Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)
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Strparent:
This is a good example of how a seemingly difficult question can be solved easily by students who are really talented in maths. Maths is the only subject that is possible to score full marks, and everybody is aiming for that, which stresses everyone. If the maths paper is set in such a way that everyone scores 100, than it doesn't make much sense to even have that exam at all.
EduReach, seanwife,sean wife:
Think this is the answer to part 2. I also got the same answer...my method is to divide the distance between town a and b into 5 parts.... Actually part and b can be solved in the same way right, except starting time and time taken is different...
thanks for making the solution so freaking simple. the funny thing is, the teacher gave them a correction solution slightly differently, instead of this clear simple-to-understand model solution.
1min
A --> 1/30 km
E --> 1/45 km
} 1/18 km
18/1 = 18mins
a) 2.20pm ------> 2.38pm ANS.
and so on for (b)
:scratchhead: :scratchhead:wonderm:
Wonderm,This is a very interesting question. If one were to use algebra (Sec level maths) to solve, it is actually much more lengthy and less elegant than using model method.
it challenges those who are good in maths, and really shows how a seemingly difficult or impossible question can be very easily solved by drawing a simple model. If we expect the teacher to have given similar questions in class before the test, it really becomes pointless and makes learning maths much more painful as the children would think they need to remember the methods for all different kinds of questions.
thank you for the enlightened statements.
I admit - I have always been an opposition of the models method. Absolutely hate it, because I keep telling my kids that they do not use this anymore in sec sch, so for them, I would tell them to use algebra since P5.
and hence this question stumped me, becoz I tried to make a direct question complicated ! :oops: After seeing how simple Edureach explained the solution, I have been humbled by models today. :gloomy:
DS never had this issue, because so far, algebra solves most questions quicker for him during P5/P6. His teachers accepted it, but DD teacher always argued that she cannot use algebra, preferably models and units.
Thanks again all.
Having 1 or 2 challenging questions can really sieve out those who are naturally talented in maths, and if that's where their talent lies, than so be it. As everyone can see, to solve this question, we just need to understand a few fundamental concepts and principal, and the school would have probably taught the concept. Those who are good will be able to see thru and apply. It's not possible and unrealistic to expect students to be exposed to ALL the variations of questions with regards to the application of the concepts. Algebra is very useful, but may not be the best method. We think the question is difficult because we have been trained and boxed in, unable to think out of the box. Sometimes using algebra is more cumbersome than using simple model and logic.
Why is NYPS, or top schools papers difficult? Is it because the teachers have exposed the students to everything in the paper? I don't think so. But I guess the teachers expect the students to have been exposed to similar type questions in their tuition and enrichment classes, and if they ONLY set 1 -2 challenging questions, nearly the whole school would be scoring 100. Hence, their whole paper is full of challenging questions. If our children look at the paper, they'll faint. :shock: The paper caters to THEIR students overall standard (which is already high even before P1), and that is not representative of PSLE standard. Neighbourhood schools who disregard the ability of their own student intake and follow NYPS style of setting paper is killing themselves, and demoralising their students in the process.
Teachers teach according to the students' ability, and if they teach and test properly, students of high ability can easily be identified. These students should then be stretched by exposing them to more challenging stuff. As mentioned before, my children's primary school tests/exams have been quite balanced, more similar to PSLE style (I guess the teachers have marked PSLE papers before and would have probably seen pass years' paper to know what's required). -
sunflower:
Kekeke...I don't think so. I hear of GEP students in NYPS, and for that matter, many other students in so called branded schools taking enrichment and tuition too. Some maybe, but I would think majority having that score is not due ONLY to the school's teaching.[/quote]I am sure it isn't just due to school's teaching. There is a measure of student effort in the equation. Nonetheless, this 40% compared to another school's 2% says something about the school. It cannot all be students.
Are we sure that this 40% of NYPS who scores above 25X is the result of school's teaching ONLY and nothing esle? :scratchhead:chamonix:
[quote] 40% of NYPS scores above 25X. This is because the school tests hard and teaches a lot. This is school specific too I would imagine. School specificity is a poor excuse for the variance in quality delivered by across schools in Singapore wherein...
Well, I think why 40% of NYPS scores above 25X is because the parents (probably more than 70% of them) who got their children into this school are already kiasu themselves, and most probably would have given their children lots of enrichment/tuition before their children start P1. The school has no choice but to adjust and teach according to the majority students' ability, that's why the perceived high standard. -
Why are we so stressed up? Is it because we aim high and expect our children to get into one of those elite schools? I think our children should try their best, but not in the expense of their childhood. Let them take the lead, according to each of their own capabilities and talents (may or may not be in the academic arena). I've heard of late bloomers (who failed on several occasions in primary school's exams/tests) but who got 6A1s in a neighbourhood secondary school and got into his dream JC. That poor chap had tuitions after tuitions, trying to keep up with the primary school's high standards, but became the top scorer in the \"O\" levels of that secondary school, and continue to top in JC.
