SBS Transit, SMRT submit applications for fare adjustment
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1. fare keeps rising and we dont enjoy our ride
Singapore population is rising. COE getting higher. Obviously the ridership will be higher leading to more packed buses!!! Buses cant be purchased within a short period of time. SMRT has been evaluating the MAN NL323F from beginning of 2011 when a demonstrator unit was put on trial on service 961. What happens if they just buy any random bus, only to find out that it either
1) cant keep up with schedule (timesheet)
2) underperformance
3) crappy bodywork (what happened to SBS's Scania buses)
4) Hard to maintain
5) etc.
2. cant get into buses and trains
the NSEWL is an old system, built in 1987. It uses 1987 signalling, 1987 technology etc. How are you going to find contractors that are willing to design and build trains with the latest technology yet are able to run on these tracks? Trains are all custom built. There is no model, like say, Alstom Metropolis Ver1, Alstom Metropolis Ver2 etc. SMRT has announced an improvement to the signal system which will start in 2011 (and complete in 2017 for the NSL and 2019 for EWL). This will allow the system to handle frequencies of 100 seconds without stop-start journeys compared with the current frequency of 120 seconds. That is WHY, because when we try to run trains with frequencies SHORTER THAN 120 SECONDS, WE HAVE STOP START JOURNEYS!! THIS IS BECAUSE THE SIGNAL SYSTEM IS BEING PUSHED TO ITS LIMITS. EVERY SINGLE SIGNAL WILL BE RED OR YELLOW, CAUSING TRAINS TO EITHER STOP OR SLOW DOWN. AND YET PEOPLE COMPLAIN!!!! Then some even more ridiculous people want MANUAL overrides!!! The signal system on the NSWEL is ALREADY so COMPLEX and you are going to have people MANUALLY operate EVERY SINGLE SIGNAL on the line? How much manpower will that take? Are you willing to pay every single one of them? This is why you cant just keep deploying more and more trains on the line! Eventually the signal system wont be able to handle the load, and will either overheat, or the trains become so slow that i can walk and be faster. The trains are also driven in ATO (Automatic Train Operation) most of the time. In bad weather only then are they driven in CM (Coded Manual). CM mode is slower than ATO because the Train Operator has to use his eye power to operate the train, obviously leading to slower trains. And the train operators are not trained to smoothly stop the train. If you have taken the train on the rainy day, you will notice that it is not one smooth brake down to the station. Firstly this is because the train operators need to enter the station slowly to minimize accidents. Secondly braking force is measured in notches and controlled with a lever, not pedals, so you can only use preset amounts of force. Now are you willing to manually run the system?
Also of late I've been noticing alot of complaints about the Bt Panjang LRT. The technology on the BPLRT is 40 years old. The Bombardier CX-100 trains first debuted in an US airport in 1971. Bombardier is a Canadian company. why would you expect its trains to be able to run flawlessly in sunny Singapore? The trains are not even designed for Singapore's climate. So the fault should go to the LTA for awarding the contract to the company. SMRT is already doing its best to maintain the trains' condition. You cannot add new trains because Bombardier would have stopped producing the model and spare parts. Besides, all the trains are already fixed to the line on the third rail. How are you gonna put the train in? Rebuilding teh whole LRT system will take at least 4 years and this will even be impossible due to its proximity to HDB flats. Now anyone still complaining about the LRT system?
And for the ugly commuters, is that even SMRT's problem? It all boils down to the generally ungracious Singapore commuters. Then you blame SMRT for that? It's like blaming nature for the climate change when we humans are causing it.
Long waiting time... bus runtimes are long, traffic conditions are unpredictable. Plus many bus interchanges are basically surrounded by traffic junctions and traffic jams leading to the buses being late.. in fact only yeserday SMRT added one more trip on TQ shift (Three quarters of the day) for service 922 increasing its frequency by 10 minutes.
