Should DSA be scrapped?

[phtthp]

omg ! :gloomy: if rumor is true, safer to rely on psle score.

[corneyAmber]

MrsSeah:

Dr.K:

I heard someone say those selected by sports CCA in one top school are asked to sit for their exams as private candidates.

I heard of this rumour before. If it is really true, than it is REALLY bad. After making use of the student to win all the award for them for 4 years, than they KICK them out. :rant:

This is something probably MOE can play the referee and not allow this to happen in the school with its set of written guidelines to the Principals. The required action would be to give more academic support for the child to perform satisfactorily academically. A partnership should be win-win.

[MandyMummy]

ksi:

MrsSeah:

[quote=\"Dr.K\"]


I heard someone say those selected by sports CCA in one top school are asked to sit for their exams as private candidates.

I heard of this rumour before. If it is really true, than it is REALLY bad. After making use of the student to win all the award for them for 4 years, than they KICK them out. :rant:

This is something probably MOE can play the referee and not allow this to happen in the school with its set of written guidelines to the Principals. The required action would be to give more academic support for the child to perform satisfactorily academically. A partnership should be win-win.[/quote]Singapore school students cannot take GCE exams administered by SEAB as private candidates. However, some national sports representatives in IP may choose to study and train overseas so usually they will take the IGCSE for entrance to US uni. Some well-known national swimmers have done that.

[corneyAmber]

MandyMummy:

ksi:

[quote=\"MrsSeah\"]

I heard of this rumour before. If it is really true, than it is REALLY bad. After making use of the student to win all the award for them for 4 years, than they KICK them out. :rant:

This is something probably MOE can play the referee and not allow this to happen in the school with its set of written guidelines to the Principals. The required action would be to give more academic support for the child to perform satisfactorily academically. A partnership should be win-win.

Singapore school students cannot take GCE exams administered by SEAB as private candidates. However, some national sports representatives in IP may choose to study and train overseas so usually they will take the IGCSE for entrance to US uni. Some well-known national swimmers have done that.[/quote]This is good information indeed. However, I think the above posts may be suggesting that the students are asked to leave the school and take as private candidates. If they drop out from school, I believe they can right? So this is something MOE can help to prevent if it is indeed happening.

[MandyMummy]

ksi:

MandyMummy:

[quote=\"ksi\"]
This is something probably MOE can play the referee and not allow this to happen in the school with its set of written guidelines to the Principals. The required action would be to give more academic support for the child to perform satisfactorily academically. A partnership should be win-win.

Singapore school students cannot take GCE exams administered by SEAB as private candidates. However, some national sports representatives in IP may choose to study and train overseas so usually they will take the IGCSE for entrance to US uni. Some well-known national swimmers have done that.

This is good information indeed. However, I think the above posts may be suggesting that the students are asked to leave the school and take as private candidates. If they drop out from school, I believe they can right? So this is something MOE can help to prevent if it is indeed happening.[/quote]Usually when these students cannot make the promotion criteria, they are usually asked to repeat. However, some of them may not want to repeat, so they choose to 'transfer' out. When they are no longer school candidates, they can then take GCE level exam as private candidates. I don't think MOE can do anything, because the school has offered the student a chance to repeat which is according to the guidelines.

[coast]

Chenonceau:

From my own experience, children of 13 and 14 were made to miss TWO hours of classes everyday to train for 1 month before the competition. After the competition, they had to train everyday after school till 8pm. On Saturdays and Sundays, training was from 9am to 7pm. One child cried because she had not time to study. Poor child's parents dared not intervene. My DD cried too. I asked her to choose (because I was afraid of the Principal), saying that it was ok if she failed an exam or too. She chose to study. In the end, my husband kicked my butt and made me stand up for my DD.

After getting gold for the school the poor child who cried failed all her exams and she was asked to leave the school. Now, if someone had cared enough, or had been wise enough to bring balance back between training and study, this child would not have failed. The incident was traumatic for the child and did nothing for her self-esteem. DSA is a double-edged sword. Under the much more formalized DSA, you OWE it to the school to bring in that gold. It's a transaction. My DD signed a contract stating that she would train the hours necessary and stay with the CCA. This did not exist in the time when we were students.

