Living with Depression

[Funz]

sashimi:

Hmmmmm....... your husband seems strangely... normal. I mean, nothing especially unusual. I can sympathize with the sales part. I've done that before (and not because I chose to) and I hated it. But that's me.

Oh damn! I was hoping that he is some alien and that will explain why he behaves as such. Hahah. Yah, he is normal like everyone else. Just that he has problems resolving certain feelings and letting some stuff go.

Well, sales people in certain industries are probably having a tough time since the economy came crashing down. Do you think it could be this, so simple?
Nah, this has been going on for as long as I have known him. Even during boom time, he has his periods of dark moods and all.
Heck, even though my current job doesn't involve sales, I worry about the sales health at my wife's company.

Does your husband worry about you in any way? For example, I worry a lot about my wife; I often feel that I'm financially unsuccessful and that translates to I've let her SAHM dreams down (if any left). I 'joke' to myself that I'm an atypical father, and therefore atypically poor. She says she doesn't blame me, but I can't accept it.
I dun think he worries about me. I do not wish to be a SAHM. I dun even want to be a tai tai. I want to work. My work is an integral part of me. Since marriage, he has not given me a single cent, and I have not needed nor expected him to give me any money. What we have however is a joint a/c that we contribute to for major household expenses. Big ticket items like family vacations, repairs and renos, etc. And we each put in some money into our children's a/cs. The rest of what we earn, we keep for ourselves. Worry about me like how you worry about your wife, I doubt. But I suspect that he feels a need to earn more then me. And he does. Problem is he is unable to get out of what he is doing because he has to maintain that level of earnings. Viscious cycle again. Round and round we go.

But if I want material wealth, it's got nothing to do with comparing with friends. I do wish I had some more material wealth, the kind lots of others show off; but I am dead sure it's got nothing to do with ego; i just want it for my family. It sometimes irks me that I can't afford this or that; but beyond that, we are not unhappy.
His need for material wealth is not to show off but to him it is an affirmation that he has made it in life. I know, screwed view but that is how he measure his own self worth. By the kind of car he drives, the house that he lives in, the memberships that he has.

Why would your husband make such impulse buys? Is it to satisfy himself? (I suspect not? Is he happy with those purchases?), or to satisfy family? Surely not because he's competing with his friends right?
Tell me if any of these buys strike you as something for the family. 10K sound system for his car, a BMW Cabrio 335 when I was 6mths pregnant, handphones, laptops, watches.

Let's try another tack: is your husband fed up because he lacks time for family? 15 mins an evening wrestling..... does he seem happy when he's with the kids? When he buys them toys and your children thank him, does he seem very happy?
He is definitely happy with the kids. I know that they are important to him and he loves them to bits. But everything else that he needs to do comes first. Then the kids. Anyways, this has been a sore point in our relationship all these time. Things have improved but there is still much room for improvement.

I sometimes surprise my daughter with a little gift, say a kinderjoy. It costs me only $1.60, but her smile is worth a million dollars.

For me - I constantly feel I don't have enough time for family. I miss them a lot when I'm at work. I feel better these days cos I'm reasonably happy with my work. but 2 years ago I hated my work (business problems), and try as hard as I did, I eventually succumbed and brought the stress home. I always warn myself and DW that no matter how bad work is, never never never bring the stress home. The last people you should vent work frustration on is family. (like the \"spillover\" you mentioned).
He misses us terribly whenever he is overseas. He will call or msg me a few times. And ironically, we talk to each other more when he is overseas then when he is back home. When he is in Singapore, I dun get a single call from him in during work and he will be in the study from the moment he comes home till bedtime, with the exception of that 15mins with the kids.

This is one of the primary reasons why I left my previous job, and strategically found myself one which I felt would not result in this.


OK, your husband.... could it be that - partly cos I see so far a good husband and father - he feels guilty and frustrated because he lacks time with family? He could also be the sort who wants to achieve 1001 things every 24 hours. So he jogs, he has thousands of hobbies, he wants to own stuff, he wants to please family.

