. So as how to make it work for now, is to at least allow for some hovering
from say Principals or perhaps even education officers to monitor how the
current system in place is running and if it's not running, why and troubleshoot
the areas and the people involved. :evil:
Then the people must be trained better to standardise more uniformly for better quality control
Going back to the thread topic, as for the bell curves come PSLE grading,
i just wish that they would just state an A for an A. Chuck T-score.
Even doing this would be moving a mountain...they must find an alternative to solve the issue they are trying to solve with T-score.
As for testing of questions out of the syllabus, the school(s) have informed
parents that there will be questions (a handful like 3 - 5) in exam papers tt
are meant for streaming creme of the crop, yes.. and so far in our case, they
are in the syllabus.. still within what's covered & it is intentionally set to
challenge eyes and minds, yes.. but that's about it. But then again, my
observations are based only on humble neighbourhood schools only.:oops:
This is not stated for our case but it does not bother me, but probably bothers other parents. Also, is this stated for PSLE exams too? I seem to get the feeling that parents are always shocked by 2-3 tough questions in Math?
Perhaps i'm just a simpleton & try to live life within means and for my children
to work to their max potential and abilities. If they can soar ... well go fly as
far as they can, if not we can still fly kite here.. with whatever kites that are
still available for us.
You simpleton? :laugh: I don't think anyone would agree here, so full of ideas how to be simpleton? :evil: -
I queried a teacher during the Meet The Parent session, about the issue on questions that are "out of scope", ie. the students were not taught how to answer those questions.
Her reply was that there are certain questions in the exams that were designed to "stretch" the students. Her claim was that there are always ways to answer these questions based on what has been taught, it’s either that or one has to extrapolate the learnt concepts to handle these questions.
I guess this would be MOE’s answer as well. It’s all done in the name of "stretching".
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