Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)
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cherryc:
If you believe that this does not equate to real intelligence, and to real life performance in the workplace (like I do), then you have absolutely nothing to worry about.Totally agree with you, tutormom. I don't know in future how many of these tuitioned artificial intelligent people will be our country leader , politicians , bankers , lawyers or doctors. And the truly brainy ones missing out the good programs that will bring our country to greater heights.
It is artificial and it is fake, it will not stand the true tests of character and intelligence, and therefore you have nothing to worry about at all. -
3Boys:
Of all you wrote... I only agree with this. It could well be that employers will steer clear of the top school graduates in future because they know such grads expect a lotta help at work.
It is artificial and it is fake, it will not stand the true tests of character and intelligence, and therefore you have nothing to worry about at all. -
Chenonceau:
If one is willing to do 80 or more hours of volunteering just to get into phase 2B, or getting the child from one end of Singapore to the other end (where the school is located), or is willing to spend millions to get a property close to the school, and all these do not translate into more kiasu, I do not know what is.
Really? NYPS parents are the key drivers of student performance? So it too tests beyond what it teaches? What about the poor kid in NYPS who has no access to such tuition?sunflower:
Well, I think why 40% of NYPS scores above 25X is because the parents (probably more than 70% of them) who got their children into this school are already kiasu themselves, and most probably would have given their children lots of enrichment/tuition before their children start P1. The school has no choice but to adjust and teach according to the majority students' ability, that's why the perceived high standard.
I find it hard to believe that NYPS parents are more kiasu than parents in other schools.
We could have registered our child in phase 2A of a branded school at the other end of Singapore, but decided to just enroll her in a neighbourhood school nearby. Suppose I'm much less kiasu bah? :?Chenonceau:
Don't think I have the time or contacts to do such a survey. Anyone with the relevant resources can go ahead. Anyway, I'm not assuming it's the minority either. You do get a general feel from the Parents' Networking Group thread. The most active ones are generally from those more popular schools. The 2 neighbourhood schools that my children attend are in fact, quite quiet in internet forums.
Oh good! Then DO that survey. Don't assume it's a minority.sunflower:
Err...I'm not sure about the majority part. It may seemed like the majority when we read complaints in internet forums, which may be many individuals from the same handful of schools? Unless we do a national survey and say out of the 180 primary schools, 150 of them are doing (a) and (b) above. If not, we can't be absolutely sure and make assumptions.
Chenonceau:
Yes, quality of teaching differs across schools, and even within good schools, not all teachers teach equally well, or are equally responsible. In fact, some teachers in branded schools do not really teach, assuming students already know the stuff from tuition/enrichment, or assuming students are smart enough to find info or read up themselves ahead of time.
That they're good teachers (who can write) who left is an indictment of the system in itself. However, how is their ability to teach and the fact that they dislike politics even relevant to whether they are able to provide a perspective on the quality of teaching across a wide range of schools?sunflower:
I didn't manage to read the links above. My take would be many of these are good teachers, passionate about teaching, but hated the admin and committee work, as well as the politics in schools. So they come out and do what they love most - teaching. In fact, I would assume some of them would have made use of the notes/materials which they have created for their school students and modify further to cater to their students whom they tutor.
Schools are operated by humans, not machines. It’s not possible to expect the same standard across all schools. MOE can give all schools the same hardware, but the software is largely determined by human factors, which include principals, teachers, type of students and parents. Some schools, like the one my DD2 is attending, takes in children from the neighbouhood, who are generally not well off. In fact, DD2 was telling me that only 3 raised up their hands when teacher asked who has tuition. However, the teachers in her school work hard to help every child, providing support to the weaker students. They don't push the kids away and ask them to go tuition, but instead round them up into small group teaching, and advise parents on how to give their childen the necessary support.Chenonceau:
This is pretty bad, wonder what school is that, or is this an isolated case? That's why it's important to know your child's potential, instead of relying on the school's results to determine/label your child. Quoting from Shop & Save: Mothers know best!
There should be students of this calibre in every school. If they have no access to material like Onsponge AND happen to have poor teachers, then how?sunflower:
The book may work well for certain type of students like your son and the GEP child, who are smart, good at reasoning and can study on their own. Weaker students find the so many breakdown of methods confusing and some resort to memorising, which is not how maths should be learnt.