He knows he lacks time, and yet he wants to do all these things. He feels guilty if he spends too much time/money on one thing, and not the other. He attempts to compensate, but I think maybe it's futile, cos 24 hours only has 24 hours. One clue there - those books he never finishes.
That to a certain extent describe how he is. Who doesn't want the cake and eat it too. His problem is this inability to derive a balance.
Umm.. about the books, not that he finds he has no time to finish but whenever he attempts to read, he ends up snoring. He is constantly amazed by how I can finish a novel in 3 days or sit and read for hours. His toilet companion is his PSP or iphone.

Does your husband bring work home,btw?
Yes, and so do I. Difference is he thinks all of us can wait for him to finish his work first whereas, I feel that my work can wait till I am finished with my family.

Eg. whenever I think about the fact that I sit with my colleagues for 8 hours a day and I spend only 2 hours a day with my DD, I feel bad as hell. Some days, we trade more words in conversation with colleagues than with one's own family members. Stupid, but true.
So true so true. And so him. I often ask him, why does he have a smiling face and become so sociable and chatty when with colleagues and frens but with his family, it is usually silence and black face. His answer is, he has to put on a mask the entire day oredi can't he be himself at home. I told him then I'd rather be your fren then your family.

Also, compensation can take the form of impulse buys, esp. \"gifts\" for oneself. I do this too. Sometimes, I would just buy something for myself. And it's often pretty expensive (by my standards anyway!!). I sometimes even feel guilty about it - eg. the money could have been spent on something for family; I would think, \"the money is X% of DD's monthly school fees, how could I have spent so \"irresponsibily\"??\"
yah, he goes thru this struggle and you know what makes it worse. He will eg, want a watch that costs say $15K, but feel that it is a bit too ex. So he looks around for something similar but cheaper, maybe something $3 or 4K and he buys that. But ultimately, he will still get the $15K watch cos that is the one that he really wants. He knows his weakness which is why he is pumping in a fair bit of money into the joint a/c and kids' a/c. He says that if it remains in his a/c, he will spend it in no time.

But... the fact is, the other part of my heart is telling me - \"you deserve it man\". So there is this struggle between duty to family and duty to self, so to speak.
In our family, he is the one who goes for retail therapy. Haha. I on the other hand hate shopping.

A perception of a lack of time to do everything can also translate into a sense that one has \"no choice\" - so many things to do, all must do, cannot not do - no choice. And yet, if he doesn't \"complete\" them, it just becomes a vicious cycle.
You said it man. But the things that he usually end up not doing due to his perceived lack of time or no choice are things with his family, like dinner, kids' first cinema experience, etc. Sad but true, it is a treat for the kids if daddy joins us for dinner on a weekday.


Could it be that your husband needs to \"complete\" something, rather than pick up more hobbies? He needs to be able to tell himself that he has completed something.


He also sounds like someone heavily burdened by obligation. Obligation = dutifulness, it's a good thing. But like kindness, the man who has good intentions needs the power and time to execute those intentions. A man who has good cause, but no power, is a pretty stressed-out man. He can feel helpless because he can't achieve what he knows should be done, and then the obligation changes into burden, of not having the power to do what he wants, no matter how justified the intentions. It creates a sense of injustice, and worse, a feeling of failure towards family and self. If this goes into work, then also, the urge to change jobs (but the cycle repeating, then it won't be the last change).
Unfortunately, I do not see it as such. Yes, he is heavily burdened by obligation but I feel not to his family. To his work. He works in an MNC. He is supposedly in charge of certain sectors. But there is corporate directions and there is local direction. Corporate direction will always override local directions even if it may not totally fit the local culture or market. The company must always consider the big picture which employees usually are not privy to. So he gets totally frustrated cos he feel that he is powerless and his views not taken into consideration which leads to all the unhappiness & feeling of being unappreciated,etc. I keep telling him he takes his job too personally and he needs to learn to understand that the management rejecting his proposals does not equate to a rejection of him per se.

Please let me know for what I've written abve - what makes sense, and what doesn't apply. A lot of it is speculation on my part after all. I'll try to suggest some solutions then.

I am glad to have someone to speculate and also coming from a man's point of view it may give me a better insight as to what DH might be going thru. Sometimes I find it very hard to talk to DH. He is a person who believes in absolutes. No such thing as agreeing to disagree and having a differing view. It is either you are with me or against me kinda mentality. And whenever he suggests something, if I so much as show hesitation in agreeing, it means I am not supportive or as he puts it always a wet blanket. And then he clams up and says he cannot talk to me. Especially so when he is going thru his depression.

