Primary school maths: A vicious circle (from TODAY May 8)
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tutormum:
Its only a disadvantage if you think its a disadvantage. I wouldn't care less about NYPS bussing loads of students to a Math Olympiad. This a guarantee of success in later life? I thought there was a consensus that Finland is utopia as far as education was concerned, and if they were putting out top graduates that are world beaters despite a laissez-faire early schooling system, what do we have to fear from the NYPS production line robots, right?
My point is : Yes, it's true that the playing field is not level. Yes, the system needs fixing as majority of the students esp those from neighbourhood schools are disadvantaged. :?:
Perhaps the proponents of change are asking, why do I bother to post here, what harm does it do to myself or my children should I go along. Like it or not, we are all stakeholders. That being the case, we should not say, \"lets take it to the polls and see.\"
Fundamentally, there 2 things;
1) I am at all not convinced that solutions proposed will get to the guts of the problem, which is that students from poorer backgrounds are disadvantaged in education. This is true of Singapore and any society in the world, including Finland, and the problem is in my view, not in education per se, but societal structure in general. It does not help that Singapore's GINI is dreadful, but giving an iPad, or textbooks from top schools to a poor student who works at the coffee shop after school hours will not help him much. One does not make policy by intuition (equal textbooks/material = equal opportunity). In short, I think this effort is well intentioned but misplaced, or at least, unproven in effectiveness.
2) Any discussion of solutions without a discussion of constraints, is in my view, incomplete. If one wants to line up support or convince the powers that be of the necessity of change, that aspect cannot be ignored. Whilst one should always explore various high level options before getting bogged down in details, when one gets to the point of specific proposals (like now?), one does need to understand what is sustainable and affordable. I'm sure there are many highly qualified, but unemployed young Greeks. What good does it do our country to have the best education system in the world if we cannot balance our books and have a ruined economy?
If I may just add here my view on using polls to tyrannise politicians into bending to our will. Are politicians meant to serve the people? Clearly, yes. But they are meant to serve ALL the people, not merely an isolated constituency or vocal minority. If we all each pick one pet peeve and go to our MP and say, \"Change this, or else...\", I believe it is disrespectful to the ideals of democracy and to other voters. We would effectively have become ungovernable as a society. I am for instance, aghast at the present implementation of the law with regards to the underaged prostitute, but I accept that there are many who's opinion differ from mine on this issue, and I would never think about using that a basis to bash the government or demanding a change by with-holding my vote. Everyone will have their own tipping point on how their cast their vote, we live in a multidimensional world where government policies touch us at various levels, be it health, housing, taxation, business regulations, national security.....or education. It is but one dimension. -
3Boys:
:goodpost: :love:
Its only a disadvantage if you think its a disadvantage. I wouldn't care less about NYPS bussing loads of students to a Math Olympiad. This a guarantee of success in later life? I thought there was a consensus that Finland is utopia as far as education was concerned, and if they were putting out top graduates that are world beaters despite a laissez-faire early schooling system, what do we have to fear from the NYPS production line robots, right?tutormum:
My point is : Yes, it's true that the playing field is not level. Yes, the system needs fixing as majority of the students esp those from neighbourhood schools are disadvantaged. :?:
Perhaps the proponents of change are asking, why do I bother to post here, what harm does it do to myself or my children should I go along. Like it or not, we are all stakeholders. That being the case, we should not say, \"lets take it to the polls and see.\"
Fundamentally, there 2 things;
1) I am at all not convinced that solutions proposed will get to the guts of the problem, which is that students from poorer backgrounds are disadvantaged in education. This is true of Singapore and any society in the world, including Finland, and the problem is in my view, not in education per se, but societal structure in general. It does not help that Singapore's GINI is dreadful, but giving an iPad, or textbooks from top schools to a poor student who works at the coffee shop after school hours will not help him much. One does not make policy by intuition (equal textbooks/material = equal opportunity). In short, I think this effort is well intentioned but misplaced, or at least, unproven in effectiveness.
2) Any discussion of solutions without a discussion of constraints, is in my view, incomplete. If one wants to line up support or convince the powers that be of the necessity of change, that aspect cannot be ignored. Whilst one should always explore various high level options before getting bogged down in details, when one gets to the point of specific proposals (like now?), one does need to understand what is sustainable and affordable. I'm sure there are many highly qualified, but unemployed young Greeks. What good does it do our country to have the best education system in the world if we cannot balance our books and have a ruined economy?