Limlim > Like 3Boys said, why are u taking this to a personal level? I know how many zeros are there in 200 million. There are 8 zeros in 200 million okay. And obviously i can understand what are profits. I know how the PTOs are run because i am a transport enthusiast myself. Age does not determine a person's level of maturity. I seen 15 years old behaving like babies. I've seen 10 years old being very mature. I'm already very reasonable with my argument. Do you know anything about me? Do you know my real name, my secondary school, or any other details about me? If not, then why are you making the assumption that i do not know my math or my english?
I know my tone is harsh but I have to speak like this to let people really know that i know what i am talking about. My posts are not targeted personally. And I also need to make a strong point about what i have said given the fact that I am still very much younger than all of you out there, and obviously I know that there are many people who are against the fare raise. I believe that the minority always has to make their points strong to make their stand heard. Just my 0.2 cents.
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limlim:
SMRT trains do not buy trains. SMRT trains have no right to buy trains. LTA buys the trains. SMRT trains do not install platform screen doors. SMRT trains has no right to install platform screen doors. LTA installs platform screen doors. To make my point straight, SMRT trains only manages the operation and maintenance of the EXISTING system. SMRT Buses is a totally different case.snowman.697:
They can't because all those are much more expensive than ours!!! I share my opinion with many other transport enthusiasts - jnfortunately singaporeans these days take public transport for granted. \"there is no point arguing with these people\" Ong you yuan
SMRT profit is how many times those of the \"others\" har?
SMRT cannot afford the \"more expensive\" trains?
come on lah..
The root of the problem is simple.. SMRT is a PROFIT oriented company.. or simply, MORE profit-oriented than \"others\"
To solve the problem is to nationalize the company/public transport. -
limlim:
Dear limlim, while we encourage open sharing and debates on ideas and concepts, please focus on either supporting or arguing against the ideas, and disassociate the person from the idea.Apparently he/she is not working yet..?
Does the 13yo knows how many zeros are there in 200 mil..?
Does the 13yo understand what is the meaning of profits..?
If I read this I wouldn't have bothered to reply the previous post..
Any attack on the person making the ideas is considered a personal attack and will only serve to stifle constructive discussions. -
ChiefKiasu:
I agree, as much as I disagree that those who make complaints are called 'ugly commuters'.
Dear limlim, while we encourage open sharing and debates on ideas and concepts, please focus on either supporting or arguing against the ideas, and disassociate the person from the idea.limlim:
Apparently he/she is not working yet..?
Does the 13yo knows how many zeros are there in 200 mil..?
Does the 13yo understand what is the meaning of profits..?
If I read this I wouldn't have bothered to reply the previous post..
Any attack on the person making the ideas is considered a personal attack and will only serve to stifle constructive discussions. -
snowman.697:
I am one of the majority, and have no insider info. I feel the pinch of fare rise - or rather, rises. I am just wondering out loud - so LTA bears all the cost of building tracks and buying trains n buses? Funded by whom? And the fares paid by all the users go to -??1. fare keeps rising and we dont enjoy our ride
Singapore population is rising. COE getting higher. Obviously the ridership will be higher leading to more packed buses!!! Buses cant be purchased within a short period of time. SMRT has been evaluating the MAN NL323F from beginning of 2011 when a demonstrator unit was put on trial on service 961. What happens if they just buy any random bus, only to find out that it either
1) cant keep up with schedule (timesheet)
2) underperformance
3) crappy bodywork (what happened to SBS's Scania buses)
4) Hard to maintain
5) etc.
