Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)
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Mychildren:
Only had onsponge and agree that the kid need to have strong foundation or else it's just a waste of time. I find the GEP qns still easier than the more difficult onsponge qns.Frankly speaking, I won't recommend onsponge unless the child already had a very strong and good foundation. If not, it will create confusion. The basic concept must be there before inputting more.
To me, Andrew Er's books are good enough. -
Chenonceau:
don't get me wrong. The free resources are great. It is just that it not used to it's fullest potential. The problem solvers are great people who are interested in helping children. The issue is that the parents or sometimes, the children are not asking the right questions to the problem solvers. They just take the solution, say their thanks and off they go. Only to return in a few days later with more questions on the same topic. So much for fishing on their own.
At the very least, such free resources help these astute students... which is better than having no one to ask... I guess. Have you in mind other ways to help such students who may have nowhere else to ask their questions when schools test what they don't think they need to teach?TheBluePapa:
The parents fail to understand that the presented solution is just a presentation, neatly packaged into nicely aligned boxes, the actual analysis of the problem was never explained. Why did they choose the particular heuristic as opposed to some other heuristic is never explained, it just is. The more astute students might form their own conclusions on a defining logic that links to that particular problem type. Most will just accept without questioning and move on. Such is life in the Maths underworld.
If they had asked the pertinent questions, why this heuristic, why not that heuristic ? what defines this particular question type ? how would they recognize such question type again, what are the possible permutations of this particular question type ? why is it that when the question is phrased this way, it means ....., why doesn't it mean ...... ask the questions, so that you know how to fish on your own.....
It is only by asking such questions, it shows that the student is actively analyzing the question as opposed to just accepting it. The problem solvers have experience in handling hundreds of such problems and can give you insights into their world, if you only ask. I have yet to see such questions, most just ask why is 1 + 1 = 2 type of questions, if at all. -
TheBluePapa:
don't get me wrong. The free resources are great. It is just that it not used to it's fullest potential. The problem solvers are great people who are interested in helping children. The issue is that the parents or sometimes, the children are not asking the right questions to the problem solvers. They just take the solution, say their thanks and off they go. Only to return in a few days later with more questions on the same topic. So much for fishing on their own.
At the very least, such free resources help these astute students... which is better than having no one to ask... I guess. Have you in mind other ways to help such students who may have nowhere else to ask their questions when schools test what they don't think they need to teach?Chenonceau:
[quote=\"TheBluePapa\"]
The parents fail to understand that the presented solution is just a presentation, neatly packaged into nicely aligned boxes, the actual analysis of the problem was never explained. Why did they choose the particular heuristic as opposed to some other heuristic is never explained, it just is. The more astute students might form their own conclusions on a defining logic that links to that particular problem type. Most will just accept without questioning and move on. Such is life in the Maths underworld.
If they had asked the pertinent questions, why this heuristic, why not that heuristic ? what defines this particular question type ? how would they recognize such question type again, what are the possible permutations of this particular question type ? why is it that when the question is phrased this way, it means ....., why doesn't it mean ...... ask the questions, so that you know how to fish on your own.....
It is only by asking such questions, it shows that the student is actively analyzing the question as opposed to just accepting it. The problem solvers have experience in handling hundreds of such problems and can give you insights into their world, if you only ask. I have yet to see such questions, most just ask why is 1 + 1 = 2 type of questions, if at all.[/quote]I agree. Thanks for clarifying.
I post on average 3 questions a month in that thread and I don't bother to understand the working directly. I get my son to log on and explain the why to me... and to brainstorm alternative methods of solving.
Maybe this helps? I'm a math idiot so this is the best I could think of to help DS to mastery. But I will bear in mind your advice. Thanks for sharing. -
atutor2001:
When my dd was in P3 her school conducted parent's workshop introducing model drawing, they told us that the children are required to use MD in their exam up till P4 if i remember correctly. It is because they are expected to understand MD before using other method, so I did not teach dd other method as not to confuse her n also MD is the only method which is allowed in exams. Only when dd in p5 I go ahead helping her with other method when I see her teacher introduced her class many other ways in solving problems.