If I may just add here my view on using polls to tyrannise politicians into bending to our will. Are politicians meant to serve the people? Clearly, yes. But they are meant to serve ALL the people, not merely an isolated constituency or vocal minority. If we all each pick one pet peeve and go to our MP and say, \"Change this, or else...\", I believe it is disrespectful to the ideals of democracy and to other voters. We would effectively have become ungovernable as a society. I am for instance, aghast at the present implementation of the law with regards to the underaged prostitute, but I accept that there are many who's opinion differ from mine on this issue, and I would never think about using that a basis to bash the government or demanding a change by with-holding my vote. Everyone will have their own tipping point on how their cast their vote, we live in a multidimensional world where government policies touch us at various levels, be it health, housing, taxation, business regulations, national security.....or education. It is but one dimension. -
cherryc:
If you believe that this does not equate to real intelligence, and to real life performance in the workplace (like I do), then you have absolutely nothing to worry about.Totally agree with you, tutormom. I don't know in future how many of these tuitioned artificial intelligent people will be our country leader , politicians , bankers , lawyers or doctors. And the truly brainy ones missing out the good programs that will bring our country to greater heights.
It is artificial and it is fake, it will not stand the true tests of character and intelligence, and therefore you have nothing to worry about at all. -
3Boys:
Of all you wrote... I only agree with this. It could well be that employers will steer clear of the top school graduates in future because they know such grads expect a lotta help at work.
It is artificial and it is fake, it will not stand the true tests of character and intelligence, and therefore you have nothing to worry about at all. -
Chenonceau:
If one is willing to do 80 or more hours of volunteering just to get into phase 2B, or getting the child from one end of Singapore to the other end (where the school is located), or is willing to spend millions to get a property close to the school, and all these do not translate into more kiasu, I do not know what is.
Really? NYPS parents are the key drivers of student performance? So it too tests beyond what it teaches? What about the poor kid in NYPS who has no access to such tuition?sunflower:
Well, I think why 40% of NYPS scores above 25X is because the parents (probably more than 70% of them) who got their children into this school are already kiasu themselves, and most probably would have given their children lots of enrichment/tuition before their children start P1. The school has no choice but to adjust and teach according to the majority students' ability, that's why the perceived high standard.
I find it hard to believe that NYPS parents are more kiasu than parents in other schools.
We could have registered our child in phase 2A of a branded school at the other end of Singapore, but decided to just enroll her in a neighbourhood school nearby. Suppose I'm much less kiasu bah? :?Chenonceau:
Don't think I have the time or contacts to do such a survey. Anyone with the relevant resources can go ahead. Anyway, I'm not assuming it's the minority either. You do get a general feel from the Parents' Networking Group thread. The most active ones are generally from those more popular schools. The 2 neighbourhood schools that my children attend are in fact, quite quiet in internet forums.
Oh good! Then DO that survey. Don't assume it's a minority.sunflower:
Err...I'm not sure about the majority part. It may seemed like the majority when we read complaints in internet forums, which may be many individuals from the same handful of schools? Unless we do a national survey and say out of the 180 primary schools, 150 of them are doing (a) and (b) above. If not, we can't be absolutely sure and make assumptions.
Chenonceau:
Yes, quality of teaching differs across schools, and even within good schools, not all teachers teach equally well, or are equally responsible. In fact, some teachers in branded schools do not really teach, assuming students already know the stuff from tuition/enrichment, or assuming students are smart enough to find info or read up themselves ahead of time.
That they're good teachers (who can write) who left is an indictment of the system in itself. However, how is their ability to teach and the fact that they dislike politics even relevant to whether they are able to provide a perspective on the quality of teaching across a wide range of schools?sunflower:
I didn't manage to read the links above. My take would be many of these are good teachers, passionate about teaching, but hated the admin and committee work, as well as the politics in schools. So they come out and do what they love most - teaching. In fact, I would assume some of them would have made use of the notes/materials which they have created for their school students and modify further to cater to their students whom they tutor.
Schools are operated by humans, not machines. It’s not possible to expect the same standard across all schools. MOE can give all schools the same hardware, but the software is largely determined by human factors, which include principals, teachers, type of students and parents. Some schools, like the one my DD2 is attending, takes in children from the neighbouhood, who are generally not well off. In fact, DD2 was telling me that only 3 raised up their hands when teacher asked who has tuition. However, the teachers in her school work hard to help every child, providing support to the weaker students. They don't push the kids away and ask them to go tuition, but instead round them up into small group teaching, and advise parents on how to give their childen the necessary support.Chenonceau:
This is pretty bad, wonder what school is that, or is this an isolated case? That's why it's important to know your child's potential, instead of relying on the school's results to determine/label your child. Quoting from Shop & Save: Mothers know best!
There should be students of this calibre in every school. If they have no access to material like Onsponge AND happen to have poor teachers, then how?sunflower:
The book may work well for certain type of students like your son and the GEP child, who are smart, good at reasoning and can study on their own. Weaker students find the so many breakdown of methods confusing and some resort to memorising, which is not how maths should be learnt.
My own experience with my DD1: None of her school teachers discover her talent in a certain area, in fact, she quite consistently got a \"B\" for that subject. However, I was quite confident of her inert ability and supported her in that area. The final outcome proved me right. Oh, don't get me wrong, it was not tuition or teaching from me. What I did was appropriate guidance and correct course of action.