My own experience with my DD1: None of her school teachers discover her talent in a certain area, in fact, she quite consistently got a \"B\" for that subject. However, I was quite confident of her inert ability and supported her in that area. The final outcome proved me right. Oh, don't get me wrong, it was not tuition or teaching from me. What I did was appropriate guidance and correct course of action.
Why would we even allow the school to make us believe that our child is poor in a particular subject, especially if the school gives exams that are ridiculously difficult with unrealistically high standard? It is not even a true reflection of the actual capacity of the child in a national exam. -
Chenonceau:
I am sure it isn't just due to school's teaching. There is a measure of student effort in the equation. Nonetheless, this 40% compared to another school's 2% says something about the school. It cannot all be students.[/quote]NYPS has about 3 or 4? GEP classes. I would think that they form quite a significant amount of that 40% who score above 25X. Already some of the brightest from all over Singapore (whether poor or rich) congregegate in this school, and other GEP schools as well.
Are we sure that this 40% of NYPS who scores above 25X is the result of school's teaching ONLY and nothing esle? :scratchhead:chamonix:
[quote] 40% of NYPS scores above 25X. This is because the school tests hard and teaches a lot. This is school specific too I would imagine. School specificity is a poor excuse for the variance in quality delivered by across schools in Singapore wherein...
Well, I think why 40% of NYPS scores above 25X is because the parents (probably more than 70% of them) who got their children into this school are already kiasu themselves, and most probably would have given their children lots of enrichment/tuition before their children start P1. The school has no choice but to adjust and teach according to the majority students' ability, that's why the perceived high standard. -
sunflower:
(1) Better textbooks and a national database (like you suggested) will help the weaker teachers and raise standards overall.
Schools are operated by humans, not machines. It’s not possible to expect the same standard across all schools. MOE can give all schools the same hardware, but the software is largely determined by human factors, which include principals, teachers, type of students and parents. Some schools, like the one my DD2 is attending, takes in children from the neighbouhood, who are generally not well off. In fact, DD2 was telling me that only 3 raised up their hands when teacher asked who has tuition. However, the teachers in her school work hard to help every child, providing support to the weaker students. They don't push the kids away and ask them to go tuition, but instead round them up into small group teaching, and advise parents on how to give their childen the necessary support.
(2) There is no business in the world that does not depend on humans. EVEN in industries that rely heavily on robotics and equipment, the quality of service or products rely on humans. If MNCs can ensure consistency worldwide, what's so difficult about putting in processes to ensure consistency in Singapore schools? If restaurant chains (very dependent on humans) can ensure consistent quality from one end of Singapore to another... why is it impossible for schools to have a basic core consistency?
(3) Better textbooks and a national database for Teachers will help somewhat.sunflower:
:goodpost:This is pretty bad, wonder what school is that, or is this an isolated case? That's why it's important to know your child's potential, instead of relying on the school's results to determine/label your child. Quoting from Shop & Save: Mothers know best!
My own experience with my DD1: None of her school teachers discover her talent in a certain area, in fact, she quite consistently got a \"B\" for that subject. However, I was quite confident of her inert ability and supported her in that area. The final outcome proved me right. Oh, don't get me wrong, it was not tuition or teaching from me. What I did was appropriate guidance and correct course of action.
Why would we even allow the school to make us believe that our child is poor in a particular subject, especially if the school gives exams that are ridiculously difficult with unrealistically high standard? It is not even a true reflection of the actual capacity of the child in a national exam. -
Chenonceau:
Well, to overhaul our education system, there's a thing or two to learn from best practices of other countries.
Acknowledging that one is not perfect is not an excuse for not improving obvious flaws. Small classes unable to cope with a skills heavy syllabus. Lousy textbooks. School that over compete with each other. We don't need to look to Finland. We need only listen to parents.sunflower:
There is no one perfect education system, just like there is no ONE perfect government/political party. It is how we, the people, make the best out of it. Something to ponder: Finland's education system has been considered as one of the world's best by many, but look at their citizen's suicide rate, which is also one of the world's highest (within top 10). -
sunflower:
I don't dare say NYPS doesn't teach well. I won't know for sure. I do know they've great notes and very nice practice worksheets which points to an overall quality of education that is not present in my DS' school... and some other schools.
NYPS has about 3 or 4? GEP classes. I would think that they form quite a significant amount of that 40% who score above 25X. Already some of the brightest from all over Singapore (whether poor or rich) congregegate in this school, and other GEP schools as well. -
sunflower:
Well, to overhaul our education system, there's a thing or two to learn from best practices of other countries.[/quote]Yes? This is a self-evident truth to my mind. But well... did you not say that other systems also have problems... so, you still wanna learn from them? China has 60 per class. Finnish people commit suicide. So how?
