新加坡人满口错误, 何时会改善？ 快了! 大家快加油, 面对挑战!

[empressplace]

There is a Beijing dialect 北京话, I believe. Learning that is more for cultural interest eg in the performance of 相声. In normal business exchange, that is not appropriate.


北京话，亦称北京方言，属于北京官话的京师片，流传于北京市区[1]。说话人带有明显的儿化尾音，有人把北京话的浓重口音称为“京片子”、“京腔”。现代标准汉语（普通话/国语/华语）规定以北京话发音为基础，尽管如此，北京方言和普通话有些许的区别。北京官话通常指的是上层知识分子的语言，严格来说，北京官话也并不等于普通话。北京话与普通话的关系，与伦敦方言与英语标准语的关系相类似。
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/%E5%8C%97%E4%BA%AC%E8%AF%9D

I am referring more to 现代标准汉语 which is derived from 北京话.

现代标准汉语是一种通行于中国大陆、香港、澳门、中华民国，以及包括新加坡、马来西亚等地华人社群在内的海外华人圈的语言，基于现代中国北方汉语的语法和北京话语音发展而成，[2]于20世纪初被采纳为中国的官方语言，当前在中华民国、中华人民共和国及新加坡共和国均为官方语言之一，也是东南亚及其他海外华人群体广泛采用的共通口语或书面语；且作为联合国六种官方工作语言之一，[3]成为国际人士学习汉语言的主要参照。其称呼与定义因地而异，在中华民国称为“国语”，中华人民共和国称为“普通话”，东南亚称为“华语”，而相对于非中文的语言又常被称为“中文”。

因地域的不同，“普通话”、“国语”与“华语”在语音与词汇上存在一些差别，可以说是不同的方言，尽管可理解为受到各地语言的影响，然而在正式的书写语法上相对统一。而在世界各地都出现了很多现代标准汉语的变体，例如在台湾的“国语”逐渐有别于普通话（融合福佬话及客家语腔调以及台湾本土文化用语；福佬话通称为台湾话，与中国的闽南语相近）；新马地区则有新马华语（受闽粤及马来语、英语影响）；而大陆地区则有更多变体，如四川普通话、南宁普通话、广式普通话等等，对比起北京话、台湾国语、新马华语尚可互通的语言，这些变体语言甚至是北方人也无法理解。
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/%E7%8F%BE%E4%BB%A3%E6%A8%99%E6%BA%96%E6%BC%A2%E8%AA%9E

So it appears we are speaking 新马华语 in Singapore. Among people who speak better Mandarin like students from SAP schools, the intonation and choice of words may be quite similar to 普通话。However, for less educated people or people who are not so strong in spoken Mandarin, the intonation may be closer to their true mother tongue, i.e., Chinese dialects, predominantly Hokkien in Singapore. Typically Singaporeans don't enunciate their zh, ch, sh very clearly and sound more like z, c, s. For example, 吃 is pronounced closer to ci1 instead of chi1.

One big problem with language development in Singapore is TV. There are quite a few TV personalities who make a living speaking rather imperfect Mandarin and they are supposed to be popular! I don't think children should be exposed to such programmes if they need to learn proper intonation.

[General99all]

Hi auntieM,

Your PRC SIL is managing it well… yah… tone A vs tone B.
But our problem is most local claimed that they only speak proper English only at work and to Ah mo, only Singlish to friends and relatives and colleagues which is Language A vs B. They ended up perfection broken English/Singlish and failed or struggle maintaining English. It didn’t make any sense to me because I couldn’t accept a child raise in most SG families that only gets in contact with English when turning up of interview and started her career… then what was in her 20 year of growing up… broken English/Singlish? What was influenced and what has the child been practicing or communicating with?

I personally felt that having different accent is not an issue. The issue is all the wrong grammar and phrases. It creates more errs when using grammar/ phrases from languages A into languages B. Eg. I said :“Everyone does” to the Americans/ Europeans… but there is huge number of Singaporean who said :”All Singapore also can speak English”…. Which many didn’t realized that this form of English is not in the language. They will challenge you and say:”Like that say also can/correct.” Because many (claims that they come from English speaking family) did not realize this all this form of English(they might have spoken and written over the past 10/ 20 yrs) is actually Singlish/broken English not proper English. Imagine you are seeing a huge population of Ah Mo speaking Mandarin and they used their English grammar in Mandarin…“哪里你要去?” We will not blame them because we thought their teachers(might be unprofessional) didn’t teach correctly… But this is not what happened here when people feels good to be creative. I do not appreciate spending $ and effort to send children to school to earn language standard which is inferior. I will not look good on any of us if we didn’t have our mother tongue nor English up to a more acceptable general standard. I would rather treat English as a foreign language and use it in its languages and the same courtesy to other languages… Japanese, Korean…. Each language is unique in its grammar and will interpret to a wrong meaning if misused.