It is good though... that they will be reviewing how schools are being appraised.

Hi Chenonceau,

How close are those intensive training to the exams? What is the purpose of training so hard AFTER the competition?

Did your DD's contract state the number of training hours in the contract? Or just a generic term \"necessary hours\"?

It is really sad to hear about such an incident (the poor student being asked to leave). MOE can and ought to do something to prevent such things from happening. The training hours do not sound right even for competition preparation (unless it's during school holidays) and I do not think MOE supports skipping some lessons everyday for a month! I am really surprised that the school can endorse such a training schedule.

I am not clear about your last sentence \"It is good though... that they will be reviewing how schools are being appraised.\". Isn't academic success a major kpi for schools? If it is indeed so and yet the school can go ahead with training hours that are clearly detrimental to study (and hence affecting the academic results), why would a review help?

On a side note, I would think that most competitions are not near to exams so there are time for students to study for their exams after the competitions? I also overheard a top sec school's students mention about \"CCA stand down\" though I am not sure how many weeks before the exams.

[coast]

MandyMummy:

ksi:

[quote=\"MandyMummy\"]
Singapore school students cannot take GCE exams administered by SEAB as private candidates. However, some national sports representatives in IP may choose to study and train overseas so usually they will take the IGCSE for entrance to US uni. Some well-known national swimmers have done that.

This is good information indeed. However, I think the above posts may be suggesting that the students are asked to leave the school and take as private candidates. If they drop out from school, I believe they can right? So this is something MOE can help to prevent if it is indeed happening.

Usually when these students cannot make the promotion criteria, they are usually asked to repeat. However, some of them may not want to repeat, so they choose to 'transfer' out. When they are no longer school candidates, they can then take GCE level exam as private candidates. I don't think MOE can do anything, because the school has offered the student a chance to repeat which is according to the guidelines.[/quote]MOE can look at the statistics? If there is a clear disparity in the academic performance of these students (school team, non-academic DSA, ... etc) compared to other students in the same school, it is an indication that something could be wrong (e.g., those training hours that Chenonceau wrote in an earlier post, then MOE can issue guidelines to stop all schools from such hectic training during school term).

[Chenonceau]

coast:

Chenonceau:

From my own experience, children of 13 and 14 were made to miss TWO hours of classes everyday to train for 1 month before the competition. After the competition, they had to train everyday after school till 8pm. On Saturdays and Sundays, training was from 9am to 7pm. One child cried because she had not time to study. Poor child's parents dared not intervene. My DD cried too. I asked her to choose (because I was afraid of the Principal), saying that it was ok if she failed an exam or too. She chose to study. In the end, my husband kicked my butt and made me stand up for my DD.

After getting gold for the school the poor child who cried failed all her exams and she was asked to leave the school. Now, if someone had cared enough, or had been wise enough to bring balance back between training and study, this child would not have failed. The incident was traumatic for the child and did nothing for her self-esteem. DSA is a double-edged sword. Under the much more formalized DSA, you OWE it to the school to bring in that gold. It's a transaction. My DD signed a contract stating that she would train the hours necessary and stay with the CCA. This did not exist in the time when we were students.

It is good though... that they will be reviewing how schools are being appraised.

Hi Chenonceau,

How close are those intensive training to the exams? What is the purpose of training so hard AFTER the competition?

Did your DD's contract state the number of training hours in the contract? Or just a generic term \"necessary hours\"?

It is really sad to hear about such an incident (the poor student being asked to leave). MOE can and ought to do something to prevent such things from happening. The training hours do not sound right even for competition preparation (unless it's during school holidays) and I do not think MOE supports skipping some lessons everyday for a month! I am really surprised that the school can endorse such a training schedule.

I am not clear about your last sentence \"It is good though... that they will be reviewing how schools are being appraised.\". Isn't academic success a major kpi for schools? If it is indeed so and yet the school can go ahead with training hours that are clearly detrimental to study (and hence affecting the academic results), why would a review help?

On a side note, I would think that most competitions are not near to exams so there are time for students to study for their exams after the competitions? I also overheard a top sec school's students mention about \"CCA stand down\" though I am not sure how many weeks before the exams.