Yes model is only 1 of the many heuristic approach. However, it is ironical to draw model because if someone can understand the logic/approach, he/she can solve without the models. Why spend time drawing the model? If one does not have the slightest idea of how to solve, drawing the models the wrong way will not help either. There are many ways to draw models but weak students usually only know how to draw simple comparison model of A & B. They can stare at them for the entire duration of the exam and nothing will surface.
The impression given by many teachers and tutors is that drawing model will show us the way to the solution for most problem. To make matter worse, many teachers go to the extent of threatening their students that marks will be deducted if they don't use model. (because they only know how to determine if working is correct or wrong as answer keys used model).
To further complicate matter, many innovative individuals would do their best to apply/promote \"model method\" to all kinds of problem sum, including those that can be easier solved with other methods. A typical example is to represent the value of money in 4 units of $10 notes, with a rectangle divided into 4 rows and 10 columns.
Model concept has been abused. I have experimented with kids who failed miserably using model. Just teach them simple algebraic manipulation and simultaneous equations, they can solve most, if not all, the conventional problem sums by P6.
ppl tend to forget that technics/methods are meant to help in solving problem, NOT learning technics for the sake of technics and become a prisoner of technics. I learnt it at school when my math teacher asked the class on hw to solve a problem, none can come up with answer & when he finally asked me n I answered with simple calculation the whole class mumbled :\" oh.. its only like that...\" as if its only a simple answer that everyone can come up with but none came up with answer just showed that they dont hv enough understanding of the concept therefore their imagination gone to the most difficult technic that they can come up with and ended up with no answer.
When i helped dd in solving a math hw problem she told me \"mom, u r using branch method ! \" I was like \"huh? it has a name ?? I didnt know that\" ÿes mom i learned it at school\" \"is it in yr text bk ? \" \"no, but the p1 text bk has almost similar thing called number bonding\" ok you can call it whatever, mommy just call it logical thinking
later on I found out onsponge bk has it & it called part-whole relationship... 
I understand that assesment bks has terminologies for the technics to help students in identifying which problem sum & which technic to apply, it does not meant to be rote learning... the students still need to understand the concepts,
when you really understand the concepts, no matter what name it will be in next 10yrs you still be able to identify and even solve it... -
Pen88n:
I don't think it is a \"one method fits all questions\" type of teaching for Maths. Most schs / tuition centres teach by \"drilling\" - you practise more, recognise the question style and apply the methology to the same type of questions. I know of kids who have been drilled to do this, and score well in Maths when the questions are what they are exposed to. These kids will fail miserably in years when MOE came out with unconventional PSLE questions (which luckily did not happen in the last 2 years). I know, those kids who are very strong in Maths are all crying \"unlucky\" for the last 2 years. One man's meat is another man's poison - can't please all![/quote]I beg to differ. I don't know about other tutors but I never drill my students. This is the worst thing you can do to a child. Maths is a very lively subject actually. The most important thing is to understand the concept and know what is required from the student. Our system is very systematic and the concepts are taught upon concepts from P1 to P6. My method of teaching is to teach the student to understand the various concepts and build their understanding from basic - level upon level. I do agree that MOE set very unconventional questions but if a student knew the concepts very well, he/she can solve any questions \"thrown\" at him/her. The only problem, IMHO, is the time factor. Having to solve 50 different questions in less than 2 hours is enough stress already. That is why I always emphasize speed in solving easier questions so that more time can be 'saved' for killer questions. Some of my weaker students think that being given the use of calculators is godsend. In fact, the opposite is true. The calculators can be a hindrance than a help. Moreover, the structural change to the PSLE papers due to the use of calculators has actually made matters worse. It has become a new ball game altogether. :lightrod:
I think the main problem is that the kids don't try to analyzing the questions and try to solve it. Instead, they try to find a suitable heuristic to fit the qns. Like someone mentioned, the difficult qns can involve a couple or more heuristic...and the kids goes into mental block state. Math is not something u can solve with some standard prescribed steps.Nebbermind:
[quote=\"atutor2001\"] Yes model is only 1 of the many heuristic approach. However, it is ironical to draw model because if someone can understand the logic/approach, he/she can solve without the models. Why spend time drawing the model? If one does not have the slightest idea of how to solve, drawing the models the wrong way will not help either. There are many ways to draw models but weak students usually only know how to draw simple comparison model of A & B. They can stare at them for the entire duration of the exam and nothing will surface.
