Can we bring our students' learning away from tuition?
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Regarding this topic, maybe we could ask the ministers or teachers or the MOE heads whether they send their kids or grandchildren for tuition? :evil:
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Chenonceau:
Well, I am saying there are some students who expect to be top 3%, and the kids know they could not answer some questions, they might cry right? But that does not mean the paper is difficult mah.
No lah... really... kids finish exam and come out and cry. The parents wrote to forum. When results came out not so bad. A couple of years ago I think...coast:
It might not be because of PSLE's difficulty. Just this recent 2011 PSLE results release, a parent told me that in her dd school, some kids who score 250++ cried. Why? Because they cannot get into Rxx .. So it could be their expectations (to be top 3%) rather than the difficulty.
Hmm, could that be the reason why they need bell-curve for A*, A, .... too? So that overall % of A*, A, ... remain consistent and that the level of difficulty remains consistent across the years. But in the first place, % of A* or A or B or ... are not released anyway, only Quality Passes (A* & A) are released, so why cannot fixed the marks for A*, A...? -
coast:
I woke up this morning and an answer popped up
I have been :? to think of the reasons why MOE does not release the exact PSLE past years' papers? I really dread to think discriminatory is the reason. They already have GEP (which has a small class-size ratio and I also read in KSP that GEP students have advantage in DSA) ... GEP selection is veiled (it does not bother me since it affects only 1%) but PSLE is a national exam. One MP has asked in Parliament why MOE does not release raw scores. If only that MP follows up with more questions like \"Why can't you release PSLE papers?\", \"Why are the range for grades A*, A*, .... not fixed?\"Chenonceau:
Yeah lor.... true standards are a big secret because if people knew, they would all aim for it... and then the PSLE won't be discriminatory anymore. The solution then is to ensure that the market does not get perfect information (whether in terms of standards nor access to educational resources). What this means is that it isn't the best child that wins, but the child that has access to privileged information (whether in terms of standards or educational resources).
The PSLE must be discriminatory you see.
I realised I have been thinking about the correct questions (bold above) and now that I have a logical explanation, I am a bit embarrassed that I did not deduce it earlier. Of course my guess could still be wrong but I have convinced myself
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coast:
Just guessing.... Maybe MOE is worried that if they release the entire paper, then teachers/tutors will start to query over the scores that their children get when PSLE results are out because they will be able to find out which are the questions that the children did wrongly. Then MOE will be busy answering phone calls and re-marking papers.....
I have been :? to think of the reasons why MOE does not release the exact PSLE past years' papers? I really dread to think discriminatory is the reason. They already have GEP (which has a small class-size ratio and I also read in KSP that GEP students have advantage in DSA) ... GEP selection is veiled (it does not bother me since it affects only 1%) but PSLE is a national exam. One MP has asked in Parliament why MOE does not release raw scores. If only that MP follows up with more questions like \"Why can't you release PSLE papers?\", \"Why are the range for grades A*, A*, .... not fixed?\" -
jesschan:
I did consider the above too. But if I am not wrong, MOE releases the exact O levels past years' paper? If so, then it would not be the case.
Just guessing.... Maybe MOE is worried that if they release the entire paper, then teachers/tutors will start to query over the scores that their children get when PSLE results are out because they will be able to find out which are the questions that the children did wrongly. Then MOE will be busy answering phone calls and re-marking papers.....coast:
I have been :? to think of the reasons why MOE does not release the exact PSLE past years' papers? I really dread to think discriminatory is the reason. They already have GEP (which has a small class-size ratio and I also read in KSP that GEP students have advantage in DSA) ... GEP selection is veiled (it does not bother me since it affects only 1%) but PSLE is a national exam. One MP has asked in Parliament why MOE does not release raw scores. If only that MP follows up with more questions like \"Why can't you release PSLE papers?\", \"Why are the range for grades A*, A*, .... not fixed?\"
Yes, parents can find out which questions their children did wrongly but raw scores are not disclosed. Grade mark range is not fixed (i.e., for any particular year ... you do not know the marks range for A*, A ...). So the basis of appealing to MOE for grades would remain the same. Besides, MOE can publish the actual papers way after PSLE results are released and settled. -
coast:
I think O Levels is not marked locally, so not MOE's problem.....