Acknowledging that one is not perfect is not an excuse for not improving obvious flaws. Small classes unable to cope with a skills heavy syllabus. Lousy textbooks. School that over compete with each other. We don't need to look to Finland. We need only listen to parents.Chenonceau:
[quote=\"sunflower\"]
There is no one perfect education system, just like there is no ONE perfect government/political party. It is how we, the people, make the best out of it. Something to ponder: Finland's education system has been considered as one of the world's best by many, but look at their citizen's suicide rate, which is also one of the world's highest (within top 10).
I don't think I want an overhaul. I would like a reasoned review... not defensive press statements. I would like better textbooks and a national database for Teachers (as you suggested). I'm not sure this constitutes and overhaul. -
Chenonceau:
Chenonceau,
Of all you wrote... I only agree with this. It could well be that employers will steer clear of the top school graduates in future because they know such grads expect a lotta help at work.3Boys:
It is artificial and it is fake, it will not stand the true tests of character and intelligence, and therefore you have nothing to worry about at all.
I am completely with you on equal 'opportunity', but are you so sure that what you are proposing will really make any kind of impact at all? You have dug your heels in and made it as if it were gospel, to the point that you would oust the g'ment on account of it, but as you have seen, I frankly have serious doubts. And by agreeing with me above, to some extent you are admitting it really doesn't matter, no? Costs matter my dear, we will see how Finland fares, as their economy built on Nokia starts to suffer along with the company's fortunes. --> http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-05-17/news/31749254_1_finland-s-nokia-nokia-oyj-business-growth -
Mychildren:
I might have been misunderstood. Actually. when I suggest to let the children take the lead, it doesn't mean to let them do whatever they like whenever they want. What I mean is to REALLY know your child, recognise his/her strengths and weaknesses and support them in those area(s), (academic/asethetics/sports/creativity, etc) rather than forcing down their throat what WE want them to be, getting the outcome that we think is the best (but may not be).sunflower:
Why are we so stressed up? Is it because we aim high and expect our children to get into one of those elite schools? I think our children should try their best, but not in the expense of their childhood. Let them take the lead, according to each of their own capabilities and talents (may or may not be in the academic arena). I've heard of late bloomers (who failed on several occasions in primary school's exams/tests) but who got 6A1s in a neighbourhood secondary school and got into his dream JC. That poor chap had tuitions after tuitions, trying to keep up with the primary school's high standards, but became the top scorer in the \"O\" levels of that secondary school, and continue to top in JC.
There is no one perfect education system, just like there is no ONE perfect government/political party. It is how we, the people, make the best out of it. Something to ponder: Finland's education system has been considered as one of the world's best by many, but look at their citizen's suicide rate, which is also one of the world's highest (within top 10).
http://www.fathersforlife.org/health/who_suicide_rates.htm
http://www.aneki.com/suicide.html
Yes, I do see one real example of a kid who did so so for his PSLE, got in a so so secondary school but when he is in Poly, he flied high there. Now, in university in Singapore. Kind of late bloomer like sunflower had mentioned.
Some may say,\"No choice la, my child is like that, I resign myself to fate!\" Let him be like that la, cannot do anything to improve since he already try his best.\"
Or some may say,\"I'll do whatever that I can and help this child. He can improve with motivation and some guidance. Let me see in which area I can start with in guiding him.\"
It does not mean that the latter one will spoon feed the child. May be some form of encouragement and some guidance. I also don't see that by encouraging and guiding will kill his childhood. Of course, work need to be balance with play too. Do understand that there is also play in work too.
If you just let them take the lead, children are still children, they'll choose to play or turn on the TV to watch cartoon or play PC games the whole day....... at this age.
I'm not sure why everyone is harping on wanting to get their children into one of those elite schools lah. Is it because of face? ego? a guaranteed path to uni? a place where all elites congregate so can rub shoulders?
I could have chosen any secondary school to my liking after PSLE, but decided on an ordinary one near home. Went to one of the top JC, and eventually cross path with classmates who chose to go elite secondary schools. (Err...but I must confess lah, I'll probably choose to go to one of the IP schools now because too lazy to take \"O\" levels. Ha, ha...) But even cannot get in so what? Even Pritam Singh who studied in JJC went to NUS, and also got scholarship to study overseas.
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