In SG, we have dialects influence and many spoken Mandarin where translated from other dialects eg, Cantonese, Hokkien.
Eg. 我跟你讲话，你会不会听 hah？This is Hokkien spoken in Mandarin. I would say “妈妈说的话,你不听了?”
I felt that the “会不会听” is causing a little confusion because it could interpret into “could you understand” and also “will you heed the advice”.
I thought that the correct interpretation is saying that you are not obeying so I opt for “妈妈说的话,你不听了?” which I find this 100% fits the meaning and is simple and direct…. Straight.
锁匙is also Hokkien converted Mandarin. We said in Hokkien “Soh Xi”… till the extend that the hit rate for local to know that this is not proper Mandarin is very low.
Don not under estimate how creative Singaporean are… after –> Hokkien converted Mandarin, they could further convert to Singlish which they called that English.
Eg… “I am outside your door”…. Hence, there are people who always paused for a while (Brain CPU & Processor for e right sentence structure) before they speaks… like me . It is very hard to hear more proper English / Mandarin and will detotriate further. But more local likes it and do not see the need for more proper or improvement.
Everyday… we have more toddler following the wrong language path…. Environment created from home, to school, the public places.
Currently those local tertiary students hired to teach china kids English… many of these student tutors are teaching and explaining in broken English/Singlish and there is very little of English. These China kids might not know about it but we could spot it even on the first day of tuition.
It is easy to come by people saying :”我在地铁上面”in the MRT.
By the way, Local “吃先”,“走先“is converted from English back to Mandarin when it should be more direct from the original Mandarin of “先吃”,”先走”.
It is extremely hard for me to secure the mother tongue and English, hence I rather major these 2 languages then to touch 杀伤力强的broken English/Singlish Mandarin.

I wasn’t filling the correct right Chinese characters in my first passage which made many readers annoyed or even hard to swallow but I keep learning and did better. Apart from this area, I am very clear that I’ve overcome some killing grammar which many people who wrote better still having strong bond with…eg. I have drop the word “Got” and barely use it for the past 10 yrs… My kids don’t say “Got take”, “Also got same dress”… it will be “have”. I have also dropped “can! Can! Can” to “Sure. Will do” Same goes to “cannot take”, “cannot open” to “don’t take”, “don’t open” …. “You want some Milk?” to “Do you want some milk”… “You want to eat what go and call now” to “Go order/get your food/lunch/snacks”. Also always starts with “What, when, will, do, Are, Am,…” instead of the powerful “you”, “later”, “I also got ask”… etc which will turn the sentence structure out of the language.
Of course I am successfully in having my kids saying:” 妈(mā),明天我不用上学”… “这碗粥好烫”, “这天气好热”, “热水”, “热水葫”.

I hope people could understand that we have the ability to put our children onto the right track then to continue the wrong those errs. Remember… Since we started school 20… 30 years back… English and Mandarin was taught… not broken English/Mandarin or Singlish. I regretted for not building strong language foundation and shall pass it on to my kids… but many others who has the ability(educated parents) didn’t feel the need or wants to do it. That resulted even today… only a few souls or few toddler having the correct pronunciation calling their parents and 6 years old saying:”Later got go piano or not”.

Come to think about this when your child started childcare and there is only a few souls with correct pronunciation, grammar and phrases…. Is your child going to be doubtful in himself/herself? What is the impact and result?

[General99all]

Hi empressplace,

You are indeed some bright personnel out there…是英雄，重英雄
所谓…英雄所见略同!

It is so stupid that even to make the 侠(xiá) into the correct Prawn 虾 (Xiā), almost everyone is against me.

Yes… local raised… our mother tongue… English as first language… where are we in having the ability to make a living in broadcasting news… TV… many local TCS artists used wrong phrases when hosting entertainment shows…
I remembered Lee Guo Huang hosted a cooking show and said "Oo. 你是读 Engineer" to the contestant when he should change the word to "Engineering" if he is keeping it that form because "Engineer" is an occupation not proper to refer to Engineering course or students. Anyway he didn’t have the skill to say "Oo. 你是个工程系学生".

I dreamt of raising my children to manage well their languages so that even if they are not keen in studying, they are still good enough to own a career like broadcasting… Radio… Tvs… with talking skill. People talk everyday and why this is nothing new if you are speaking correctly 99% of your time.

[ying]

I do not understand it, what our own children call us, 马迷 or 把拔, is something extremely personal between the children and the parents leh … what is the issue? Did my children make the language experts worry by calling me 马迷 ? Like one member here said, dragging the last syllabus of 马迷 is very sweet and pleasing to my ears.


For one person to criticise the others, that person must have achieved an almost 无懈可击 level, if not, it is just a matter of "the pot calling the kettle black", and there will be no 说服力。

Sorry, JMHO, do not flame me.