[sashimi]

Hi Funz, sorry for the long absence, been very busy. But I’ve been thinking about your situation and actually I’ve come to a conclusion.


PLEASE bear in mind once again that I consider all this to be speculation, guesses and "wild" suggestions. I want to help, but I feel it is awkward and arrogant on my part to assume this "psychiatrist"/"counsellor" stance. So, pls excuse me…

Your husband is unhappy with work, which is something he cannot expect family to resolve for him. Thus, he has to settle it himself.

To counter the unhappiness, he tries to find solace in family. He also tries to find time for himself. Neither really works because work hangs over his head all the time, and he never truly has as much time for family/self as he wishes he had. In fact, I daresay that if he even attempts to find extra time for himself/family, he probably feels guilty about having "abandoned" work.

To counter that, he seeks relief in retail therapy. Retail therapy involves very little time in the act of buying, but a lot of time in the mind. Thinking about the thing to buy, thinking about the cost, thinking about justifying the purchase, and later, even thinking about the guilt after buying (if any).

If I am not wrong, he will find no solace in any of these.

I have one suggestion to offer. I suspect that one source of his misery is simply the guilt from retail therapy. You’ve mentioned this enough times to make me think this way. Retail therapy is very effective on singles, but not on family men. Almost all family men I converse with share the same sentiments on retail therapy.

So, I suggest you do a little reverse psychology.

I suggest that your family show support and interest in his "investments". Put it this way - he WILL buy it anyway, even if you protest/disagree (which makes him feel worse). There are worse things to spend on, eg. gambling.

If he feels good about the retail therapy, it may open up the way to better moods.

Assuming you can’t do anything about his work, nor the amount of time he can spend for himself, then I suggest that you just show him support when he buys something. Don’t fret/fuss over it.

This, of course, assumes that he does not go overboard and goes broke to the detriment of family. I assume you guys are sensible on this.

I am an advocate of two philosophies:
1) "Money DOES buy happiness. (Only the rich will disagree.)"
2) "Money only has value when it is well spent."

There are many many people out there who have both lousy jobs AND lousy pay. IMHO, to reach happiness, you either have to have a great job or a great pay, if not both. I always advise people to bear with their lousy jobs if the pay is great; if the pay isn’t, change job immediately. I can’t help you or your husband with his job; hence my suggestion to you is to support the way he spends his hard-earned money. So to speak. For what’s it worth… you may actually be helping him to buy (his) happiness. I know this probably sounds very superficial to some people, but in this superficial, materialistic world, it has more truth than most dare to admit.

[heutistmeintag]

sashimi:

Your husband is unhappy with work, which is something he cannot expect family to resolve for him. Thus, he has to settle it himself.
...
To counter that, he seeks relief in retail therapy.
I have one suggestion to offer. I suspect that one source of his misery is simply the guilt from retail therapy.
...
Retail therapy is very effective on singles, but not on family men. Almost all family men I converse with share the same sentiments on retail therapy.

I have a simpler view to what your DH is going through. He felt that he had lost control at work and seeks to re-assure himself (ego?) through other activities such as retail therapy. Through purchases and especially expensive ones, he perhaps felt a sense of \"achievement\" for overcoming odds and finally making the purchases.

My biggest ego purchase was bodykits, hifi and performance modifications for my car. That total expenditure came to $10+ k and it felt soooo good. So I can appreciate how your DH felt. :celebrate: My DW didnt make a big fuss then because that ego \"trip\" came becoz of a windfall that I had. To some, maybe that feeling is extremely addictive.

Fortunately, I normally dont have such ego urges and can satisfy myself with simpler CD or gadget purchases. :oops: Maybe you could discuss with your DH if my explanation makes some sense to him. If so, then can encourage him with smaller purchases not to break the bank but still feel good.

[Funz]

No need to apologise at all Sashimi.


You are right on the dot when you say that he is unhappy with his work. I think that is about the only thing that is really bothering him. He will constantly tell me that he is appreciative of me and truly blessed to have me as his wife and our two kids. So from all these, I gather we are not the key source of problem for him. But again like you mention earlier and I also definitely do understand, work plays a big part in a man’s life so this unhappiness with his work seems to obliterate most other things worth celebrating.