My incident happened many years ago. There may well be some guidelines now. There was a charity drive 1 week after competitions which required the children's CCA skills. The CCA hours after exams were set down by the Teacher and 2 parent volunteers. The Principal stepped in to make these more reasonable.

No... the contract did not state hours of training. As for academic KPIs, CCA awards are also very important. Schools must deliver holistically on all the measurables. Hence, the school is very clear that the REASON these DSA kids are in the school is because of their talent. They don't expect these children to do well academically. Kids are part of the schools resource deployment. Deploy the right resources to the right tasks and performance will be good.

But let's cut past all these details.

I just wanted to clearly make the point that schools don't do DSA for purely altruistic motives. It has nothing to do with not wanting to deprive talented individuals. The school can get a lot out of a CCA winner... and that is the major reason why they take the kids.

I don't think there is anything wrong with DSA. The schools want a diversity of talent. The kids want to do well. The kids can be stretched (as long as parents are vigilant and are aware of where the schools are coming from, it should be fine because you need to make sure you bring a counter balance when your kid's welfare is at stake). I just did not like the sugar coating on the words that make the DSA sound like a favour to students. It is a transaction, and not a favour the school does to us and our children.

[corneyAmber]

MandyMummy:

ksi:

[quote=\"MandyMummy\"]
Singapore school students cannot take GCE exams administered by SEAB as private candidates. However, some national sports representatives in IP may choose to study and train overseas so usually they will take the IGCSE for entrance to US uni. Some well-known national swimmers have done that.

This is good information indeed. However, I think the above posts may be suggesting that the students are asked to leave the school and take as private candidates. If they drop out from school, I believe they can right? So this is something MOE can help to prevent if it is indeed happening.

Usually when these students cannot make the promotion criteria, they are usually asked to repeat. However, some of them may not want to repeat, so they choose to 'transfer' out. When they are no longer school candidates, they can then take GCE level exam as private candidates. I don't think MOE can do anything, because the school has offered the student a chance to repeat which is according to the guidelines.[/quote]Thanks for sharing again MandyMummy. Like what coast has mentioned, if the numbers of children not performing well academically warrant attention, perhaps it is worthwhile for MOE to look at pro-active guidelines instead of corrective guidelines. Asking a child to repeat is after-things-go-wrong policy. If there is a clear guideline given that such children should be given additional x hours of academic support to bridge the gap of missed lessons, perhaps that would help ease out the unhappiness of contributing and then falling short of academic performance. If there are no resources to do that in school, outsourcing this to a tuition centre can be justified to MOE as they are talents who bring glory to the school or even a co-share model for the tuition fees with parents would be appreciated I believe.

The other point I like to highlight is when such talents bring glory to the school they also bring glory to themselves in their portfolio, so there is definitely a benefit to the children when they invest time in exceling in the CCA. I see mutual benefits in this even though it may be deemed as transactional.

[Chenonceau]

ksi:

The other point I like to highlight is when such talents bring glory to the school they also bring glory to themselves in their portfolio, so there is definitely a benefit to the children when they invest time in exceling in the CCA. I see mutual benefits in this even though it may be deemed as transactional.

When it is transactional, there should be mutual benefit. Otherwise, how to transact? Still, there is something missing when schools transact more than they care for the general well being of each child AND make it seem like they're doing the child a kind favour.

It is a transaction. No more.

In my DD's year 3 DSA children were MADE to leave. No remedial action. Just go. One set of parents went to great lengths to keep their child in the school. Volunteered extensively. Sat on parent volunteer board. From one week to another, parents disappeared. But maybe that has changed since then. It was many many years ago.

To be fair to MOE too, the school has since undergone a change in Principal. The new Principal made it VERY clear that such training hours were unacceptable. Perhaps my DD's experience was a one off. Still, it doesn't change the fact that the DSA is a transaction, and like in any transaction, ya gotta watch your own bottomline and make sure you're not short changed. No one's gonna care for your kid if you don't.

Things got so bad that at one point, I told someone... I want my DD to reach her potential, not die for that Gold. I do have high standards. I push my children as far as they can go. But I know my kids, and they're not geniuses and if I see that pushing even further will result in emotional and physical damage, I will draw a firm line there and you will have to step over my dead body to get at my kids.