Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)
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Chenonceau:
Regarding class size, of course it would benefit all if class size is reduced. But with that number of students in class, our school fees would definitely have to go up, or a significant amount of the budget, in the expense of others, would have to go to education. In some countries, class size in private schools are around that, and parents pay thousands of dollars to get their children into these schools. Already in our independent IP/IB schools with class size of about 20-25, schools fees are really expensive, as compared to normal government schools. There are also many other things to consider, the no. and size of the schools to be built (hopefully we do not build and close down after a few years due to insufficient intake), the no. of teachers that needed to be hired (do we want more foreigners to fill in the gaps?), the population trend etc etc. Taking everything into consideration, I'm not so sure whether it's sustainable.
Okay. Reduce class size to 15-20.BeContented:
Potential....With a class size of 40, do you expect schools to have the ability to groom ALL kids to their potential?
Someone told me some schools in China have about 60 children in a class. If they are able to maintain discipline and students learn in that kind of environment, we are already very lucky as compared to them.
In fact, I know of some schools that already have 2 form teachers per class to support each other. With the right kind of support and no unnecessary admin and committee work, I'm sure teachers should be able to dedicate their time to the students, teaching, knowing and inspiring them. -
Edureach:
I agree that there are both good and average teachers in every school. I've got a friend whose son managed to get into one of those popular, branded schools. Unfortunately, he got some unconcerned and unmotivated teachers during some of his primary school years, and that affected him a lot.All primary school teachers are qualified. The most popular schools do not have a monopoly of teaching talents. You will find good and average teachers in every school.
The choice and opportunities are ours to develop our kids to realise their full potential. No point blaming the schools on this occassion.
Just treat it as an opportunity to develop and strengthen our kids for future challenges.
God bless.
Do we blame the school for the son's problem? Well, some would say hey, that's a good school, and all students are given excellent materials to study, we should not blame the school!
When I heard my friend's story, I was sadden that she did not realise what was happening, and hence, did not feedback to the school. When eventually she found out what was the problem, it was a tad too late. That's why I encourage us all to really know and communicate with our children well, and to have a good relationship and have open communication with your child's teachers. They are there to help, not sabotage your child. Remember, their school's PSLE result is at stake. The school also want your children to do well, and in trying to do so, may have employed the wrong strategy. -
Chenonceau:
Yes... in the new normal, parents are good parents only when they hunker down and teach (or source for materials) in place of the schools. Some may find this acceptable. I do not.
That's the correct attitude!Edureach:
[quote=\"Mychildren\"]<As parents, we strive the best for our kids. We fill the gap by scourcing for external materials beyond schools' materials to position our kids.> by Edureach
That's what I'm doing now.
Blessed are your kids to hve a parent like you.
MOE should just close down schools and run an SSATs equivalent testing centre to administer the common exam. Then, parents will just hire tutors or homeschool... or send to TLL. If parents have to do this in place of schools, then what are schools for.[/quote]Yes, indeed, what are schools for if all they need to do is to ensure everyone have access to the same resources, and test students even before teaching them the necessary. If teachers are not doing their job, please do not just keep quiet. Feedback to them the problem, give constructive criticism and perhaps suggest alternatives and solutions. This is your child, help the school to help your child, and many others who may also encounter the same problems as your child. The school will be grateful to you. -
Strparent:
This is a good example of how a seemingly difficult question can be solved easily by students who are really talented in maths. Maths is the only subject that is possible to score full marks, and everybody is aiming for that, which stresses everyone. If the maths paper is set in such a way that everyone scores 100, than it doesn't make much sense to even have that exam at all.
EduReach, seanwife,sean wife:
Think this is the answer to part 2. I also got the same answer...my method is to divide the distance between town a and b into 5 parts.... Actually part and b can be solved in the same way right, except starting time and time taken is different...
thanks for making the solution so freaking simple. the funny thing is, the teacher gave them a correction solution slightly differently, instead of this clear simple-to-understand model solution.