As for his purchases. Admittedly, I was once unhappy about his spending when he has debts to clear. But I have since overcome that. No sense in 2 persons being unhappy since however unhappy I am, he will still buy what he wants to buy and then derive no pleasure from his purchase cos I am unhappy. So these days, I am neutral while he finds short term joy. Haha.

Help him spend find happiness? I just did that in May. First I unintentionally enticed him while looking for something for myself. Then I supported him since he was interested and finally, I ‘pushed’ him into making the purchase when he had doubts. Hahah. Evil me. But no regrets. It is a purchase that the whole family can enjoy. That to me is money well spent and happiness well earned.

Thank you guys for your inputs. Reading some of your suggestions got me thinking and did help me manage some of my frustrations with DH. I know full well that ultimately, the only person who can help him is himself. I cannot solve his problems for him but I will be there to support him.

[Funz]

Insider, hope your niece and brother in law will be provide your sis with the support she needs to get through this period.


DH’s situation is not as bad. He is not suicidal but this on-going cycle can be draining.

My sis went through a rough period quite a few years back as well. She thought she was going blind (she had retina detachment) and she was suffering from a host of stress related health issues. Like DH, she suffers from anxiety attacks. She was on blood thinners and had to see a heart specialist and she was only in her mid 30s then. My BIL was travelling a lot so she was alone most of the time. I accompanied her to most of her checkups and made the effort to spend time with her. Eventually, I told her to quit her job and come work with me. And since then, things improved for her. She did mention a few times that my intervention then was really timely, she would have been lost if I had not ‘meddled’.

I read your other post about the past life stuff. Just a word of caution, such things can be a double edged sword. If your sister has the right frame of mind, it may help but if not, it may have a negative impact cos we have no idea what is going to come out of the session. JMHO.

[mathsparks]

Hi insider,

Life is difficult for a lot of people…whether those rich or poor, with gifted kids or average kids.

Fortunately, you could help your sis’ family through your niece. Your strength, faith and wisdom will see her through this difficult time. Take care.

[Funz]

insider:

mathsparks:

Hi insider,

Life is difficult for a lot of people..whether those rich or poor, with gifted kids or average kids.

Fortunately, you could help your sis' family through your niece. Your strength, faith and wisdom will see her through this difficult time. Take care.

Hi Mathsparks


Thanks!

Life is always a challenge and it's only through these challenges that we can make ourselves stronger and better. It's just sad that some cannot pull through life adversities when adversities are inevitable in life...

I can write a lot over here not because I am 'cleverer' but maybe coz I am older and may have much more real life experience up to date than most of the younger parents here (whether personal or seeing other real life cases and learnt and reflected from each one).

In my study of Human Development, there is a part about children usually will model the life of their parents. This I have shared somewhere in this forum, meaning if one works like a cow, his kid will have a high chance to work like one when grows up; if one suicide, high chance of child also suicide, etc. I strongly believe in positive role modeling as far as parenting is concerned. My sis married young to escape from her hard family life at age around 22. I don't know this will happen to her 19 years old daughter or not (assuming my sis carries on to so unstable, my niece may decide to faster get married to escape from her house. This 'karma' thing whether will happen or not is yet to see...

Come to think of it, DH's mum does suffer from depression. There were times when she will call DH or SIL crying and saying that she is so lonely, no one cares about her and she is better off dead. She li jia chu zhou before, and picked on FIL all the time, accusing him of being unfaithful and all. She threatened suicide during our wedding preparation as well when things did not go as according to her expectations. She is a little better now that she has found God. Her new found religion has given her an outlet, a pillar to lean on.

I am not sure about this 'karma' thing but I think if one grows up in such a setting, certain things become the 'norm'. And where depression is concerned, many studies have shown that it is hereditary. Kids with depressed parents are more likely to suffer from depression. And kids do consciously or unconsciously model their lives after their parents' to a certain degree.