There is no one perfect education system, just like there is no ONE perfect government/political party. It is how we, the people, make the best out of it. Something to ponder: Finland's education system has been considered as one of the world's best by many, but look at their citizen's suicide rate, which is also one of the world's highest (within top 10).
http://www.fathersforlife.org/health/who_suicide_rates.htm
http://www.aneki.com/suicide.html -
sunflower:
The system cannot ensure good teachers in every class. Traditionally, this weakness in the system was palliated by better textbooks... allowing students with poor teachers to still get by without parent involvement. Now, the system holds NO redundancy. If you have a poor teacher, then your only solution is tuition.
Yes, indeed, what are schools for if all they need to do is to ensure everyone have access to the same resources, and test students even before teaching them the necessary. If teachers are not doing their job, please do not just keep quiet. Feedback to them the problem, give constructive criticism and perhaps suggest alternatives and solutions. This is your child, help the school to help your child, and many others who may also encounter the same problems as your child. The school will be grateful to you.
Parents should not be expected to help train MOE's teachers. More often than not, feedback only opens our children to Teacher vengefulness. Nothing happens. Certain schools still go ahead to stream kids in P1 despite vigorous parent feedback.
If MOE cannot control its schools and ensure minimum quality, what is MOE for? -
sunflower:
Acknowledging that one is not perfect is not an excuse for not improving obvious flaws. Small classes unable to cope with a skills heavy syllabus. Lousy textbooks. School that over compete with each other. We don't need to look to Finland. We need only listen to parents.
There is no one perfect education system, just like there is no ONE perfect government/political party. It is how we, the people, make the best out of it. Something to ponder: Finland's education system has been considered as one of the world's best by many, but look at their citizen's suicide rate, which is also one of the world's highest (within top 10). -
Chenonceau:
Hi Chenonceau, not sure whether you've read pg 32 of my response in blue, perhaps you'll get a better flow of ideas from there.
The system cannot ensure good teachers in every class. Traditionally, this weakness in the system was palliated by better textbooks... allowing students with poor teachers to still get by without parent involvement. Now, the system holds NO redundancy. If you have a poor teacher, then your only solution is tuition.sunflower:
Yes, indeed, what are schools for if all they need to do is to ensure everyone have access to the same resources, and test students even before teaching them the necessary. If teachers are not doing their job, please do not just keep quiet. Feedback to them the problem, give constructive criticism and perhaps suggest alternatives and solutions. This is your child, help the school to help your child, and many others who may also encounter the same problems as your child. The school will be grateful to you.
Parents should not be expected to help train MOE's teachers. More often than not, feedback only opens our children to Teacher vengefulness. Nothing happens. Certain schools still go ahead to stream kids in P1 despite vigorous parent feedback.
If MOE cannot control its schools and ensure minimum quality, what is MOE for? -
sunflower:
It still means that a child of similar intellect in another school does not get the same exposure unless through parent effort and tuition. No surprise then that tuition or parent help is necessary?
Why is NYPS, or top schools papers difficult? Is it because the teachers have exposed the students to everything in the paper? I don't think so. But I guess the teachers expect the students to have been exposed to similar type questions in their tuition and enrichment classes, and if they ONLY set 1 -2 challenging questions, nearly the whole school would be scoring 100. Hence, their whole paper is full of challenging questions. If our children look at the paper, they'll faint. :shock: The paper caters to THEIR students overall standard (which is already high even before P1), and that is not representative of PSLE standard. Neighbourhood schools who disregard the ability of their own student intake and follow NYPS style of setting paper is killing themselves, and demoralising their students in the process.
Teachers teach according to the students' ability, and if they teach and test properly, students of high ability can easily be identified. These students should then be stretched by exposing them to more challenging stuff. As mentioned before, my children's primary school tests/exams have been quite balanced, more similar to PSLE style (I guess the teachers have marked PSLE papers before and would have probably seen pass years' paper to know what's required). -
sunflower:
Really? NYPS parents are the key drivers of student performance? So it too tests beyond what it teaches? What about the poor kid in NYPS who has no access to such tuition?
Well, I think why 40% of NYPS scores above 25X is because the parents (probably more than 70% of them) who got their children into this school are already kiasu themselves, and most probably would have given their children lots of enrichment/tuition before their children start P1. The school has no choice but to adjust and teach according to the majority students' ability, that's why the perceived high standard.