Why would we even allow the school to make us believe that our child is poor in a particular subject, especially if the school gives exams that are ridiculously difficult with unrealistically high standard? It is not even a true reflection of the actual capacity of the child in a national exam. -
Chenonceau:
I am sure it isn't just due to school's teaching. There is a measure of student effort in the equation. Nonetheless, this 40% compared to another school's 2% says something about the school. It cannot all be students.[/quote]NYPS has about 3 or 4? GEP classes. I would think that they form quite a significant amount of that 40% who score above 25X. Already some of the brightest from all over Singapore (whether poor or rich) congregegate in this school, and other GEP schools as well.
Are we sure that this 40% of NYPS who scores above 25X is the result of school's teaching ONLY and nothing esle? :scratchhead:chamonix:
[quote] 40% of NYPS scores above 25X. This is because the school tests hard and teaches a lot. This is school specific too I would imagine. School specificity is a poor excuse for the variance in quality delivered by across schools in Singapore wherein...
Well, I think why 40% of NYPS scores above 25X is because the parents (probably more than 70% of them) who got their children into this school are already kiasu themselves, and most probably would have given their children lots of enrichment/tuition before their children start P1. The school has no choice but to adjust and teach according to the majority students' ability, that's why the perceived high standard. -
sunflower:
(1) Better textbooks and a national database (like you suggested) will help the weaker teachers and raise standards overall.
Schools are operated by humans, not machines. It’s not possible to expect the same standard across all schools. MOE can give all schools the same hardware, but the software is largely determined by human factors, which include principals, teachers, type of students and parents. Some schools, like the one my DD2 is attending, takes in children from the neighbouhood, who are generally not well off. In fact, DD2 was telling me that only 3 raised up their hands when teacher asked who has tuition. However, the teachers in her school work hard to help every child, providing support to the weaker students. They don't push the kids away and ask them to go tuition, but instead round them up into small group teaching, and advise parents on how to give their childen the necessary support.
(2) There is no business in the world that does not depend on humans. EVEN in industries that rely heavily on robotics and equipment, the quality of service or products rely on humans. If MNCs can ensure consistency worldwide, what's so difficult about putting in processes to ensure consistency in Singapore schools? If restaurant chains (very dependent on humans) can ensure consistent quality from one end of Singapore to another... why is it impossible for schools to have a basic core consistency?
(3) Better textbooks and a national database for Teachers will help somewhat.sunflower:
:goodpost:This is pretty bad, wonder what school is that, or is this an isolated case? That's why it's important to know your child's potential, instead of relying on the school's results to determine/label your child. Quoting from Shop & Save: Mothers know best!
My own experience with my DD1: None of her school teachers discover her talent in a certain area, in fact, she quite consistently got a \"B\" for that subject. However, I was quite confident of her inert ability and supported her in that area. The final outcome proved me right. Oh, don't get me wrong, it was not tuition or teaching from me. What I did was appropriate guidance and correct course of action.
Why would we even allow the school to make us believe that our child is poor in a particular subject, especially if the school gives exams that are ridiculously difficult with unrealistically high standard? It is not even a true reflection of the actual capacity of the child in a national exam. -
Chenonceau:
Well, to overhaul our education system, there's a thing or two to learn from best practices of other countries.
Acknowledging that one is not perfect is not an excuse for not improving obvious flaws. Small classes unable to cope with a skills heavy syllabus. Lousy textbooks. School that over compete with each other. We don't need to look to Finland. We need only listen to parents.sunflower:
There is no one perfect education system, just like there is no ONE perfect government/political party. It is how we, the people, make the best out of it. Something to ponder: Finland's education system has been considered as one of the world's best by many, but look at their citizen's suicide rate, which is also one of the world's highest (within top 10). -
sunflower:
I don't dare say NYPS doesn't teach well. I won't know for sure. I do know they've great notes and very nice practice worksheets which points to an overall quality of education that is not present in my DS' school... and some other schools.
NYPS has about 3 or 4? GEP classes. I would think that they form quite a significant amount of that 40% who score above 25X. Already some of the brightest from all over Singapore (whether poor or rich) congregegate in this school, and other GEP schools as well. -
sunflower:
Well, to overhaul our education system, there's a thing or two to learn from best practices of other countries.[/quote]Yes? This is a self-evident truth to my mind. But well... did you not say that other systems also have problems... so, you still wanna learn from them? China has 60 per class. Finnish people commit suicide. So how?
Acknowledging that one is not perfect is not an excuse for not improving obvious flaws. Small classes unable to cope with a skills heavy syllabus. Lousy textbooks. School that over compete with each other. We don't need to look to Finland. We need only listen to parents.Chenonceau:
[quote=\"sunflower\"]
There is no one perfect education system, just like there is no ONE perfect government/political party. It is how we, the people, make the best out of it. Something to ponder: Finland's education system has been considered as one of the world's best by many, but look at their citizen's suicide rate, which is also one of the world's highest (within top 10).
I don't think I want an overhaul. I would like a reasoned review... not defensive press statements. I would like better textbooks and a national database for Teachers (as you suggested). I'm not sure this constitutes and overhaul.
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