The impression given by many teachers and tutors is that drawing model will show us the way to the solution for most problem. To make matter worse, many teachers go to the extent of threatening their students that marks will be deducted if they don't use model. (because they only know how to determine if working is correct or wrong as answer keys used model).
To further complicate matter, many innovative individuals would do their best to apply/promote \"model method\" to all kinds of problem sum, including those that can be easier solved with other methods. A typical example is to represent the value of money in 4 units of $10 notes, with a rectangle divided into 4 rows and 10 columns.
Model concept has been abused. I have experimented with kids who failed miserably using model. Just teach them simple algebraic manipulation and simultaneous equations, they can solve most, if not all, the conventional problem sums by P6. -
Being a teacher myself, I fully understand the frustrations parents feel. After all, I’m a parent of a P4 as well.
I feel guilty, very guilty of robbing my child of her childhood.
When I was studying, all I did was finish my homework and
that’s about it. I had time to play with my neighbours,
No tuition or enrichment. My mum was a teacher too and
she did not teach me at all. I was on my own.
But I turn out fine.
But sadly, this is not the case now.
More resources are available,
but questions are ridiculously difficult.
Some of my child’s p3 maths paper questions
are found in a p5 test paper of another school.
It was not taught, but they are expected to know?
No wonder she can’t do, only those in p3 who are
learning p5 stuff will know.
But if I do not step in and help, my child would be struggling and
failing, and feeling so bad about herself.
I’m not blessed with a smart kid who can figure things out herself.
So I have to step in.
I pity the kids these days. -
szepinge:
Thanks for sharing esp given that you are a teacher yourself.
But if I do not step in and help, my child would be struggling and
failing, and feeling so bad about herself.
I'm not blessed with a smart kid who can figure things out herself.
So I have to step in.
Well, how many kids can figure things out themselves for tough Math sums?! At that age they definitely need some form of guidance. The difference is in the quality of teaching in her school and how fast the kid can absorb and apply.
So our kids are mostly like yours. :hugs:
Your kid is normal.... It's the expectations and difficulty level that are abnormal. -
szepinge:
Thanks for sharingBeing a teacher myself, I fully understand the frustrations parents feel. After all, I'm a parent of a P4 as well.
I feel guilty, very guilty of robbing my child of her childhood.
When I was studying, all I did was finish my homework and
that's about it. I had time to play with my neighbours,
No tuition or enrichment. My mum was a teacher too and
she did not teach me at all. I was on my own.
But I turn out fine.
But sadly, this is not the case now.
More resources are available,
but questions are ridiculously difficult.
Some of my child's p3 maths paper questions
are found in a p5 test paper of another school.
It was not taught, but they are expected to know?
No wonder she can't do, only those in p3 who are
learning p5 stuff will know.
But if I do not step in and help, my child would be struggling and
failing, and feeling so bad about herself.
I'm not blessed with a smart kid who can figure things out herself.
So I have to step in.
I pity the kids these days.
I have spoken to a few teachers with kids around my DS (P2) age. Their concerns about our education system are similar to other parents.
100% think our primary school kids’ childhood are sacrificed in our current education system.
91% think primary school maths is a vicious circle.
88% think unabridged PSLE past years' papers help to reduce our kids' stress and workload.
But the total number of people who have voted so far is quite small. Is the majority feeling the same way too?
To all parents, please vote by visiting the following links.
http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35406
http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35402
http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35434
:thankyou: -
Chenonceau:
So the expectation is that every parent must all learn the content in primary school so we can teach our kids? In that case, what is the school for?Laura02:
I agreed that learning the model method is quite challenging, but how can we expect our kids to master the model method, if we ourselves give up on trying to learn it. What sort of message are we giving our kids if we say to them \" Ah girl or Ah boy, mummy and daddy don't understand your maths, but die-die you must not only learn it, but must also score 100% for Maths.\" it isn't fair to them.
You actually KNOW parents who don't bother to help their kids... who don't bother to gve their kids tuition AND still expect their kids to score 100? Then who is funding the billion dollar tuition industry?