I find it hard to believe that NYPS parents are more kiasu than parents in other schools.sunflower:
Oh good! Then DO that survey. Don't assume it's a minority.Err...I'm not sure about the majority part. It may seemed like the majority when we read complaints in internet forums, which may be many individuals from the same handful of schools? Unless we do a national survey and say out of the 180 primary schools, 150 of them are doing (a) and (b) above. If not, we can't be absolutely sure and make assumptions.
sunflower:
This is still reminiscent of Chairman Mao's Great Leap Forward where he tried to stimulate industrialization by encouraging people to develop industry in their backyards. Without the economies of scale, industry standards were low and varied from backyard to backyard. Many of these backyard industries had low standards and few were stellar.Actually, I do believe schools are given the resources and budget to acquire materials suitable for their students' population. If I'm not wrong, school zone/clusters do share resources. It IS the teacher's duty to write (each subject department can form teams to do that) and provide suitable materials, which cater to the needs of their students. I think schools should release teachers of all those admin and committee work, so they have time to just focus on teaching and their professional development, creating useful teaching materials and providing differential learning experience for their students.
Sounds like the quality delivered by Singapore schools in the present day.sunflower:
That they're good teachers (who can write) who left is an indictment of the system in itself. However, how is their ability to teach and the fact that they dislike politics even relevant to whether they are able to provide a perspective on the quality of teaching across a wide range of schools?I didn't manage to read the links above. My take would be many of these are good teachers, passionate about teaching, but hated the admin and committee work, as well as the politics in schools. So they come out and do what they love most - teaching. In fact, I would assume some of them would have made use of the notes/materials which they have created for their school students and modify further to cater to their students whom they tutor.
sunflower:
There should be students of this calibre in every school. If they have no access to material like Onsponge AND happen to have poor teachers, then how?The book may work well for certain type of students like your son and the GEP child, who are smart, good at reasoning and can study on their own. Weaker students find the so many breakdown of methods confusing and some resort to memorising, which is not how maths should be learnt.
sunflower:
I did suggest this to MOE sometime back. It remains to be seen if MOE is deaf. This would already help greatly.What I can think of (not sure whether it's already been provided for or not) is a centralised online database/forum where teachers can contribute and have access to teaching materials created by teachers and posted in the MOE teachers portal/forum (create such forum if there isn't one at the moment). All teachers would have the password to access such sharing of info, where they can comment, share resources, post questions and basically help each other. It is up to the teachers' discretion whether to use/modify or give out the notes based on their students needs. [/color]
sunflower:
I love this last bit. :love: You are right. Notes are not enough. I ask only for notes as a beggar would beg for scraps for hungry children. If MOE can implement all that you suggest by 2016, PAP has my vote.It works for your child, and maybe many others who are equally smart, because they can understand and study on their own. But not all children are like yours. If I throw my DD1 the stuff, she wouldn't have understood them. Teachers still need to teach, it is their job, more so with the \"Teach Less Learn More\", not the tuition centres or enrichment centres. If they don't, are unable to know their students well enough to provide differential teaching/learning, test what they don't teach (expecting tuition centres to have already covered the topics), they fail as teachers as the school fails in providing support/healthy and strong infrastructure for teachers. We should then not just let this phenomenon carry on. School principals / MOE should do something to address the inadequacies of the teachers/schools. More should be done, and it's not just by simply providing notes, but the whole framework, mindset and priorities of the specific schools and teachers should change.
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sunflower:
Yup! I finally saw it. Thanks for this note.
Hi Chenonceau, not sure whether you've read pg 32 of my response in blue, perhaps you'll get a better flow of ideas from there. -
sunflower:
Why are we so stressed up? Is it because we aim high and expect our children to get into one of those elite schools? I think our children should try their best, but not in the expense of their childhood. Let them take the lead, according to each of their own capabilities and talents (may or may not be in the academic arena). I've heard of late bloomers (who failed on several occasions in primary school's exams/tests) but who got 6A1s in a neighbourhood secondary school and got into his dream JC. That poor chap had tuitions after tuitions, trying to keep up with the primary school's high standards, but became the top scorer in the \"O\" levels of that secondary school, and continue to top in JC.
There is no one perfect education system, just like there is no ONE perfect government/political party. It is how we, the people, make the best out of it. Something to ponder: Finland's education system has been considered as one of the world's best by many, but look at their citizen's suicide rate, which is also one of the world's highest (within top 10).
http://www.fathersforlife.org/health/who_suicide_rates.htm
http://www.aneki.com/suicide.html
Yes, I do see one real example of a kid who did so so for his PSLE, got in a so so secondary school but when he is in Poly, he flied high there. Now, in university in Singapore. Kind of late bloomer like sunflower had mentioned.
Some may say,\"No choice la, my child is like that, I resign myself to fate!\" Let him be like that la, cannot do anything to improve since he already try his best.\"
Or some may say,\"I'll do whatever that I can and help this child. He can improve with motivation and some guidance. Let me see in which area I can start with in guiding him.\"
It does not mean that the latter one will spoon feed the child. May be some form of encouragement and some guidance. I also don't see that by encouraging and guiding will kill his childhood. Of course, work need to be balance with play too. Do understand that there is also play in work too.
If you just let them take the lead, children are still children, they'll choose to play or turn on the TV to watch cartoon or play PC games the whole day....... at this age.
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