2. cant get into buses and trains
the NSEWL is an old system, built in 1987. It uses 1987 signalling, 1987 technology etc. How are you going to find contractors that are willing to design and build trains with the latest technology yet are able to run on these tracks? Trains are all custom built. There is no model, like say, Alstom Metropolis Ver1, Alstom Metropolis Ver2 etc. SMRT has announced an improvement to the signal system which will start in 2011 (and complete in 2017 for the NSL and 2019 for EWL). This will allow the system to handle frequencies of 100 seconds without stop-start journeys compared with the current frequency of 120 seconds. That is WHY, because when we try to run trains with frequencies SHORTER THAN 120 SECONDS, WE HAVE STOP START JOURNEYS!! THIS IS BECAUSE THE SIGNAL SYSTEM IS BEING PUSHED TO ITS LIMITS. EVERY SINGLE SIGNAL WILL BE RED OR YELLOW, CAUSING TRAINS TO EITHER STOP OR SLOW DOWN. AND YET PEOPLE COMPLAIN!!!! Then some even more ridiculous people want MANUAL overrides!!! The signal system on the NSWEL is ALREADY so COMPLEX and you are going to have people MANUALLY operate EVERY SINGLE SIGNAL on the line? How much manpower will that take? Are you willing to pay every single one of them? This is why you cant just keep deploying more and more trains on the line! Eventually the signal system wont be able to handle the load, and will either overheat, or the trains become so slow that i can walk and be faster. The trains are also driven in ATO (Automatic Train Operation) most of the time. In bad weather only then are they driven in CM (Coded Manual). CM mode is slower than ATO because the Train Operator has to use his eye power to operate the train, obviously leading to slower trains. And the train operators are not trained to smoothly stop the train. If you have taken the train on the rainy day, you will notice that it is not one smooth brake down to the station. Firstly this is because the train operators need to enter the station slowly to minimize accidents. Secondly braking force is measured in notches and controlled with a lever, not pedals, so you can only use preset amounts of force. Now are you willing to manually run the system?
Also of late I've been noticing alot of complaints about the Bt Panjang LRT. The technology on the BPLRT is 40 years old. The Bombardier CX-100 trains first debuted in an US airport in 1971. Bombardier is a Canadian company. why would you expect its trains to be able to run flawlessly in sunny Singapore? The trains are not even designed for Singapore's climate. So the fault should go to the LTA for awarding the contract to the company. SMRT is already doing its best to maintain the trains' condition. You cannot add new trains because Bombardier would have stopped producing the model and spare parts. Besides, all the trains are already fixed to the line on the third rail. How are you gonna put the train in? Rebuilding teh whole LRT system will take at least 4 years and this will even be impossible due to its proximity to HDB flats. Now anyone still complaining about the LRT system?
And for the ugly commuters, is that even SMRT's problem? It all boils down to the generally ungracious Singapore commuters. Then you blame SMRT for that? It's like blaming nature for the climate change when we humans are causing it.
Long waiting time... bus runtimes are long, traffic conditions are unpredictable. Plus many bus interchanges are basically surrounded by traffic junctions and traffic jams leading to the buses being late.. in fact only yeserday SMRT added one more trip on TQ shift (Three quarters of the day) for service 922 increasing its frequency by 10 minutes.
Limlim > Like 3Boys said, why are u taking this to a personal level? I know how many zeros are there in 200 million. There are 8 zeros in 200 million okay. And obviously i can understand what are profits. I know how the PTOs are run because i am a transport enthusiast myself. Age does not determine a person's level of maturity. I seen 15 years old behaving like babies. I've seen 10 years old being very mature. I'm already very reasonable with my argument. Do you know anything about me? Do you know my real name, my secondary school, or any other details about me? If not, then why are you making the assumption that i do not know my math or my english?
I know my tone is harsh but I have to speak like this to let people really know that i know what i am talking about. My posts are not targeted personally. And I also need to make a strong point about what i have said given the fact that I am still very much younger than all of you out there, and obviously I know that there are many people who are against the fare raise. I believe that the minority always has to make their points strong to make their stand heard. Just my 0.2 cents. -
3Boys:
Objective, maybe, but totally missing the point..
Cor...you are making this personal, aren't you? What do you know about him, why do you think he would not understand profits?
snowman actually made a pretty objective post. Keep posting, my young friend, don't be disheartened by bashing!
Overcrowded trains, unsatisfactory service quality, 200+ mil profits and asking to raise fares.
If the company is facing financial difficulties, we would all be interested to listen abt the challenges, how difficult it is to sustain the biz, what are the constraints, and how to justify the fare hike.. any maybe support them..