And if your child fails Math, you will look at him and say... \"It's ok. Fail, is fail lor... you're just not capable. I am not giving you tuition nor extra help. Go ask your school.\"
:goodpost: -
extracted from blinkymummy.blogspot.com
blogger writes about it here
RE: Standards are unrealistic
\"If so many pupils require tuition, it means our education system has failed in its basic goal of imparting the correct skill sets.
My wife, a university honours graduate, quit her job to coach the children at home, but is herself exasperated at the standards required of pupils today.
I have yet to observe any beneficial effects of pushing children so hard in primary school, apart from high stress levels and sapping of intellectual curiosity.
Besides removing the joy in learning, another side effect of today's education system is that my children hardly have time to enjoy childhood.
They have less time to play outdoors, to read their favourite books (which is a great way to improve one's English), to explore new hobbies or to learn about the world around them - all because of so much homework.\"
It's intriguing to see so many adults getting upset over these P5/P6 maths questions.
(Check out the number of reposting of and comments on the above-mentioned letter to the forum!!)
(A) Misunderstanding the National Examination System
The point of the national exams is, obviously and if you haven't already figured out by adulthood, to segregate people into different grades (social/intelligence tagging).
To achieve that, the exams will have to include questions which CANNOT be solved by most people. What's the point of only setting questions which can be solved by EVERYONE or even by most people?! DUH?! Now that's certainly being 'unrealistic'.
If the public education system only stops at teaching what's required for most people to get a job, then the maths syllabus need only include addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.
But surely stopping at this level will limit the horizon of one's mind, right?
Don't you wanna expand your (or your child's) mind by learning about complex mathematical concepts?
How can one say that learning such concepts limits one's creativity?
Learning such concepts is in fact the way that one gets introduced to extreme creativity!! DUH?!!
The current education system is nothing more than a super stringent set of training for the brain. Just like a super 'siong' training for one's muscles... for say a national 'brain' sport.
If you prefer for your kid 'to have a childhood' and as such minimise time/effort spent on the drills, training, pain, failure etc, then by all means allow your kid go wild at the playground, watch TV, play games on the iPad, dress up as a princess Kpop star coz that his hobby etc, right after he's learnt his ABCs and 123s.
But remember, while your kid is 'having his childhood', someone else's kid, with the aptitude and is willing to put in the hard work, has moved ahead. With all that training and practice, he is getting really good at this 'brain sport'. His 'head muscle', i.e. the brain, has become more familiar with the drills, the different possible scenarios, the different level of challenges, and have developed the stamina to withstand a 2 or 3-hour examination and even a series of 2-hour exams over a few weeks.
This 'poor childhood-less kid' will 'make it to the national team', while your kid, who may have learnt the basics of how to dribble the ball or how to swing a racket, will find it difficult to excel at this 'brain sport', and perhaps cannot even finish his exam questions on time.
(B) You (the tertiary-educated adult parent) can't solve it, doesn't mean other people's 11-year-olds can't
Rather than thinking that 'current standards are unrealistic'... Perhaps these complaining adults (many who have made it to university) ought to realise that maybe... just maybe... the standard of (P5/P6 Maths) exam questions they were used to was in fact... too 'accessible', i.e. too low.
You got lucky and made it through the hoops back in the 70s and 80s when you were a kid, doesn't mean your kid is gonna be as lucky too.
(I'm really quite surprised that most people (e.g. my peers) do not realise how lucky they were, and not because we are 'sooooooo clever' to make it to a SAP school and university.)
Times change. Population profile changes. The hoops change too.
There are many many parents out there who are willing to invest dollars and hours of grilling, tuition, supplementary classes etc in/for their kids to get that 'A'.
And there are more and more kids with 'all As', not to mention their impressive 'portfolios of CCAs, intellectual pursuits/achievements, community work, internships/attachments' to ensure that they have an edge over their 'all As' peers.
Grades, wages, social status etc.
It's all relative, isn't it?
Just have to work harder and harder.
Actually, I'm just glad that we ain't South Korea or Taiwan or PRC.
Their national exams, and the attendant competition amidst a much larger population, are way more grueling and unforgiving than ours.
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