[ZacK]

insider:

Think my sis is currently in that blind spot. The course will start on 18 Sep

Sorry to hear that insider... Hope you will be able to help your sis pull thru... Wonder if part of her problems is because she feels she is a \"failure\" after putting in so much for her family ... Yet kids are defiant and constantly ending in a \"deadlock\" situation with her kids. Plus she does not seem to be close to hubby ... So in a way, the very environment that she puts her heart and soul in is not giving her the love, warmth, comfort and assurance that a loving and closely knitted family brings.

Of cos, there may be other elements that are adding to the stress that is resulting in this time being more serious and previous times.

It's scary for someone to habour thoughts of suicide, as they are like a walking time-bomb... May not be able to gauge when and when the bomb will blow.

May be good to have a word with your bro-in-law and nephew/nieces on your observation and gut feel... All they need is to stop being selfish and wanting their way and try to be more appreciative of what your sis is doing for them. Hopefully by feeling the love and warmth again... She may feel slightly better and see some light at the end of the tunnel... The blind spot that you talked abt, some just spiral downwards toward darkness and never climb out

[ZacK]

insider:

One of my master's teachings is if I feel I am sacrificing to do something, the best thing is not to do that something coz the long term outcome is unlikely to be good for the giver and the receiver. The most one can go is compromise and not sacrifice. I hold this also firmly in my mind consciously and whenever I feel I have to 'sacrifice', I look for alternative solutions to a situation to reach compromise. Master's teaching is SELF must be first and so don't sacrifice for anyone, include parents, and likewise, don't expect people to sacrifice for you and always look for compromise.

In my eyes, my sis is complete sacrifice for her family (her job, her friends, her own parents' family due to minimal contact and that's a great guilt to a filial child like her), and when these sacrifices don't seem to bear fruit (I am sure it will if she can wait some more coz these kids need time to mature), she probably goes into self-pity mood with all these negative thoughts...

It is every human's nature to be self-centred... When we give... We also expect something in return... Altho not in the same form or quantum. Can anyone give unconditionally and never receive anything in return? I do not think such a person exists and such an arrangement is healthy... Even when someone gives to charity anonymously, he would have gained (not in the same material form) but in terms of emotional fulfillment knowing that he was in a position to help someone else.

I agree that your sis needs to give her kids more time... Not all kids will be sensible when growing up... But given time, most kids will 开窍 and will realise and appreciate the hardships that parents go thru to bring them up.

I would suggest that perhaps your sis takes a break from her family routine a short while... Go away perhaps with you or some close friends, if any, but not with family... Do something and pamper herself for once, after having slogged for the family for so long. Just to let her know that besides her family... She also needs to take care of herself and her own well-being.

insider:

I find it difficult to talk to him as not sure about his personality (whether after the talk, he will accept or will go home and scold my sis for spilling her troubles to let everyone knows). If really need be, will call him for a chat as a last resort (hope still got time)...

May not be that your sis told you mah, I wouldnt like my wife to go ard telling other people as well... Can always say that you would like to share with him your observations regarding your sis and how this time is different from your previous observations, just to draw his attention on the severity and then hear what he may say... Perhaps he may be looking for someone to 诉苦 as well except that he did not know how to broach this matter to anyone.

All the best!

[puff]

Hi Funz


I used to suffer from depression too and i had symptoms similar to your DH.
I had cycles of dark mood and during these period i usually go drinking or shopping and would sometime experienced cold sweat and breathlessness. I used to find life meaningless and even attempted suicide twice but I am lucky to get out of it now.

From what i’ve been thro’ i think your DH depression could be due to job stress ( diff ppl have diff stress tolerance lvl so to u it might seem ok but could be very stressful for others) and another reason is what sashimi had mentioned the male role that he needs to be the pillar of support for the family if he appeared weak that may look unmanly.

To find out if his job is the sole problem to his depression try to discuss with him what are his alternative of changing job or start own biz (be optimistic and open with suggestion). It is important to let your DH knows that his happiness is your main concern be it whatever decision he made.
All this may take some time as it took my DH 3 years to let the idea sink in my head that i can quit my job as long as i am happy. Try to observe the frequency of his dark mood if there is lesser episode of his mood change then job stress could be 1 of the main problem.

After reading your post I ask my DH how he manage to ‘treat’ my depression… he told me REN ( tolerate) and lots of patient. Depression is a type of illness just like any other illness that need lots of understanding and love from family members.