But now, no.. it is just a typical expression of greed knows no boundaries. -
snowman.697:
Are you trying to say that No amount of engineering can prevent FARE INCREMENT?1. fare keeps rising and we dont enjoy our ride
Oh.. well.. Sorry, I couldn't find it in the WOT.. if there is any argument for it..
Note, I'm not talking about how to solve the overcrowded train problem.. It is a tough engineering problem, no issues with your reasoning on that.
I'm talking about greed, public transport, obligations, system. -
snowman.697:
SMRT applied for fare increment (despite unsatisfactory level of service).
SMRT trains do not buy trains. SMRT trains have no right to buy trains. LTA buys the trains. SMRT trains do not install platform screen doors. SMRT trains has no right to install platform screen doors. LTA installs platform screen doors. To make my point straight, SMRT trains only manages the operation and maintenance of the EXISTING system. SMRT Buses is a totally different case.
Tough engineering problem difficult to solve.. accepted.. But shamelessly asking for fare increment despite problems not solved? unacceptable.. -
ChiefKiasu:
overreacted perhaps..
Dear limlim, while we encourage open sharing and debates on ideas and concepts, please focus on either supporting or arguing against the ideas, and disassociate the person from the idea.
Any attack on the person making the ideas is considered a personal attack and will only serve to stifle constructive discussions.
What I'm trying to say is.. title of thread -> Fare adjustment.
He talked about the difficulties and challenges face by SMRT.. fair enough, but totally missing the point..?
Actually, I'm not \"attacking\" snowman in person, but my comment is more of a \"13 yo\", talking about technical difficulties faced by SMRT, but little relevance to the main subject of \"fare increment\", difficulties of working adults in times of ever rising transportation costs despite \"stagnant\" salaries and have to squeeze in overcrowded trains to get to work to earn their keep..
Please do not relate too much to \"snowman\", but rather, \"13yo\" and \"not working\"..
Still, it may be overdone.. your feedback are noted. -
snowman.697:
I am not making any assumption of your maths or English. However, how deep is your understanding/feeling of the implications of these figures/terms? The words are harsh.. I recognize that.. It reflects the feeling of peasants on the overcrowded buses and trains, I believed.1. fare keeps rising and we dont enjoy our ride
Singapore population is rising.
2. cant get into buses and trains
Limlim > Like 3Boys said, why are u taking this to a personal level? I know how many zeros are there in 200 million. There are 8 zeros in 200 million okay. And obviously i can understand what are profits. I know how the PTOs are run because i am a transport enthusiast myself. Age does not determine a person's level of maturity. I seen 15 years old behaving like babies. I've seen 10 years old being very mature. I'm already very reasonable with my argument. Do you know anything about me? Do you know my real name, my secondary school, or any other details about me? If not, then why are you making the assumption that i do not know my math or my english?
I know my tone is harsh but I have to speak like this to let people really know that i know what i am talking about. My posts are not targeted personally. And I also need to make a strong point about what i have said given the fact that I am still very much younger than all of you out there, and obviously I know that there are many people who are against the fare raise. I believe that the minority always has to make their points strong to make their stand heard. Just my 0.2 cents.
I assume you you're trying to defend the SMRT and transport operators in the application for fare hike? (Sorry if my assumption is wrong, but my subsequent comments will be based on this assumption)
Now, I try to justify why I mentioned 200mil and profit in my earlier post.
Mr snowman, can you advise us, in your defense of the SMRT's fare hike application, HOW would increasing fares on top of the 200mil PROFIT, solve the overcrowding/frequency of bus/train issue?
Maybe.. it discourages ridership? just like how COE discourage car ownership and ERP discourage road usage? or even GST discourage consumption? (if that is even good for the economy!?)
Perhaps, these question that I posted are totally not relevant bcoz the increase in fare is NEVER to solve the overcrowding/frequency issues in the first place!....?
I'm not trying to make a personal attack, but just to point out that a 13yo non-working youth attempted to defend SMRT's fare hike but did not make any reference to the critical factors (200 mil PROFIT) in the reasoning and hence perhaps did not address the issue sufficiently.
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