[ying]

Quote: In English :\"The Mummy is coming after you!\", \"My Mummy/ Mommy is taking me to the zoo!\" Does any of these give u the term as \"mǎ mí\"? any chance? Unquote


I have a question - your sentence of “The Mummy is coming after you!” – is it correct? any chance?

Poor child, is his Mommy a Monster?

LOL. Sorry, I cannot resist it, but I just want to defend my children’s usage of \"mǎ mí\".

[puff]

ying:

I do not understand it, what our own children call us, 马迷 or 把拔, is something extremely personal between the children and the parents leh ... what is the issue? Did my children make the language experts worry by calling me 马迷 ? Like one member here said, dragging the last syllabus of 马迷 is very sweet and pleasing to my ears.


For one person to criticise the others, that person must have achieved an almost 无懈可击 level, if not, it is just a matter of \"the pot calling the kettle black\", and there will be no 说服力。

Sorry, JMHO, do not flame me.

:goodpost: :rahrah: :rahrah: :rahrah:

[lostlostmom]

can’t resist it anymore … is it 识英雄，重英雄 or 是英雄，重英雄


pls spare us of your good quality chinese if you can’t even get the right word.

The first passage seems like saying we can’t make it, as we use singlish and have bad mandrian. So if the author is really that good, i think the mistake is too much.

[ying]

Quote

Each time we go to the food court and library, how many sentences out of 10 we hear is having errs?”
Unquote

I also wonder, “how many sentences out of ten we read is (ahem!) having errs?” Whatever that means.

Quote
It is up to individual how much mixes they like or no mix… but do be clear when you tell people that you come from English/Mandarin speaking family, you better meet that standard else isn’t this inviting embarrassment for yourself and your family?\t
Unquote

This issue about inviting embarrassment for yourself and your family ….. you are referring to …..? Reminds me of an old wise saying: When you are pointing a finger at others, at the same time, you are pointing four fingers at yourself.

Thanks for the good intention in highlighting the society’s problem, but I reiterate, if one person wants to criticize the others, that person must be at an almost 无懈可击 level, if not it is just “the pot calling the kettle black”, no 说服力.

[empressplace]

My child says ma3 mi2 quite often too. I correct him whenever I can and he's getting it.


Reason? It's simply the correct way to say it. It's hard to decide what is OK to leave it as it is and what is not and once you are not vigilant, it's a slippery path.

Another reason is that if I am not happy with teachers who do not speak or pronounce words properly, I should not encourage wrong pronunciation at home.

Regarding good Chinese, we should bear it in mind that many Caucasians are learning standard Mandarin today. I have already come across some who speak perfectly intonated Mandarin. In the years to come, our children will come across Caucasians who speak better Mandarin than them if we are not careful. Now, if we are not as good in English as Caucasians, that is understandable. If we speak worse Mandarin than Caucasians, is that not embarrassing? Among Singaporeans, there is instant bonding when each speaks the same lingo (English or Chinese). Outside Singapore or among non-Singaporeans, I have yet to hear anyone praise our Singapore accent. In fact, sad to say, the opposite is true.

[General99all]

You see… isn’t this stressful… the society is overwhelmed with educated people didn’t recognize the different pronunciation…. Mummy–> regardless it’s referring to the Mother or the Egyptian preserved dead body–> is pronounced as Ma1 Mi3… it will not result the English pronunciation of a Mother to become Ma3 Mi2 nor the 4 terms of Han yu pin ying to become Ma3 Mi2 as well. Hope this is clear. Local children are conditioned to pronounced it as Ma3 Mi2… only a handful of educated parents realized this err. We are also suffering from huge opposition(in whatever that they believed in) whom keep throwing stones at us for trying to make things correct right… and correct right from the beginning. My objectives –> keep 2 major streams… Proper Spoken English with its correct pronunciation and Mandarin with its correct pronunciation of the 4 terms of Han yu pin ying, no Broken English/Singlish nor Mandarin. Now did you see how hard it is and exhausted to handle massive objections/challenges? My point is I wanted to follow the correct version of the educational material…parents who felt the same way… this is great for all to share what we are sure is correct…benefits from one another… When said "Ma3’, my child shall write "马" and when said "Ma1", my child shall write "妈", I didn’t see the value for creating confusion where my child is doubtful about the word and confirmed which "MA". I shall made it very clear. With "女" or not give totally a different terms in Han yu pin ying. Just as good as "Zūn Xià"… many of us asked the child to Squat down… but when I discovered it was wrong(found out during HP SMS that it didn’t exist at all)… found correct one as “Dūn Xià"…I updated myself right away… without another word. I am just sharing to help people who share the same hardship and views. There is no value to keep saying "Zūn Xià (尊下)” when you expect your child to do the correct action and write the correct word “Dūn Xià (蹲下)". Same goes for the way local stressed the second syllabus for Zhuō zi((桌子), yǐ zi(椅子)… and insisting the "Yi2" instead of the correct "Yi3".