1min
A --> 1/30 km
E --> 1/45 km
} 1/18 km
18/1 = 18mins
a) 2.20pm ------> 2.38pm ANS.
and so on for (b)
:scratchhead: :scratchhead:wonderm:
Wonderm,This is a very interesting question. If one were to use algebra (Sec level maths) to solve, it is actually much more lengthy and less elegant than using model method.
it challenges those who are good in maths, and really shows how a seemingly difficult or impossible question can be very easily solved by drawing a simple model. If we expect the teacher to have given similar questions in class before the test, it really becomes pointless and makes learning maths much more painful as the children would think they need to remember the methods for all different kinds of questions.
thank you for the enlightened statements.
I admit - I have always been an opposition of the models method. Absolutely hate it, because I keep telling my kids that they do not use this anymore in sec sch, so for them, I would tell them to use algebra since P5.
and hence this question stumped me, becoz I tried to make a direct question complicated ! :oops: After seeing how simple Edureach explained the solution, I have been humbled by models today. :gloomy:
DS never had this issue, because so far, algebra solves most questions quicker for him during P5/P6. His teachers accepted it, but DD teacher always argued that she cannot use algebra, preferably models and units.
Thanks again all.
Having 1 or 2 challenging questions can really sieve out those who are naturally talented in maths, and if that's where their talent lies, than so be it. As everyone can see, to solve this question, we just need to understand a few fundamental concepts and principal, and the school would have probably taught the concept. Those who are good will be able to see thru and apply. It's not possible and unrealistic to expect students to be exposed to ALL the variations of questions with regards to the application of the concepts. Algebra is very useful, but may not be the best method. We think the question is difficult because we have been trained and boxed in, unable to think out of the box. Sometimes using algebra is more cumbersome than using simple model and logic.
Why is NYPS, or top schools papers difficult? Is it because the teachers have exposed the students to everything in the paper? I don't think so. But I guess the teachers expect the students to have been exposed to similar type questions in their tuition and enrichment classes, and if they ONLY set 1 -2 challenging questions, nearly the whole school would be scoring 100. Hence, their whole paper is full of challenging questions. If our children look at the paper, they'll faint. :shock: The paper caters to THEIR students overall standard (which is already high even before P1), and that is not representative of PSLE standard. Neighbourhood schools who disregard the ability of their own student intake and follow NYPS style of setting paper is killing themselves, and demoralising their students in the process.
Teachers teach according to the students' ability, and if they teach and test properly, students of high ability can easily be identified. These students should then be stretched by exposing them to more challenging stuff. As mentioned before, my children's primary school tests/exams have been quite balanced, more similar to PSLE style (I guess the teachers have marked PSLE papers before and would have probably seen pass years' paper to know what's required). -
sunflower:
Kekeke...I don't think so. I hear of GEP students in NYPS, and for that matter, many other students in so called branded schools taking enrichment and tuition too. Some maybe, but I would think majority having that score is not due ONLY to the school's teaching.[/quote]I am sure it isn't just due to school's teaching. There is a measure of student effort in the equation. Nonetheless, this 40% compared to another school's 2% says something about the school. It cannot all be students.
Are we sure that this 40% of NYPS who scores above 25X is the result of school's teaching ONLY and nothing esle? :scratchhead:chamonix:
[quote] 40% of NYPS scores above 25X. This is because the school tests hard and teaches a lot. This is school specific too I would imagine. School specificity is a poor excuse for the variance in quality delivered by across schools in Singapore wherein...
Well, I think why 40% of NYPS scores above 25X is because the parents (probably more than 70% of them) who got their children into this school are already kiasu themselves, and most probably would have given their children lots of enrichment/tuition before their children start P1. The school has no choice but to adjust and teach according to the majority students' ability, that's why the perceived high standard. -
Why are we so stressed up? Is it because we aim high and expect our children to get into one of those elite schools? I think our children should try their best, but not in the expense of their childhood. Let them take the lead, according to each of their own capabilities and talents (may or may not be in the academic arena). I've heard of late bloomers (who failed on several occasions in primary school's exams/tests) but who got 6A1s in a neighbourhood secondary school and got into his dream JC. That poor chap had tuitions after tuitions, trying to keep up with the primary school's high standards, but became the top scorer in the \"O\" levels of that secondary school, and continue to top in JC.