I did consider the above too. But if I am not wrong, MOE releases the exact O levels past years' paper? If so, then it would not be the case.
Yes, parents can find out which questions their children did wrongly but raw scores are not disclosed. Grade mark range is not fixed (i.e., for any particular year ... you do not know the marks range for A*, A ...). So the basis of appealing to MOE for grades would remain the same. Besides, MOE can publish the actual papers way after PSLE results are released and settled. -
jesschan:
I think O Level's papers are marked locally. But they are set by Cambridge. So your guess could still be right
I think O Levels is not marked locally, so not MOE's problem.....coast:
I did consider the above too. But if I am not wrong, MOE releases the exact O levels past years' paper? If so, then it would not be the case.
Yes, parents can find out which questions their children did wrongly but raw scores are not disclosed. Grade mark range is not fixed (i.e., for any particular year ... you do not know the marks range for A*, A ...). So the basis of appealing to MOE for grades would remain the same. Besides, MOE can publish the actual papers way after PSLE results are released and settled. Anyway I am not even sure if they publish the exact O Level's past year papers.
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coast:
I don't get your point.
How about private tuition?
How about some parents who quit their jobs full-time to coach their kids? Parents who are both working will cry foul.
Our objective is to convince parents that tuition is Not necessary, not ban tuition. No one is stopping anyone from having tuition.
if parent feel that spending few hundreds per month \"can help/to help\" their kids get 85 marks instead of 84 marks in the exams/tests, so be it.
As long as the schools is teaching enough of what they're testing, they need not worry too much.
Schools should be a place where kids learn, and not just evaluated. -
limlim:
I don't get your point.coast:
How about private tuition?
How about some parents who quit their jobs full-time to coach their kids? Parents who are both working will cry foul.
Our objective is to convince parents that tuition is Not necessary, not ban tuition. No one is stopping anyone from having tuition.
if parent feel that spending few hundreds per month \"can help/to help\" their kids get 85 marks instead of 84 marks in the exams/tests, so be it.
As long as the schools is teaching enough of what they're testing, they need not worry too much.
Schools should be a place where kids learn, and not just evaluated.limlim:
I was referring to your idea of schools being penalised for students having tuition (bold above).How about this.. MOE should conduct surveys on students to find how many is having tuition, and schools should discourage students from having tuition.
School with very very low % of student having tuition (say, <1%) will be given incentive, and schools with high % of students (say, > 40%) having tuition will be given dis-incentive, or demerit points etc..
So, the teachers will have to do their part to convince parents that tuition is not needed..
Of coz, this is very brief and there may be many considerations.. but.. would this be in the right direction? To move students away from tuition, this have to start from the root itself.. the schools..
The metrics have to be fair. Personally I cannot think of a comprehensive way to measure % of students having tuition (if you take into account private tuition and extensive parent coaching). I am just throwing out some \"obstacles\" I can think of but will be very happy if some parents or educators can come out with good ideas to implement it I certainly support the idea if its objective is schools teach better (with better materials) instead of asking/assuming parents sending their kids for enrichment/tuition or parents having to coach their kids extensively.
That's my 2-cents view
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coast:
i don't think parents who are both working are narrow-minded to cry foul over some other parents who quit their jobs to coach their kids. it is not easy to put one's job on hold for the kids. family with both working parents could also follow suit if they feel that it is what their kids need (be it emotional support during PSLE or personal coaching by parents - it aim easy leh to coach own kids at times). only a small handful will make a lot of noise, but generally, parents' grouse are the need to turn to tuition. for current syllabus, if kids who do not have tuition of any sorts, and at least need to turn to a relative, older sibling, parents for help in order to do well, what does it say about how much are being taught in sch (or the difficulty of syllabus these days)?
How about some parents who quit their jobs full-time to coach their kids? Parents who are both working will cry foul.
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