There is no one perfect education system, just like there is no ONE perfect government/political party. It is how we, the people, make the best out of it. Something to ponder: Finland's education system has been considered as one of the world's best by many, but look at their citizen's suicide rate, which is also one of the world's highest (within top 10).
http://www.fathersforlife.org/health/who_suicide_rates.htm
http://www.aneki.com/suicide.html -
sunflower:
The system cannot ensure good teachers in every class. Traditionally, this weakness in the system was palliated by better textbooks... allowing students with poor teachers to still get by without parent involvement. Now, the system holds NO redundancy. If you have a poor teacher, then your only solution is tuition.
Yes, indeed, what are schools for if all they need to do is to ensure everyone have access to the same resources, and test students even before teaching them the necessary. If teachers are not doing their job, please do not just keep quiet. Feedback to them the problem, give constructive criticism and perhaps suggest alternatives and solutions. This is your child, help the school to help your child, and many others who may also encounter the same problems as your child. The school will be grateful to you.
Parents should not be expected to help train MOE's teachers. More often than not, feedback only opens our children to Teacher vengefulness. Nothing happens. Certain schools still go ahead to stream kids in P1 despite vigorous parent feedback.
If MOE cannot control its schools and ensure minimum quality, what is MOE for? -
sunflower:
Acknowledging that one is not perfect is not an excuse for not improving obvious flaws. Small classes unable to cope with a skills heavy syllabus. Lousy textbooks. School that over compete with each other. We don't need to look to Finland. We need only listen to parents.
There is no one perfect education system, just like there is no ONE perfect government/political party. It is how we, the people, make the best out of it. Something to ponder: Finland's education system has been considered as one of the world's best by many, but look at their citizen's suicide rate, which is also one of the world's highest (within top 10). -
Chenonceau:
Hi Chenonceau, not sure whether you've read pg 32 of my response in blue, perhaps you'll get a better flow of ideas from there.
The system cannot ensure good teachers in every class. Traditionally, this weakness in the system was palliated by better textbooks... allowing students with poor teachers to still get by without parent involvement. Now, the system holds NO redundancy. If you have a poor teacher, then your only solution is tuition.sunflower:
Yes, indeed, what are schools for if all they need to do is to ensure everyone have access to the same resources, and test students even before teaching them the necessary. If teachers are not doing their job, please do not just keep quiet. Feedback to them the problem, give constructive criticism and perhaps suggest alternatives and solutions. This is your child, help the school to help your child, and many others who may also encounter the same problems as your child. The school will be grateful to you.
Parents should not be expected to help train MOE's teachers. More often than not, feedback only opens our children to Teacher vengefulness. Nothing happens. Certain schools still go ahead to stream kids in P1 despite vigorous parent feedback.
If MOE cannot control its schools and ensure minimum quality, what is MOE for? -
sunflower:
It still means that a child of similar intellect in another school does not get the same exposure unless through parent effort and tuition. No surprise then that tuition or parent help is necessary?
Why is NYPS, or top schools papers difficult? Is it because the teachers have exposed the students to everything in the paper? I don't think so. But I guess the teachers expect the students to have been exposed to similar type questions in their tuition and enrichment classes, and if they ONLY set 1 -2 challenging questions, nearly the whole school would be scoring 100. Hence, their whole paper is full of challenging questions. If our children look at the paper, they'll faint. :shock: The paper caters to THEIR students overall standard (which is already high even before P1), and that is not representative of PSLE standard. Neighbourhood schools who disregard the ability of their own student intake and follow NYPS style of setting paper is killing themselves, and demoralising their students in the process.
Teachers teach according to the students' ability, and if they teach and test properly, students of high ability can easily be identified. These students should then be stretched by exposing them to more challenging stuff. As mentioned before, my children's primary school tests/exams have been quite balanced, more similar to PSLE style (I guess the teachers have marked PSLE papers before and would have probably seen pass years' paper to know what's required).
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